Last time I made one of these threads it was a defensive combo of Dark Curse and Night Beast. Well, as great combos go, eventually my opponent found a good way around them. And of course as good strategists go I found a new combo, one that is considerably more offensive, though slightly pricier.

Mauler Mithel + Marksmanship (which I imagine is widely used already) (optional shield upgrade)

Winged Gundark (optional shield upgrade)

This combo has worked very well for me in the last few games, along with various other supporting members doing their own thing. Fly them as wingmen to each other. Fire on the same targets as much as you can, obviously. Since both abilities are range 1, stay tight and close (easy for any decent imperial pilot). At range 1 with 4 attack dice and a 75% chance before evades, Mauler is great at taking shields away, leaving Gundark open to pin some crits on the hulls.

This combo is ESPECIALLY dangerous to low-evade ships like the Y-Wing and YT-1300 when it's not flown by Chewbacca (who's HP are mostly hull… sweet, tender, juicy, critable hull), ships that may take hits and crits even if they do successfully roll to evade. It's also proven effective at depleting A-wing tokens, especially that pesky Tycho (though good luck getting that squirmy little chimp in range 1).

And yes, I am aware that the PS discrepancy can make it possible for someone to break them up before both get to fire (by killing one). That is why you keep giving them evade tokens until you're quite certain you've lined up a good shot.

Aw, no one liked my combo… Oh well. It worked for me well enough already.

I haven't tried that combination myself, the place where I played don't have too many players or the area, so we do things that are unique and half of the time, we don't do a full 100pt 1on1 game. it is more like 100pt vs 2 60pt players, or 2vs2 (200pt vs 200pt), etc...

I play interceptors more than the tie fighters. We did play a big ship vs big ship battle for fun, it was extremely fun, but I found out that a Lambda with an engine upgrade still gets out-maneuvered by the Firespray ship (the Firespray basically flies circles around the Lambda with no effort at all). I knew its dial was horrendously bad, but was curious on how bad the Lambda stacks up against other big ships even with an engine upgrade (it was still really really bad). Out of 8 rounds, only shot at the Slave-1 twice, the Firespray shot 5/8 times.

marksmanship is a very lousy upgrade to consider on mauler mithel. Also, in this game, crits are not scary at all

also, at range 1 the falcon will kill you before you even get to fire. watch Han deliver a string of 4 hits against your Mauler MIthel without any focus or evade tokens, and see how long he lasts

Durham, how constructive and helpful.the claim about Crits I presume is Trolling.haha, you guys...

I like Mauler, if nothing else people seem to either focus on killing him or completely ignore him.I have used marksman on him too but it didn't make a huge difference in that game.I can see how it could though...

Durham is right. Maybe PtL on Mauler would help him to survive until he got the chance to fire at range 1 ... but in general its just a waste of points to use any upgrades on mauler...

Maybe AR or VI are just right on Mauler, if you have a point left.

marksmanship is a very lousy upgrade to consider on mauler mithel. Also, in this game, crits are not scary at all

also, at range 1 the falcon will kill you before you even get to fire. watch Han deliver a string of 4 hits against your Mauler MIthel without any focus or evade tokens, and see how long he lasts

See, you say this but so far in 5 matches that have used a YT against me, it's gone down in flames in the second round of firing in 4 of them. In the one where i did lose, I didn't have Mauler on the board. I fly those two as an element, they aren't the only pieces on the board. That and I know my dials very very well, and use them accordingly.

Man, y'all keep saying "help him survive" but really I've had NO trouble keeping him alive long enough. He usually gets at least three attack rounds. The simple fact is that with others like Soontir or Howlrunner on the board the people i play with just don't see him as nearly as big a threat until it's too late.

marksmanship is a very lousy upgrade to consider on mauler mithel. Also, in this game, crits are not scary at all

also, at range 1 the falcon will kill you before you even get to fire. watch Han deliver a string of 4 hits against your Mauler MIthel without any focus or evade tokens, and see how long he lasts

See, you say this but so far in 5 matches that have used a YT against me, it's gone down in flames in the second round of firing in 4 of them. In the one where i did lose, I didn't have Mauler on the board. I fly those two as an element, they aren't the only pieces on the board. That and I know my dials very very well, and use them accordingly.

Man, y'all keep saying "help him survive" but really I've had NO trouble keeping him alive long enough. He usually gets at least three attack rounds. The simple fact is that with others like Soontir or Howlrunner on the board the people i play with just don't see him as nearly as big a threat until it's too late.

you need to fight opponents that dont fly straight into your formation at the start of the game.

They don't. I think you need to stop assuming you know things about my games. At the very least ask before you just assume something.

Anyway, the bottom line is that they work together as an element fairly well but at the same time I make other ships deadly as well, or i keep them out of the thick of things until it's time for a great critical strike. Until i'm absolutely sure they have a great tactical advantage i just take evades (which i'm fair certain i already made sure to mention).

I like the idea of running them together. Combined, the become a hefty range 1 threat, maybe even making your opponents attempt to stay out of range 1, which is where Ties tend to get 1 shotted the most. I like the idea of de on Mauler. For 21 pts he is harder to kill than a Rookie X wing, with a higher PS, and the same killing powe Range 1. Winged Gundark can also be very powerful when he has high PS support. I disagree about crits not being powerful. I've flown enough Bombers to know that one well timed Blinded Pilot or Munitions failure WILL lose you the game. Gundarks PS 5 is also good for fighting the all too common PS 4 rebel squads.

With that in mind, I would opt for PTL over marksmanship on Mauler, or run no upgrades. I much prefer having more options, especially since there are likely some shields left at PS 7.

Now the question is...is the combo of Winged Gundark + Mauler Mithel(with some sort of upgrade) for about 36pts better than 1 Bounty Hunter with recon spec, 36pts. Or even 3 Academy Ties at 36pts? Probably not, but that will depend strongly on the list. In some circumstances, it will.

ok, here's a few points to consider:

>> Crits are not at all scary, even when considering direct hits. The main reason for this is that the crits tend to be too specific in nature. Like if you hit a Academy TIE with damaged cockpit, injured pilot, munitions failure. They are irritating in that some do eat up actions trying to repair them, and damaged engine & blinded pilot are really big game changers, but otherwise on the whole crits do nothing much. On top of that, there are so many things in this game that affect crits. Chewbacca is immune to crits, shields are immune to crits, DrawTheirFire only affect crits, Determination could mean a +1 hp for the opponent, etcetc

>> Marksmanship has a very specific usage, namely in that it can affect multiple attacks. Hence things like marksmanship + gunner or marksmanship + cluster missiles is so effective. If used just like that, marksmanship is exactly the same as a focus, with the drawback that you cannot spend it on defense.

>> point cost. Mauler Mithel + Marksmanship and Winged gundark is a total of 35 points. 36 points gets you 3 academy TIEs. 33 points gets you a Bounty Hunter or Soontir + PTL + Stealth. I'd say sinking that much points into a single / a pair of TIEs isnt a good idea, especially when they can be OHKOed.

>> Speaking about OHKO, Falcons (not smugglers) and other base 3 atk ships love to OHKO TIEs, especially TIEs that do not have a focus or evade token to spend for defense. Even if they do have a token, gunner/luke on the falcon means they get a second attack against you, after you have already spent your tokens, so I really do not see how a pair of TIEs can take down a Falcon as easily as you claim.

>> For the TIE swarm, you should be doing massed focus instead of mass evades. The reasoning is simple: you do not know which TIE your opponent will fire at, so the rest of your TIEs that are not attacked now do not have a focus token to spend on their attacks, hence drastically reducing their firepower. Anyway, focus tokens can also be used for defense, so not too much of a issue there. The evade token should be used as a "please do not shoot me" signboard, like say if your TIE has no targets to shoot at, or if your TIE has only 1 hp left, or if you have that 1 TIE at range 1 of your opponents and all your other TIEs are at range 2 or further.

>> Winged Gundark's ability isnt that amazing. You have 3 attack dice at range 1, granted, but due to the lack of a targetlock, it is not as easy to get a string of 3 hits. On top of that, you still have to go through your opponent's defense rolls and his shields, and then still somehow survive the return fire at range 1.

>> Mauler Mithel has the same surviving issue, but his EPT allows you to play with stuff that can keep him alive, or at least let him fire before he dies. Determination, Adrenaline Rush, Veteran Instincts, PTL, Elusiveness comes to mind.

>> This game is extremely fast paced. Keeping ships out of the thick of things = they are not contributing their maximum potential in the combat = you are not dishing out enough hurt to your opponent. Sure, they are not shooting at your ship A, but they are shooting at your ship B, and its still your ship. While I agree that there are some specific strategies that require some of these tactics (eg. PTL TIEints disengaging the fight so that they can escape from firing arcs), but generally you want to deal out the maximum amount of damage to your opponent in the most efficient way, so that you can clear his ships off the table in the fastest possible time, so that they pose the minimum amount of threat to you. Dead ships cant do anything to you, except Fel's Wrath

They don't. I think you need to stop assuming you know things about my games. At the very least ask before you just assume something.

Anyway, the bottom line is that they work together as an element fairly well but at the same time I make other ships deadly as well, or i keep them out of the thick of things until it's time for a great critical strike. Until i'm absolutely sure they have a great tactical advantage i just take evades (which i'm fair certain i already made sure to mention).

They do work very well together, never mind the naysayers. Two other options you should consider for Mauler are Swarm Tactics and Push the Limit. I am playing Mauler (Swarm Tactics) + Winged Gundark in the Vassal tournament, and doing quite well. They are indeed a very painful 1-2 combo at range 1, especially if Howlrunner is there to improve accuracy. I believe you should reconsider Marksmanship, however, because with Mauler firing so early his hits are usually against shields (which you have noted) and he would be better served with a different Elite Pilot Talent.

Mauler (Swarm Tactics) + Gundark is especially good because the ST allows you to either:

1 - Increase Gundark to PS 7 so he can lay those crits in before a lower PS ship gets to attack (Mauler can still shoot first).

2 - Increase an Academy Pilot (or anyone else) to PS 7, so that they can help Mauler eliminate shields before Gundark finishes with Crits to the hull.

I am using Mauler (Swarm Tactics) + Winged Gundark + Black Squadron (Draw their Fire + Shield Upgrade) in the tournament. This allows me to ST up the Black Squadron if I need it (or one of my APs), and the Black also provides me with a significant increase in survivability for the entire group. This is a very solid 1-2-3 combination. Mix with Howlrunner, add two Academy Pilots to prevent my opponent from blocking me, and you have a very hard hitting swarm (though complicated to fly with the mixed Pilot Skills).

ok, here's a few points to consider:

>> Crits are not at all scary, even when considering direct hits. The main reason for this is that the crits tend to be too specific in nature. Like if you hit a Academy TIE with damaged cockpit, injured pilot, munitions failure. They are irritating in that some do eat up actions trying to repair them, and damaged engine & blinded pilot are really big game changers, but otherwise on the whole crits do nothing much. On top of that, there are so many things in this game that affect crits. Chewbacca is immune to crits, shields are immune to crits, DrawTheirFire only affect crits, Determination could mean a +1 hp for the opponent, etcetc

>> Marksmanship has a very specific usage, namely in that it can affect multiple attacks. Hence things like marksmanship + gunner or marksmanship + cluster missiles is so effective. If used just like that, marksmanship is exactly the same as a focus, with the drawback that you cannot spend it on defense.

>> point cost. Mauler Mithel + Marksmanship and Winged gundark is a total of 35 points. 36 points gets you 3 academy TIEs. 33 points gets you a Bounty Hunter or Soontir + PTL + Stealth. I'd say sinking that much points into a single / a pair of TIEs isnt a good idea, especially when they can be OHKOed.

>> Speaking about OHKO, Falcons (not smugglers) and other base 3 atk ships love to OHKO TIEs, especially TIEs that do not have a focus or evade token to spend for defense. Even if they do have a token, gunner/luke on the falcon means they get a second attack against you, after you have already spent your tokens, so I really do not see how a pair of TIEs can take down a Falcon as easily as you claim.

>> For the TIE swarm, you should be doing massed focus instead of mass evades. The reasoning is simple: you do not know which TIE your opponent will fire at, so the rest of your TIEs that are not attacked now do not have a focus token to spend on their attacks, hence drastically reducing their firepower. Anyway, focus tokens can also be used for defense, so not too much of a issue there. The evade token should be used as a "please do not shoot me" signboard, like say if your TIE has no targets to shoot at, or if your TIE has only 1 hp left, or if you have that 1 TIE at range 1 of your opponents and all your other TIEs are at range 2 or further.

>> Winged Gundark's ability isnt that amazing. You have 3 attack dice at range 1, granted, but due to the lack of a targetlock, it is not as easy to get a string of 3 hits. On top of that, you still have to go through your opponent's defense rolls and his shields, and then still somehow survive the return fire at range 1.

>> Mauler Mithel has the same surviving issue, but his EPT allows you to play with stuff that can keep him alive, or at least let him fire before he dies. Determination, Adrenaline Rush, Veteran Instincts, PTL, Elusiveness comes to mind.

>> This game is extremely fast paced. Keeping ships out of the thick of things = they are not contributing their maximum potential in the combat = you are not dishing out enough hurt to your opponent. Sure, they are not shooting at your ship A, but they are shooting at your ship B, and its still your ship. While I agree that there are some specific strategies that require some of these tactics (eg. PTL TIEints disengaging the fight so that they can escape from firing arcs), but generally you want to deal out the maximum amount of damage to your opponent in the most efficient way, so that you can clear his ships off the table in the fastest possible time, so that they pose the minimum amount of threat to you. Dead ships cant do anything to you, except Fel's Wrath

>> Crits can be pretty devastating. Direct Hit on an A-wing is a death sentence, Stunned Pilot can be deadly in an asteroid field (which is where most games are played these days), Munitions Failure makes every TIE Bomber and B-wing player cringe (especially if they happen to lose their HLC), Structural Damage can make a YT-1300 pilot's day *extremely* bad . . . Nobody in their right mind would *depend* on them, but nobody would ever say they're worthless in this game, either. You can't get rid of 3/4 of them, and many of them can give you the edge you might need to win.

>>It is not the same as a focus. It can give you crits that a focus action cannot, so it's an "enhanced focus". Essentially it's a low-power, reusable proton torpedo which costs less than a torpedo and is more reliable.

>>It all entirely depends on play style. If you're going for quantity vs. quality, then yes, buying two for the cost of three is a bad idea. But that's not his goal, so your criticism is lost on it.

>>What makes you think he wouldn't maneuver so that he maximizes his chances of surviving? TIE Pilots are good at that. They have to be if they want to survive at all, and you assume he's going to take Marksmanship every single time. Nobody would ever do that. They would evaluate which action would grant the greatest tactical advantage and go for that. Marksmanship doesn't take away your option to evade, so if he needed to, he could.

>>You're assuming he wants to play a game of defense, when everyone knows the TIE Interceptor is the king of defense. His build maximizes the chances of getting a crit, and if he can have success at it, then he's obviously doing something right in terms of defense. And you can be reasonably assured they will fire at the pilot who has the most effective ability, which means you can control their actions somewhat and guess which fighter they will fire at.

>>You say that, but Winged Gundark has come through for me plenty of times. His ability to fire three attack dice gives him a slight edge over the X-wing at range 1, which any TIE Fighter has, but he has the potential to cause more harm through crits. Any advantage, no matter how small, is still an advantage.

>>Determination only affects crits (funny how you were trying to make crits sound bad earlier in your argument), Adrenaline Rush is only good for one round, Veteran Instincts is worthless on the second-highest PS TIE Pilot, and Elusiveness is purely defensive when he clearly is trying to build an offensive list. Push the Limit is good, but then it's always good. Did you even think before you suggested those?

>>Keeping your ships out of attack range is the key to survival, yes, but your previous few arguments against this list were mostly centered around trying to turn it into a defensive one. Which is it? Do you want him to make his list more defensive, or offensive? Because Marksmanship is a good offensive upgrade. It's not as much of a powerhouse as PTL, but then if he likes it, why mess with it? If you want him to deal out maximum damage, TIE Interceptors are a good bet, but this list is not an Interceptor list.

TL;DR, your points are vapid and your arguments invalid and self-contradictory. Do some research and try to come up with *helpful* suggestions rather than mere criticism.

I like the idea of running them together. Combined, the become a hefty range 1 threat, maybe even making your opponents attempt to stay out of range 1, which is where Ties tend to get 1 shotted the most. I like the idea of de on Mauler. For 21 pts he is harder to kill than a Rookie X wing, with a higher PS, and the same killing powe Range 1. Winged Gundark can also be very powerful when he has high PS support. I disagree about crits not being powerful. I've flown enough Bombers to know that one well timed Blinded Pilot or Munitions failure WILL lose you the game. Gundarks PS 5 is also good for fighting the all too common PS 4 rebel squads.

With that in mind, I would opt for PTL over marksmanship on Mauler, or run no upgrades. I much prefer having more options, especially since there are likely some shields left at PS 7.

Now the question is...is the combo of Winged Gundark + Mauler Mithel(with some sort of upgrade) for about 36pts better than 1 Bounty Hunter with recon spec, 36pts. Or even 3 Academy Ties at 36pts? Probably not, but that will depend strongly on the list. In some circumstances, it will.

As for your last point, i'm not really sure. It could just be taste. I'm not particularly keen on the firesprays yet. However, It does spread your combat effectiveness across two ships. Two targets each with three evade dice might stay alive longer than one big target with only 2. They can also turn much tighter and barrel roll, which can help you once you've engaged close range. Dude can say crits are 'meh' all he wants, if you take this salvo one time it can hurt. If the TIEs kick your arse in a turn fight and do it twice in a row you're likely down at least one pilot. And if someone does happen to kill one of them, you've still got the other to do something. Whether that something is to keep using them as is, or treat them as expendable and run them around as blockers (especially since when presented with the two, people will likely focus on Mauler first). But really i think it just comes down to taste and what you like to do.

@Millennium Falsehood, thank you for that point by point. It really saves me a lot of time. I would also like to point out the fact that yes, PtL is great. That's why I have it on Soontir Fel. Who also made it into all those games.

@Kinetic, oh no worries dude. I am not really paying this "naysayer" any mind. He can go on about how much of a failure this combo is all he wants, but i know this: Of the last 4 games i played, i won 3. Of those 3, this combo was in two of them. Of those 2, both members of the combo survived to the end and dealt pretty serious damage.

and lastly @Duraham, i really don't understand your vehemence here. I should think that the title of this thread, with it's "BFFs Forevers" in it would set the tone as rather lighthearted. I'm just that kind of guy. But really, this combo is MODULAR. You know, as in one small component that fits easily into a variety of larger components. It's not the centerpiece of the whole thing. It's just two great things that go great together. If you don't like it, great. Good for you. Don't fly it. But certainly don't make the error in assuming that I don't know how to fly a TIE. I'm straight up Imperial, it's all I do. I'm telling you right now, with my play style they work very well. The great thing about them is in combination with the rest of the squad they serve a great feint purpose: if you gun for Soontir and ignore them, they get to do as i want them to. If you gun for them and ignore the rest of my squad, then I'll just use that against you too. If you try to split off and engage this element AND the rest of the squad, then you've just likely split an already inferior numbered force (assuming you're Rebels) and i'm going to really rip you apart (you as in anyone, not just YOU you). And if you're flying Imperials against these guys, then you can toss any chance at defending your "crits don't matter" statement out the gorram window.