On page 25 of "Enter the Unknown", in the Archaeologist specialization, is the "Pin" talent:

"Take Pin action; make an Opposed Athletics check to immobilize an engaged opponent until the end of the character's next turn. Spend Triumph to extend duration one round."

It's on the bottom row so it's quite expensive and requires a good amount of training to reach.

What if somebody wants to immobilize an engaged opponent but they don't have the Pin talent?

In an early adventure with my group, the Wookiee character wanted to grab somebody during a fight and hold them in place.

I figured that sounded like a job for an opposed check--I think I used Athletics, though it may have been Brawl.

I'm just confused by how you'd handle this if you *didn't* have the Pin talent, because to me the description of the Pin talent just sounds like how you'd handle this for any character who wanted to grab another character.

What am I missing?

The standard method is to use Brawl and inflict Strain. When it exceeds the target's ST (or WT for those without ST) then they are taken out. If you want to describe that as a wrestling hold, that's fine.

I completely agree with your confusion. This was discussed recently in another thread.

Without having to house rule the new Pin talent (something I hate doing) perhaps create a way for others to do the same, although not as well?

A person without the Pin talent can attempt the same opposed Athletics check to immobilize someone until his next turn, but does so with 2 Setback thrown in? The person with the Pin talent makes the same check, but without Setback.

The standard method is to use Brawl and inflict Strain. When it exceeds the target's ST (or WT for those without ST) then they are taken out. If you want to describe that as a wrestling hold, that's fine.

When the person lets go, will the pinned person suddenly get his Strain back?

I'll check the rulebook, but does the standard method cover actually keeping the target from moving?

In our case, the Wookiee wanted to keep the target from moving rather than specifically do damage to them. This sounds like the Pin talent, but I'm curious how you'd play this without Pin.

I completely agree with your confusion. This was discussed recently in another thread.

Without having to house rule the new Pin talent (something I hate doing) perhaps create a way for others to do the same, although not as well?

A person without the Pin talent can attempt the same opposed Athletics check to immobilize someone until his next turn, but does so with 2 Setback thrown in? The person with the Pin talent makes the same check, but without Setback.

I'd be down with there being a way to grab and hold somebody but expose yourself to easier attacks--to downgrade the difficulty of attacks against you, or something like that.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was already covered somehow, but I haven't come across the details.

In the how to spend Triumphs and Advantages table it describes how they can be used to when dealing damage, instead of dealing damage player can elect to disable the target or a piece of equipment. Kind of right about what you are looking for i'd say. Pin is just far more effective duration wise.

The standard method is to use Brawl and inflict Strain. When it exceeds the target's ST (or WT for those without ST) then they are taken out. If you want to describe that as a wrestling hold, that's fine.

When the person lets go, will the pinned person suddenly get his Strain back?

Nope. Strain recovers as normal, so make that a maybe (the opponent can roll Cool or Discipline if you release him at the end of the encounter).

The standard method is to use Brawl and inflict Strain. When it exceeds the target's ST (or WT for those without ST) then they are taken out. If you want to describe that as a wrestling hold, that's fine.

When the person lets go, will the pinned person suddenly get his Strain back?

Nope. Strain recovers as normal, so make that a maybe (the opponent can roll Cool or Discipline if you release him at the end of the encounter).

So a person is "pinned" down narratively speaking using loss of Strain. The pinner says "he lets go" after a turn. Combat is still going on. The Encounter is not over, so no Cool or Discipline checks. Since the person is without Strain, the pinned person is now "unconscious" or "completely unaware of his surroundings and unable to interact with them" per RAW. That doesn't sound like a person that was only held down by someone for a few moments.

Thus, some of us want something to describe a temporary hold that doesn't cause long term Wounds/Strain. Just like what the designers had in mind with the Pin Talent. Why did they make a Pin Talent if it wasn't needed due to Strain handling it?

I'm not arguing that the Pin talent doesn't do a better job, but it's not commonly available.

For everyone else, they can make a Brawl test and spend a Triumph or three Advantages each turn to maintain a hold (temporarily disable) a target. Damaging the target is optional.

I'm not arguing that the Pin talent doesn't do a better job, but it's not commonly available.

For everyone else, they can make a Brawl test and spend a Triumph or three Advantages each turn to maintain a hold (temporarily disable) a target. Damaging the target is optional.

HappyDaze please know that I appreciate this back and forth, I learn from it, and I don't consider it an argument at all.

Are you speaking of a house rule or the Disorient 1 and Knockdown traits of an unarmed Brawl attack? Disorient for 2 Advantage simply makes the target add 1 Setback for a turn. Knockdown for 2 Advantage (assuming character sized target) knocks a person prone. While those help with my personal conundrum, neither is really describing a grapple or pin.

My second try at a house rule. Add an addendum to the Ensnare quality (page 156). As is, Ensnare is a weapon trait for things like nets and bolas. When activiated with 2 Advantages, it causes the target to be Immobilized for a number of rounds equal to the Ensnare rating. Without getting into details, Immobilized restricts the target from performing Maneuvers (can perform Actions) and is also the result of the Pin Talent. The target is allowed an (unopposed) Athletics (hard) check to break free from the Ensnare, slipping or breaking the ropes.

So, add an Ensnare 1 quality to an unarmed Brawl attack. But, since it isn't a weapon (no ropes, etc), add an addendum to the Ensnare quailty -

"If activated as part of an unarmed attack, the brawler must make an immediate opposed Athletics check to successfully Immobilize the target. Also, the Athletics check for the target to slip free during his/her action is opposed, not Hard".

Note that unarmed attacks would be gaining only Ensnare 1, so the Immobilization lasts only 1 round, possibly sooner if the target breaks free on his own turn. The brawler would need to keep rolling 2 Advantages as part of a Brawl action each round followed by successful Athletics checks to keep the target Immobilized. The Brawl action itself could be causing Wounds or Strain each round, which simulates someone beating or choking out someone they've grappled/pinned.

The Pin Talent then becomes the same thing as an unarmed Ensnare 1, but it can be done at will without a Brawl attack and 2 Advantages. That's a significant bonus over a person without the talent.

On page 25 of "Enter the Unknown", in the Archaeologist specialization, is the "Pin" talent:

"Take Pin action; make an Opposed Athletics check to immobilize an engaged opponent until the end of the character's next turn. Spend Triumph to extend duration one round."

It's on the bottom row so it's quite expensive and requires a good amount of training to reach.

What if somebody wants to immobilize an engaged opponent but they don't have the Pin talent?

In an early adventure with my group, the Wookiee character wanted to grab somebody during a fight and hold them in place.

I figured that sounded like a job for an opposed check--I think I used Athletics, though it may have been Brawl.

I'm just confused by how you'd handle this if you *didn't* have the Pin talent, because to me the description of the Pin talent just sounds like how you'd handle this for any character who wanted to grab another character.

What am I missing?

First off, this talent allows the Character to use Agility instead of Brawn. Also, If successful on the Pin attempt, I also allow the character with the Pin talent to deal damage for each success rolled, and a Critical hit if they roll a Triumph (or the extra round immobilization). Think of Pin as using an opponents weight against them like in some form of Martial Arts (Hence the Agility roll and not Brawn). If a character who doesnt have the Pin talent attempts to immobilize their target, its a Brawn check (as per rules written in the core rulebook) but without allowing damage for successes and cant deal Criticals on Triumphs as they are simply trying to immobilize the target.

Note: I dont allow any character to use any Other skill but Brawn when in Brawl combat because it is talents that determine if a character has any sort of special training in hand to hand combat beyond the average 'Fisticuffs'.

We actually had a scenario last night where the PCs grabbed a sentry.

Our mechanic charged him with a brawl attack. It didn't score enough hits to break soak, but he had enough advantage for the knockdown, so I narrated it as a hold. I figured, if the sentry made it to his next turn, he'll just break it with a maneuver (a.k.a. "stand up") and then run for reinforcements.

Fortunately for the group, it never got that far. On the next turn, the muscle closed in, gave a single punch (with a boost from "prone") and the sentry crumpled over in the mechanic's arms.

I think knockdown works well as a poor-man's pin.

I'm not arguing that the Pin talent doesn't do a better job, but it's not commonly available.

For everyone else, they can make a Brawl test and spend a Triumph or three Advantages each turn to maintain a hold (temporarily disable) a target. Damaging the target is optional.

HappyDaze please know that I appreciate this back and forth, I learn from it, and I don't consider it an argument at all.

Are you speaking of a house rule or the Disorient 1 and Knockdown traits of an unarmed Brawl attack? Disorient for 2 Advantage simply makes the target add 1 Setback for a turn. Knockdown for 2 Advantage (assuming character sized target) knocks a person prone. While those help with my personal conundrum, neither is really describing a grapple or pin.

My second try at a house rule. Add an addendum to the Ensnare quality (page 156). As is, Ensnare is a weapon trait for things like nets and bolas. When activiated with 2 Advantages, it causes the target to be Immobilized for a number of rounds equal to the Ensnare rating. Without getting into details, Immobilized restricts the target from performing Maneuvers (can perform Actions) and is also the result of the Pin Talent. The target is allowed an (unopposed) Athletics (hard) check to break free from the Ensnare, slipping or breaking the ropes.

So, add an Ensnare 1 quality to an unarmed Brawl attack. But, since it isn't a weapon (no ropes, etc), add an addendum to the Ensnare quailty -

"If activated as part of an unarmed attack, the brawler must make an immediate opposed Athletics check to successfully Immobilize the target. Also, the Athletics check for the target to slip free during his/her action is opposed, not Hard".

Note that unarmed attacks would be gaining only Ensnare 1, so the Immobilization lasts only 1 round, possibly sooner if the target breaks free on his own turn. The brawler would need to keep rolling 2 Advantages as part of a Brawl action each round followed by successful Athletics checks to keep the target Immobilized. The Brawl action itself could be causing Wounds or Strain each round, which simulates someone beating or choking out someone they've grappled/pinned.

The Pin Talent then becomes the same thing as an unarmed Ensnare 1, but it can be done at will without a Brawl attack and 2 Advantages. That's a significant bonus over a person without the talent.

Its neither a house rule nor a trait of the weapon. Look at the chart in the GM's screen for possible uses of Advantages and Triumphs. At the 3A/1T level you can temporarily disable an opponent instead of inflicting damage. Restraining a target with a Brawl attack seems like a perfectly reasonable use of this option.

I'll say too, that it if it really bothered my players that the Archaeologist was the only one with the Pin talent, I'd be amenable to house-ruling it somewhere into Gadgeteer, Bodyguard, or Mechanic. Those, to me, seem like the best candidates for this addition.

I'm satisfied with using a Brawl check and if you get three Advantages or a Triumph, you can hold the target in place. Works for me!

I also think it's a bit odd that Archaeologist has the "Pin" talent but Marauder et al don't, but they probably didn't think of it til those were already written.

I rather Pin be an Action anyone can do, and just make the Pin talent give a bonus of some kind. The game is designed so Strain attacks can be punching, kicking, wrestling or even name calling. Narratively speaking once the opponent is out of strain (or wounds since most opponents don't have strain) they have given up the fight. That being said, there is no reason why you can't spend advantages to basically immobilize your opponent until they give up the fight.

We all have to face it that every game either has to be accepted as is or we can take it and make house rules that we think need. A lot of times it's because we are too used to more tactical games and can't always grasp the EotE is trying to add Cinematics that defy the real world because of the fun factor.

Its neither a house rule nor a trait of the weapon. Look at the chart in the GM's screen for possible uses of Advantages and Triumphs. At the 3A/1T level you can temporarily disable an opponent instead of inflicting damage. Restraining a target with a Brawl attack seems like a perfectly reasonable use of this option.

Thanks. I will keep this in mind during play. This could solve my issues.

I also think it's a bit odd that Archaeologist has the "Pin" talent but Marauder et al don't, but they probably didn't think of it til those were already written.

I would think Bounty Hunter would have such a talent before anyone. Under "Bounty Hunter's Role" on page 56 it states, "will do whatever it takes to catch their quarries". Pin seems like the perfect talent for a Bounty Hunter wishing to catch a live target.

After further reading, I wish FFG treated this talent the same as the "Knockdown" talent for the Marauder because it doesnt seem very well thought out..

So, are attacks supposed to be generalized and let advantages and triumphs determine if you can do things like immobilize a target? This is something you cant attempt ahead of time before rolling your attack? How is everybody else doing it? Because this is the impression i am getting with rules as written.

Here's what I'd do:

The PC says "I want to grab that guy and hold him in place."

The GM says: "Ok, make a Brawl skill check. If you get 3 Advantages or a Triumph you can hold him in place in lieu of doing damage. Otherwise you can just do damage to him."

The PC rolls 2 successes and 2 advantage.

The PC says: "I grapple with the thug, trying to get the upper hand on him, but he squeezes out of my grasp. As he tries to duck away from me I land a kick to his side. With my Brawn I do 5 points of Strain damage."

Or:

The PC rolls 1 success and 3 advantage.

The PC says: "I grapple with the thug, and lock him in a hold from behind, keeping him from moving. No damage but he's immobilized on his next turn."

Like that...

Here's what I'd do:

The PC says "I want to grab that guy and hold him in place."

The GM says: "Ok, make a Brawl skill check. If you get 3 Advantages or a Triumph you can hold him in place in lieu of doing damage. Otherwise you can just do damage to him."

The PC rolls 2 successes and 2 advantage.

The PC says: "I grapple with the thug, trying to get the upper hand on him, but he squeezes out of my grasp. As he tries to duck away from me I land a kick to his side. With my Brawn I do 5 points of Strain damage."

Or:

The PC rolls 1 success and 3 advantage.

The PC says: "I grapple with the thug, and lock him in a hold from behind, keeping him from moving. No damage but he's immobilized on his next turn."

Like that...

This has become my impression as well and by doing it this way it avoids all the convoluted rules for disarming, knockout calls, etc that i have experienced in most RPGs.

must admit that this talent and the one that allows knockdown are my least favourite part of EotE. They seem to work against the narrative abstract freedom the rest of the game is designed to achieve. if characters roll well enough and it makes narrative sense then describing someone as being knocked down or pinned should just happen.

i had a character coerce an opponent, they rolled a lot of advantage and described the opponent as physically reeling backwards and falling to the ground. i allowed it, because it was cinematic, fun and character building. yet at the same time it diminishes the value of other players expending XP to get access to a talent