Using proxies for min/maxing in that way is a bad habit which occurs in most gaming genres from pen&paper to computer games and isn't something one has to support.

X-Wing is a inherently competitive game, same as Chess, Warhammer 40k or Monopoly. Anyone who plays a list that isn't the best it can, or flys it with less skill then they can is not doing the other person a favor, they're doing nothing more then cheapening the win.

If that means I have to proxie a few cards because I won't spend $60 on ships I don't want... So be it. But that is hardly the same thing as saying I'll start to use paper cutouts to represent ships I don't even own. The Slippery Slope argument is considered a logical fallacy for reason.

my point is, that there is no slope slippery or otherwise, the only difference in what you allow as proxies is how much work you have to put in to create them.

In particular when considering your argument of cheapening the win, why stop someone from using a paper model for the models he doesn't have if he can't have otherwise the best list he wants to field?

From my perspective, when you want to allow proxies (for which there might be useful cases) all further limits (upgrades yes but no pilots, or just cards no ships) are arbitrary and very subjective in definition.

it has been said before, that one doesn't want have a pay-to-win scenario, right?

But consider, from the point where there were non-mandatory expansions it has been pay to win, at least if you don't allow proxies for everything. I don't think you can field a competitive list with one x-wing or two tie fighter, regardless how many cards you proxy. (if you think of the starter as the mandatory game)

As I said before, I have no problems with using proxies or not using them (depending on the situation), but I just don't see a difference between ship and card proxies, that artificial line doesn't work for me gameplay-wise.

Sure, for the visual style it's nicer to have the original ships.

Proxy?

I'm under the impression we are all "collectors" at the base level. At some point we will have enough income saved at some point to own at the very least 1 of every expansion created ; for the cards and/or the models.

With that, limited proxies, I would say are valid. I have more Cardboard Ship Bases than I have models for them, likewise more Base Stands than correct models. As much as the model on the stand matters; the information on the Base is what corresponds with the pilot card that matters more. The model is just a quick-reference for both players so they don't need to examine the base before referring to the correct pilot card.

Would I play against someone using proxies for a WAAC build?

Sure, on the conditions ALL Pilot Cards, Ship Bases, and Base Stands are Official AND Upgrade proxies have 1 official copy between the multiples.

The amount of investment into the game should reflect how much they're willing to Win At All Costs to a degree. Also the "Right to Veto" the build the next day we play IF part of the proxies aren't replaced.

Would I play against someone using proxies for build testing?

Yes, Provided Official Base Stands were used, AND Upgrade proxies have 1 official copy between the multiples.

Again the "Right to Veto" the build the next day we play IF part of the proxies aren't replaced.

Would I play against someone new to the game using proxies? (starter + 1-2 expansions)

No, but I'd gladly lend them my models and cards they wanted to test-drive. depending on how I feel I may even challenge them to beat me with what they had and go halfsies on an expansion.

Would I play against someone using proxies in a Tournament-League Setting?

Most likely No. The only Latitude I would give is the Model on the Base Stand can be a proxy but must be an Official FFG model. Everything else must be Official.

A company cannot produce new content IF they cannot afford to pay their content creators. And if the End-User cannot support the company through purchases how can the company pay it's employees for content?

Would I play against a friend using proxies?

No. Not unless it is for tournament preparation or their Tracker ID shows " en route ". If they're heading off to a Tournament i know they'll be buying or borrowing what they need some time before they're off. Otherwise no, sure it sounds unfriendly but...

The most epic games I've played with friends were the ones upsetting a WAAC "cookie-cutter" build with an unconventional list + upgrades.

Limiting yourself to official copies owned adds value to cards you thought were pointless. You will only find the best use for them by using them.. Adrenaline Rush might even become your Go-To-EPT over PTL. (lol, right?)

Proxying while revealing to use how good multiples of a certain card/ship is, also Shuts our Eyes to how cool the "junk" sitting in our card/model cases actually are because all we read on the forums are about the WAAC stuff. Sure winning is fun but an Unconventional Upset is Epic; It's almost like Ewoks... or a ventilation shaft leading straight towards the main reactor.

Simply knowing the odds are stacked against you and pulling off a win IS the story of the Rebellion vs. the Empire.

So can we boil it down to the ONLY reason folks use proxies is because they cant afford the official item??? or is it more along the lines that they DON'T want to purchase the official item???

So can we boil it down to the ONLY reason folks use proxies is because they cant afford the official item??? or is it more along the lines that they DON'T want to purchase the official item???

50/50, I might be able to afford 5 Interceptors and 2 packs of Imperial Aces to get all the cards to run 5 Avengers or 4 Emperors Guard. But to be honest I don't want 9 Interceptors to be able to run all builds, (seeing as I could only run 5 of them at a time). But it's going to get even worse, What if you want to run a Bomber list with Flachette missiles, from what I can see they are not unique and you get 1 in a transport.

I think there is a point where you go, I have a huge collection of models, enough to run most lists, but I still have huge gaps in my upgrades because I'm not willing to buy 4 transports, because what you get has to be worth the money, your first transport is worth it for the ships and the cards, buying a 4th when you don't think you will use more than 2 transports means your paying $50+ dollars for 1 card. If I wanted to do that I would be playing Magic the Gathering. I'm playing X-Wing for the models and the space combat, not for a piece of card.

Similarly, I might want to try out all these wonderful 3-4 Shuttle builds that are out there. But is it worth $50+ to me to get all the Shuttles I need, when in all probability I may use a 4 Shuttle list 1 or 2 times. Or would that money be better spent on taking my Girlfriend out for dinner, or getting a couple more B-Wings.

you know i could almost see that logic for using proxy flechette missiles when it comes to the transport...i think FFG did that on purpose because other wise who would buy the transport!! but personally I plan on just buying one or maybe two and playing what i got.. otoh i just realized i now need one more shuttle..lol i don't know HOW I missed a 4 shuttle 100 point squad!! which is how I based my collection more or less... Kind of went over board On Ys and intercepters....

Or would that money be better spent on taking my Girlfriend out for dinner, or getting a couple more B-Wings.

The right awnser is B-wings right?

I guess people like to have all the options eventhough they will probably only play it once. I like the collecable part, after a game I have something to want. If I would have it all and played the best cominations, I would not have anything to want and get bored.

So can we boil it down to the ONLY reason folks use proxies is because they cant afford the official item??? or is it more along the lines that they DON'T want to purchase the official item???

For me the line is this.

Will I use that model in a game or not. I don't mind the doomcow, but I'm still not a fan. So I don't see myself ever running a 4 Shuttle list. I simply will not buy a model for the sake of the cardboard that comes with it.