When I was a young pup and Mechwarrior was a big hit, I certainly didn't have as much discretionary income as I would have liked. I loved that game, but it was pretty expensive for me.

I didn't get an allowance; I did chores around the house for money. I would get maybe $10 for mowing the front and back lawns, $10 for sweeping the floor in the living room . . . I also had a sister, who often liked to underbid me for jobs and get them done before I did. Needless to say, I didn't get much money to play with.

But I still decided I was dedicated enough to the game to buy the miniatures. I would also play with my friends' minis and trade the factions I didn't want for the ones I did (Dragon's Fury ftw, btw). If I had wanted to, I could have photocopied the clix dials and made cardboard versions, and then built up the little paper models that occupy a sizeable chunk of my hard drive for proxies. But I didn't want to. Firstly, I felt it made me look too cheap to buy the miniatures, but I also didn't think the proxies looked as good as the real thing and wouldn't have been as valuable to me. So I typically bought the minis whenever I went to the book store with whatever money I had to spend on them. I managed to build up a pretty sizable army over time, even with getting maybe $5-10/week on average.

I'm not saying you should dedicate your life and income to X-wing. I'm saying that while I was more than able to afford a collectible miniatures game, it was within my means. If X-wing is not within your means, then don't buy it. Build those awesome little paper miniatures from Momir Farooq's website, or maybe use Galoob Micro Machines (you can get many of them on eBay for next to nothing) or even 2D cardstock cutouts. Judge what this game means to you, and spend however much - or little - you want to on the game.

In short, do what you can. It's all you can do.

And if you ever play me, don't be afraid to ask to borrow my minis if you don't want to proxy.

The implication is that there are bad cards included in other releases that fail to make those appealing, which wouldn't be good business sense!

No there are few bad cards out there, but those are all in the fighters that people will typically want 4+ of because you can use 4+ of them in a given list.

Do you honestly think none of the play testers figured out the advanced sensors + B-Wing combo?

And if that person has used their money then they're poorer for it since I don't think it's in the spirit of the game to equip every ship with PTL and stealth upgrade - regardless of whether these are bought cards or proxies.

I'm not sure what you think the spirit of the game is, but clearly you have a different idea of it then most everyone else who I've played or seen posting here.

The spirit of the game is to build a list within the rules that has the best chance of winning that you can manage. That doesn't mean every list will be tourney worthy, there's room for the 4 Tie Advanced list, because that might be fun. But the very idea you shouldn't add in upgrades that make the list better is silly at best.

The spirit of the game is to build a list within the rules that has the best chance of winning that you can manage . That doesn't mean every list will be tourney worthy, there's room for the 4 Tie Advanced list, because that might be fun. But the very idea you shouldn't add in upgrades that make the list better is silly at best.

Interesting that you would phrase it like that since using proxies is emphatically outside the realm of what you can manage.

For me, the spirit of the game is to have fun across a wide variety of styles and scenarios, and part of the design says to me that it's about making choices - points, unique pilots, unique cards, and cards that are fewer in number than others all create an environment of making tough choices; "I can either take this or that, or I have only one of these so does Luke get it or Wedge". It seems to me that many advocates for proxies are those wishing for duplicates of cards they already have with the intention of removing a layer of choice from the game in order to maximise their chances of winning vs just playing. I bet some would use multiple R2-D2s if they could. 'Fly casual' is a commonly repeated mantra in the X-wing community, I don't think it means "create superlist and win" or "use the same cards on every ship as popularised by the meta-game/forums".

I appreciate that many players are in it for the win and for the statistical analysis and search for the Perfect Squad, but I would have thought winning by skill is better than winning by card exploits (especially if you don't even own the cards).

I appreciate that many players are in it for the win and for the statistical analysis and search for the Perfect Squad, but I would have thought winning by skill is better than winning by card exploits (especially if you don't even own the cards).

So what you are saying that winning by skill is better than winning by card exploits (which you claim using cards you don't own is an exploit)

But your fine with winning because you can buy 4 shuttles, which I think has very little to do with Skill.

in a casual game you can get away with any modification of the rule set (if we take the tournament rules as the strictest basis), it's basically a matter of agreeing with the other player on the set of modifications (no matter if it is proxies, house rules or other variations)

In a friendly game where one side provides all the material for example, it might make even sense to increase the pool by proxy cards even if you have enough ships.

If you can't agree on a modified rule set, you fall back to the strict version, simple as that.

on tournaments the organizer can say what the house rules are and you agree or you walk.

personally, I'm not a fan of proxies, since part of the list building is also making due with what you have, and given the possible lists you can generate even with a limited supply of expansions, it isn't even that much of a limitation.

Using proxies for min/maxing in that way is a bad habit which occurs in most gaming genres from pen&paper to computer games and isn't something one has to support.

The other issue I have with proxies is, that once you start, the allowed line for what proxies are allowed is arbitrary to a degree, where it isn't really there anymore. In theory you could download the rulebook and create the rest in paper, which isn't really the idea of the game.

The other issue I have with proxies is, that once you start, the allowed line for what proxies are allowed is arbitrary to a degree, where it isn't really there anymore. In theory you could download the rulebook and create the rest in paper, which isn't really the idea of the game.

Isn't that the same arguement that is being made against *** rights... If you allow two blokes to marry it's a gateway for people marrying ducks and stuff like that..

I don't like just the tip of the iceberg arguments, they quickly end up silly. (Leaflets with pictures of Ducks giving the Breath of Life silly. though the duck may on second thought be snogging the guy, that would make more sense. )

but I would have thought winning by skill is better than winning by card exploits (especially if you don't even own the cards).

So buying 4 shuttles so you can have 4 B-Wings with Advanced Sensors is an exploit?

Clearly you're opinion on what Fly Casual or the spirit of the game is, is way, way different then most others.

This has nothing to do with winning at all costs, or exploiting the rules, it's about building the best list you can with in the rules, and flying it with as much skill as you can. Beating someone with a bad list is not a fun way to win, and is not a fun way to lose. Which makes for a game that is not fun.

When I play, I bring a list that I think will be fun to fly, and has the best chance of winning I can manage with that list. I then fly it to the best of my abilities, and expect the other guy to do the same. Doing that does not go against the spirit of Fly Casual and in on way goes against the spirit of the game. Fly Casual is an attitude in which winning is important but not as important and having fun. Flying a bad list is not fun for either side.

Using proxies for min/maxing in that way is a bad habit which occurs in most gaming genres from pen&paper to computer games and isn't something one has to support.

X-Wing is a inherently competitive game, same as Chess, Warhammer 40k or Monopoly. Anyone who plays a list that isn't the best it can, or flys it with less skill then they can is not doing the other person a favor, they're doing nothing more then cheapening the win.

If that means I have to proxie a few cards because I won't spend $60 on ships I don't want... So be it. But that is hardly the same thing as saying I'll start to use paper cutouts to represent ships I don't even own. The Slippery Slope argument is considered a logical fallacy for reason.

So I am saving a bit for Empire models as I have none. It is ok to start with less, and if you really want that card...just save some money for a couple of weeks/months and get it, because do you really need that B-wing right now?

(and now to the douchbag part) If you do not even have the money to save up for a luxury product you should not be playing this game...instead you should be investing on living. You can always ask a friend to borrow his mini's for playing a game.

I'm sorry but i am a minor, I can't get a Job yet i live with my parents (as all minors do) so the price of living for ME is close to nothing. But i have EXTREMELY low income compared to most of you and therefore can't spend $150 at any given moment on a board game. So yes i can't afford to buy all the ships without waiting a year or so! So does that mean i shouldn't be playing this game?

Think about the text more before making a post.

No please read before you post a relply.

You should not be buying this game if you are living by the skin of your teeth. However you can borrow some ships from someone for that game, you can play on Vassal or... (i know crazy!) you wait and have the patience and collect your ships a bit more slowly.

As an example:

I meet you IRL. We meet for a game, you need a couple of extra ships for 100pts, I borrow you some of my ships. We play a game. Voila!

I meet you IRL. We meet for a game, you need a couple of extra ships, then add your 4 proxied advanced sensors cards. I walk away. Voila!

EH WHAT? Really, you shouldn't spend on gaming if you are living by the skin of your teeth? He is a kid but he (and anyone else) can spend their disposable income on whatever the heck they like!

EH WHAT? Really, you shouldn't spend on gaming if you are living by the skin of your teeth? He is a kid but he (and anyone else) can spend their disposable income on whatever the heck they like!

Good point. Note that this point is just my opinion and I am absolutely not telling anyone what to do. (my bad)

There are some serious entitlement issues going on here. When will people learn to be happy with what they've got?

A little late to the discussion, so perhaps this has gone off else where. However, I'm of the I'd allow it for checking new builds. Some cards are hard to get ahold of, and as long as the other person is looking for getting the cards that is fine for me. If every game it was tons of proxies I may get annoyed at a point as I have spent the time to trade for the extras I'd need or the money to buy the ships and get ahold of them.

Though I've also been lucky enough to find people happy enough to trade hard to otherwise gain items for my shuttle fleet, for instance. As well we're pretty casual with the proxies of cards so long as its not like every card someone uses. For instance if I want to run a list large enough for many shuttles I'd need to proxy some cards for upgrades as I've gotten ahold of a lot but I'm far removed from 8 gunners, only have 4 for instance.

I actually do find it fun as well to try and make the best from what I do have when making a list so I try and keep the proxy down to a minimum if I do at all which is rarely.

As well in a tournament setting, I'd expect the opponent to actually have the cards of course.

When I play, I bring a list that I think will be fun to fly, and has the best chance of winning I can manage with that list. I then fly it to the best of my abilities, and expect the other guy to do the same. Doing that does not go against the spirit of Fly Casual and in on way goes against the spirit of the game. Fly Casual is an attitude in which winning is important but not as important and having fun. Flying a bad list is not fun for either side.

I think you should probably re-read my posts as you've a very skewed perception of what I consider to be the spirit of the game. Whoever said anything about deliberately flying with bad lists or deliberately playing badly? You don't have to equip B-wings with advanced sensors for a winning list... it's just an easy and more seductive way of playing them. That anyone would think that's the only way to fly is absolutely missing the point and spirit of the game.

And here again I'm going to bring up the FFG release model as being a way of naturally limiting certain cards that get used. We all assume that everyone buys multiples of ships but there's nothing in the release model to demonstrate that FFG believes this. The game functions perfectly with 1 of each release and on the forum you can see that in many cases, people often have just 1 of certain ships. Indeed, the inclusion of 2 Shield Upgrades and 2 Engine Upgrades with the Falcon indicates to me that FFG don't expect people to buy 4 Falcons - 1 should be enough for most players and if someone buys double they get a healthy amount of them. That they didn't also include 2 of all the other cards tells me that these aren't intended to be used as much .

That some can buy more is rather irrelevant, and anyway also applies across the board with every ship as every player has a different budget, and there are places too where some ships aren't readily available and command higher prices. Everyone has a funding limit and there's never going to be equality in that regard.

But your fine with winning because you can buy 4 shuttles, which I think has very little to do with Skill.

No. I agree with you, it has very little to do with skill which is why I don't like it. I don't cry about it though because ultimately very very few players will ever buy that many shuttles so it's self-limiting. Because really, how many players are you really going to meet who have that many shuttles? That's usually above the funding limit.

Proxies, however, bypass that completely. And potentially everyone can abuse the same cards over and over and be focused only on winning rather than simply playing the game. A game that they likely won't improve on due to the choice of the easier cards.

To provide some context, using a proxy card because you're not sure about the HWK-90 and want to test a build is fine in my book.

And here again I'm going to bring up the FFG release model as being a way of naturally limiting certain cards that get used.

And again I say that's a completely nonsense stance to take. There is nothing in the way they release things that even hints at them trying to put a limit on a given upgrade, based on what ship it's released with.

The Imperial Aces however make it quite clear that a large part of the marketing for that set is in the cards that come with it. How many people are going to pay $30 for 2 ships that they quite likely don't even need, but have different paint job? Same goes for the Transport, they're clearly hoping that the cards with it will help sell it.

We all assume that everyone buys multiples of ships but there's nothing in the release model to demonstrate that FFG believes this.

The rules themselves are set up for people to buy multiple of a given ship. The fact that the core set comes with 2 Tie Fighters is also proof that FFG expects people to buy multiple ships of a given type. Everything about this game clearly points towards 4-8 of the same ship type lists.

Look at Tie Bombers, they're clearly meant to be flown in a group, rather then a single bomber, because both named pilots are pretty much useless unless you have a number of ships with secondary weapons. Howlrunner likewise losses a ton of effectiveness if she's not in the middle of a swam.

The very idea that a list of 1 of each ship type can work is to be honest somewhat laughable. A X, Y, A, B list is not nearly as effective as a 4 X, 4 B or BBXX list. On the Imperial side who's going to play a TF, TI, TB, TA list?

Because really, how many players are you really going to meet who have that many shuttles?

And potentially everyone can abuse the same cards over and over and be focused only on winning rather than simply playing the game.

Wow... so now we're not only exploiting, we're abusing the cards now... And playing to win is worse then simply playing the game... Yet you claim that I am getting a skewed opinion on your posts.

EH WHAT? Really, you shouldn't spend on gaming if you are living by the skin of your teeth? He is a kid but he (and anyone else) can spend their disposable income on whatever the heck they like!

Thank you Billskinir.

@PS10

Just posted a post saying to think before you post. Then your next post was a post that you apologized for? You think minors should not be playing this game, when the suggested age rnage on amazon is 13-15, so does that *really* mean minors should not play this game?

You think minors should not be playing this game, when the suggested age rnage on amazon is 13-15, so does that *really* mean minors should not play this game?

I think his point was that if you don't have the cash to buy the models and other playing pieces for what ever reason, you shouldn't expect someone to let you put a couple of pieces of plastic on the table with some paper saying X-Wing and Y-Wing...

To which I agree, and I think most of us would.

You think minors should not be playing this game, when the suggested age rnage on amazon is 13-15, so does that *really* mean minors should not play this game?

I think his point was that if you don't have the cash to buy the models and other playing pieces for what ever reason, you shouldn't expect someone to let you put a couple of pieces of plastic on the table with some paper saying X-Wing and Y-Wing...

To which I agree, and I think most of us would.

The thing is looking at my friends, none of the them could keep up with the quouta of being able to drop enough money to have close to no limitations at once or even in a reasonable time (3 months say)

Also i don't use a paper (or whatever) for ships, just printed cards.

You think minors should not be playing this game, when the suggested age rnage on amazon is 13-15, so does that *really* mean minors should not play this game?

I think his point was that if you don't have the cash to buy the models and other playing pieces for what ever reason, you shouldn't expect someone to let you put a couple of pieces of plastic on the table with some paper saying X-Wing and Y-Wing...

To which I agree, and I think most of us would.

The thing is looking at my friends, none of the them could keep up with the quouta of being able to drop enough money to have close to no limitations at once or even in a reasonable time (3 months say)

Also i don't use a paper (or whatever) for ships, just printed cards.

You should not take everything what is said here personally, these are just peoples opinions. Which you ask for in your very first post. http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/97819-how-does-everyone-feel-about-proxies/?p=964716

When I give my opinion please do not feel offended. Also personally attacking people on their post that has nothing to do with the main topic will leave you looking bad.

You have people who hate playing against proxies.

You have people who no not mind at all.

You have people in between.

I do not like playing against proxies in any kind of miniature/card game. In fact I wont, good for me I get to play loads of games in a community who agree on this on the most part.

Actually i enjoy a freindly argument, as i feel that's what this is, i'm not offended and i don't think I offend you. When i did get slightly flared it was not about proxies it was about how you said that people without enough money should not be playing the game. I originally did not take this for a argument topic, but i don't look at the forum for a day and there's more then a page of the starting argument which i was fine with it was just not my original intent. Also i don't think i was "personally attacking you" i was arguing with you, therefore i said @ PS10.

1-off casual game or proxying something that hasn't been released yet? Sure you can proxy

Repeatedly proxying the same thing? Would grudgingly let you do it

Tournament play? Never

Just my opinion, though

I love how the quoted prices for the miniatures seem to always be the MSRP!!! lol when if you are patient you can get them for as little as 9 bucks.. I actually got a Y wing for 7 bucks once...I mean one can find the core sets at Target now for 11 bucks!! so the "I cant afford it" mantra doesn't hold as much water. same goes for the "big" ships just keep your ears open, folks are always selling them at local game stores/clubs etc.. pre order also saves some money. seriously if its something you really wanted you would find a way to pay for it... I remember as a kid picking up returnable bottles and turning them in for the deposit so I could buy star-fleet battles miniatures... I mean even now I am still on a budget, as I am sure most if not all of us are on here..but still rather than use proxys I would lend you some of my extras, and if it was me I would only play what I have...as I mentioned earlier I wouldn't really have a problem with casual games.. the only exception I would say is if you couldn't get the ship you wanted due to availability issues.. I remember just about 4 or 5 months ago Y wings were selling on ebay for as much as 200 bucks!!! because nobody could get them!!

And potentially everyone can abuse the same cards over and over and be focused only on winning rather than simply playing the game.

Wow... so now we're not only exploiting, we're abusing the cards now... And playing to win is worse then simply playing the game... Yet you claim that I am getting a skewed opinion on your posts.

Way to completely misread again, but that's bound to happen when you cherry-pick sentences and quote them out of their context. As a potent example, you ask "who's going to play a TF, TI, TB, TA list?" completely missing that I'm talking about multiple releases, i.e., purchases, and not simply multiple ships. One of every release is going to give you 3x TIEs and 2x X-wings. As for Bombers, of course they're useable solo - Rhymus' ability affects only himself, and Jonus can affect both TIE Advanced and the Firespray. So hardly a strong argument there.

That the game becomes much more fun with a crapload of ships on the models doesn't negate the fact that you 1) don't need all the ships to have fun, 2) don't need more than one of any ship.

Also, how you could possibly come to the conclusion that the game is designed for 4-8 of every ship when the point limit is 100 is absurd.

What's more, every release is giving you cards the rules forbid from you using more than once.

There is nothing in the way they release things that even hints at them trying to put a limit on a given upgrade, based on what ship it's released with.

The presence of both duplicate cards and singles with all three large ships doesn't do this? There is clearly an intention to make some cards less common than others. Have a look at your upgrade card deck and count how many duplicates you have versus singles. Homing Missiles are rarer than Concussion missiles and Intelligence Agent is not as valued as Recon Specialist.

Yeah, there are a lot of cheap ways to get ships if you are hard pressed for cash. Personally, I usually pay MRSP because my needs don't always align with finding good deals on minis, but sometimes I get lucky, like that time Miniature Market had B-wings and TIE Bombers on sale for $7 apiece.

I am on the fence on this one.
On one hand, I would be kinda irritated if I went playing with a friend, and he pulled out a bunch of freshly printed cards. I only have a small fleet at the moment, but I am pretty proud of what I have so far. So if my friend came up, and only owned two core sets, but suddenly had an advanced sensors, or PTL on every ship or something, I wouldn't be super thrilled.

On the other hand, I doubt I will be able to afford 4 shuttles, just for the cards inside. I really hope this game won't turn into a pay-to-win game.

I haven't been to any tournaments yet, but I really want to... That being said, some of the excitement for me would be diminished greatly if I showed up, then got creamed because someone else had a bunch of cards that I didn't because they bought 10 of every ship.

I've already said that I would like to buy card packs alone... though I seem to be alone in that desire.

Bottom line, I want to win or lose because of my skill (or lack thereof!) and not my wallet .