I personally don't mind proxies for upgrade type cards. I'm not going to spend another $90 on 3 more shuttles just so I can have enough advanced sensors to run a 4 B-Wing list.

I don't like the idea of proxies for ships or bases. I have a huge fleet, but still dont plan on buying 4 shuttles, I have 2 and think it rather silly to buy 2 more for just 2 cards. I don't print cards, I tend to use void state so my cards are rarely out of the box. I live in a small town, and have not found many players, so I am usually lending them some of my ships for some or all of their squad. So I don't print cards, but I have been known to run 3 bwings with adv sensors, but I would not do that in a tournament

Ok, hard to do this on my phone, edit last post as appropriate.

If it makes the game more fun for you, then do it.

If you're talking tourney play then play with what you have (or borrow) and if you're going to commit to be part of a weekly league then I would at least like to see you support the game store with a purchase of a product you obviously need and are going to be able to use.

I've been thinking of buying extra bases and micro machines. Since you have extra cards and shipcardboard in every pack you buy. Not for tournament. But for a huge battle

I am fine with playing against proxies. Honestly if I showed up at a game store and the guy said he wanted to decide whether or not he wanted to buy a second YT-1300 so he was flying his Firespray as a proxy for the second freighter, there is no way I would refuse to play with him.

I think alternate models shapeways or anything else sounds cool. And I don't want someone to have to buy three Firesprays so they can get the stealth devices of Heavy Laser cannons they need.

I have put one card underneath three ships indicating that they all had the upgrade.

I really don't see much problem with proxies as long as you don't abuse it.

That being said, clearly for my own use. I want to have the cards. I want the stuff. I guess it is my materialistic streak. I love this game and I am just shallow enough to take pleasure in all the new upgrades I get every time I buy a ship. If FFG sold just card packs I would probably buy them.

As for tournaments, I would feel like a hypocrite saying that you can't use proxies in tournaments, but since I am never the one running the tournament I don't really need to worry about it. The rules are clear. (If I were honest with myself, if I were to run a tournament I would probably not allow for proxies) But if I were in a tournament and the organizer chose to allow proxies then I probably wouldn't make a stink.

Actually when I competed in the Kessel Run there were lots of proxies flying around. But those players tended to have less than a week of experience in the game. They weren't much of a threat, and I wanted to encourage then to join the hobby.

Personally i did my first 9 Proxies today and i'm very happy with them. But what do you guys feel about them? Would some of you go as far as to if you were at a game store tell someone you won't play if they use them? I'm really just curious on what everyone thinks of them and who uses them.

Friendly games? Sure. Tournaments? Sorry, you'll have to pony up because that's a FFG requirement. If your group is specifying tourney rules because you're all prepping for it, sure. If your group is specifying tourney rules otherwise...

I have a problem with people that insist you have the real thing, mini and/or card. You read that right. A lot of you guys seem to have a real problem with sportsmanship. Just because you're on a tight budget and made it work doesn't mean someone else can.

The game is not a status symbol.

Maybe I don't understand "Fly casual" because I'd rather just meet new people and have fun and couldn't care less what they have on the table. I'm happy to let you borrow my minis and hope you would do the same. I don't see why a chunk of plastic should get in the way of having fun. I would, and I have, refused to play games with "no proxies allowed" people (and I do have the cards and minis). Miniatures are not required to play this game. Just the right size base. It's entirely irrelevant what mini is on the stand. They're only there for looks. I know people that play all their minis games with pretzels and nuts (and they eat the pieces when they're destroyed). Some use cardboard cut-outs. I know at least one formal set of published rules that recommends using hard candies for targets (you get rewarded for blowing up your enemies).

I get wanting to see a battlefield populated with the proper figs. Not having them is not a reason to not play.

Proxies are the devil. Borrow from someone or open that wallet.

I think it's a bad habit if you're doing it because you simply don't want to buy another of the model that gives the card. Next, you'll be wanting to use custom cards that give you extra advantage.

Besides, the game was surely designed to fully explore the customisation options with the ships, to have fun developing lists with a diverse range of upgrades, but it sounds like many people proxy just because they want more of the most powerful cards and can have multiple ships all equipped the same.

People have fun in different ways to be sure, but 4 B-wings with advanced sensors doesn't sound like you want to have fun, it sounds like you want to win. To an extent, I'd argue that FFG included some of the more powerful cards (modifications especially) in the big ships in order to limit their over-use in games.

Personally i did my first 9 Proxies today and i'm very happy with them. But what do you guys feel about them? Would some of you go as far as to if you were at a game store tell someone you won't play if they use them? I'm really just curious on what everyone thinks of them and who uses them.

Offhand I'd have to say that I think I'd have a problem with proxy ships but no problem with cards.

Obviously, you have to follow the rules at a tournament. But I have no problems playing against proxies. Although, admittedly, I haven't played against any proxies in the three games I've played.

Personally, I like the challenge of trying to create a winning 100-point squad with what I have. And I have a pretty good selection - 13 ships, 7 Rebel and 6 Imperial (see my sig). I can make dozens of solid Rebel squads and at least a few for the Empire as well.

I like figuring out my next purchase and thinking about how the ship and upgrades will improve my squad-building.

So, for me at least, the limitations of my ships actually make the game more interesting. And though I don't mind them, I don't think I'll ever end up using them.

Next, you'll be wanting to use custom cards that give you extra advantage.

Yes because there's such a thin line between playing by the rules and cheating...

To an extent, I'd argue that FFG included some of the more powerful cards (modifications especially) in the big ships in order to limit their over-use in games.

And you'd be wrong.

The point of those cards is to sell more of the big ships, not to put limits on how many you see in the game. Limiting it by cost is the worse possible way to do things, because they have no control over how many ships someone will buy, so there's no way to limit how many of a given card will be in play.

Next, you'll be wanting to use custom cards that give you extra advantage.

Yes because there's such a thin line between playing by the rules and cheating...

To an extent, I'd argue that FFG included some of the more powerful cards (modifications especially) in the big ships in order to limit their over-use in games.

And you'd be wrong.

The point of those cards is to sell more of the big ships, not to put limits on how many you see in the game. Limiting it by cost is the worse possible way to do things, because they have no control over how many ships someone will buy, so there's no way to limit how many of a given card will be in play.

Though I don't think Pay-to-win is such a good way to balance a game. Therefore if people want to proxy cards no issue with me.

Has anyone considered that this is copyrighted material? I don't have the game in front of me right now, but if these cards and components are copyrighted material then it is illegal to make unauthorized duplication's. Just something to think about before hitting the print button.

I've personally placed twelve proxy-card players under citizen's arrest within the last 2 weeks. Criminals beware!

To an extent, I'd argue that FFG included some of the more powerful cards (modifications especially) in the big ships in order to limit their over-use in games.

And you'd be wrong.

The point of those cards is to sell more of the big ships, not to put limits on how many you see in the game. Limiting it by cost is the worse possible way to do things, because they have no control over how many ships someone will buy, so there's no way to limit how many of a given card will be in play.

So you think the only reason why shield upgrade (or any card) is included in the Falcon expansion is to sell more Falcon models? That's nonsense and I suspect you know it. Are some highly desirable cards only available in 1 release and is that irritating? Yes, but conspiracy theories aren't needed when there are plenty of reasons for such a release model.

And whilst "I don't have multiples of this awesome card but I'm going to pretend I do so I can win" isn't cheating, I'm not so sure it's in keeping with the spirit of the game.

And whilst "I don't have multiples of this awesome card but I'm going to pretend I do so I can win" isn't cheating, I'm not so sure it's in keeping with the spirit of the game.

I see it as the opposite. Is one player having an advantage because he has more money so can buy 4 shuttles in the spirit of the game. At least if both sides can proxy they have the same pool of resources to work with, which is fairer.

Imagine if you were playing chess and were only allowed the Queen if you spent $100 on it.

So you think the only reason why shield upgrade (or any card) is included in the Falcon expansion is to sell more Falcon models? That's nonsense and I suspect you know it. Are some highly desirable cards only available in 1 release and is that irritating? Yes, but conspiracy theories aren't needed when there are plenty of reasons for such a release model.

Seriously, he's not wrong.. it's pretty obvious to anyone who has ever worked in business or marketing that the limited production of upgrade cards with specific models is intended to drive model sales, and judging by this thread it is working well enough.

Claiming it is a game balance mechanic is absurd.

So you think the only reason why shield upgrade (or any card) is included in the Falcon expansion is to sell more Falcon models?

Yes it's quite clear that the primary reason they do that, is to sell more copies of the big ships. Most people wouldn't bother with more then 1 of each, perhaps 2. But because Advanced Sensors are so good, a lot of people buy 4 Shuttles.

Trying to maintain balance by cost is a foolish idea at best in this game. In random distribution games like Magic, you can make rare cards more powerful, because they're just that, rare. They're a limited number of them any one group is likely to see.

But in a game like X-Wing trying to balance by rarity simply does not work, because there is no such thing. There's nothing stopping me from buying 4 Shuttles if I wanted to. So there's nothing limiting my access to the cards that come with it.

I'm not so sure it's in keeping with the spirit of the game.

It's very much in keeping with the spirit of Fly Casual. Given what you have posted so far, it seems like you're the type who feels like you should be able to buy an advantage over others. That is very much counter to the spirit of this game.

I do get were the pro-proxy are coming from. But I am a miniature gamer, it are the models and the cards that I like, that is why I was put off by attack wing. Ugly models for me is not a miniature game I want to play. I want to play with awesome miniatures, and I feel like I am cheating my opponent out of a game if I use proxies. On a side note, Vassal does not get my heartbeat up, it is not the same to me as the real thing.

So I am saving a bit for Empire models as I have none. It is ok to start with less, and if you really want that card...just save some money for a couple of weeks/months and get it, because do you really need that B-wing right now?

(and now to the douchbag part) If you do not even have the money to save up for a luxury product you should not be playing this game...instead you should be investing on living. You can always ask a friend to borrow his mini's for playing a game.

This is all my point of view though.

Also I like game so I do not mind supporting them.

But I am a miniature gamer

Most of us are, or we wouldn't be here. If this game was just the bases with pictures on them, not a nice miniature I doubt I'd be here, I doubt the game would be anywhere nearly as popular as it is.

But the lack of few upgrade cards do not really detract from the visual appeal or impact of the game.

Also I like game so I do not mind supporting them.

I own 1 of each large ship, and 4 of most fighters, other then 8 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Advanced and 1 HWK. I've pre-ordered the Imp Aces, and will be buying the Transport and CR-90 when they come out. I have no issue spending money on this game... well perhaps my issue is how willing I am to spend money...

What I'm not willing to do however is give up on an idea for a list, just because I'm not willing to spend $20-30 per card for a given upgrade. If I had an use for those ships, I'd buy them, but I'm not going to buy 3 more shuttles just for the sake of the upgrade cards that comes with it.

If I played in a tourney or other event, I'd restrict my list to those which I have everything for, and that would still leave me a ton of options. But when it's just friends playing I just can't justify spending $60-90 for the sake of a few cards.

It's very much in keeping with the spirit of Fly Casual. Given what you have posted so far, it seems like you're the type who feels like you should be able to buy an advantage over others. That is very much counter to the spirit of this game.

Actually I dislike that notion (being able to buy an advantage) much the same as you and others here. I come from a position that no-one should really be buying multiples of some ships at all, though I appreciate that there is that option to spend oodles of money duplicating everything, it's strange to me (and quite wasteful). Having just the one YT-1300 or Firespray is what makes those ships special, and owning them gives you additional wonderful rewards (shiny cards!) that should be prized as special. Using proxies robs you of that.

I'm not convinced that FFG set out with the idea that people would buy multiples of the large ships to get lots of the same cards and specifically matched the advanced sensors with the lambda to make it more appealing. The implication is that there are bad cards included in other releases that fail to make those appealing, which wouldn't be good business sense! I doubt they really had any idea that this particular card's synergy with B-wings would make them so sought after. Further, remember that at this stage the card has essentially just been released (about 4 months?); there hasn't been another wave where the card could be re-issued - which wouldn't be out of the ordinary as we've had several cards now that are available in more than one release.

To clarify, it's less about using a placeholder for something that should have been bought, but more about 1) depriving yourself of the joy of having the card, 2) exploiting powerful cards beyond the natural resources of most players (yes, one can buy 4 shuttles and to get 4 advanced sensors but most people won't due to the cost). And if that person has used their money then they're poorer for it since I don't think it's in the spirit of the game to equip every ship with PTL and stealth upgrade - regardless of whether these are bought cards or proxies.

Sorry, but where do any of you get off telling people who want to spend their own $ to buy product for this game that "you" don't feel that is ok and/or not in the "spirit of the game"?

How much discretionary income someone chooses to spend buying product from FFG to support this game is nobody's business except the person spending the $. And they certainly don't deserve to be labeled a poor sport and not playing in the "spirit of the game" (whatever that is, since every person can define it differently).

Jim

Has anyone considered that this is copyrighted material? I don't have the game in front of me right now, but if these cards and components are copyrighted material then it is illegal to make unauthorized duplication's. Just something to think about before hitting the print button.

Well we're not selling them so i don't see the problem there. Plus do you know how many Millions of songs a day are downloaded for free? Alot!

So I am saving a bit for Empire models as I have none. It is ok to start with less, and if you really want that card...just save some money for a couple of weeks/months and get it, because do you really need that B-wing right now?

(and now to the douchbag part) If you do not even have the money to save up for a luxury product you should not be playing this game...instead you should be investing on living. You can always ask a friend to borrow his mini's for playing a game.

I'm sorry but i am a minor, I can't get a Job yet i live with my parents (as all minors do) so the price of living for ME is close to nothing. But i have EXTREMELY low income compared to most of you and therefore can't spend $150 at any given moment on a board game. So yes i can't afford to buy all the ships without waiting a year or so! So does that mean i shouldn't be playing this game?

Think about the text more before making a post.

Has anyone considered that this is copyrighted material? I don't have the game in front of me right now, but if these cards and components are copyrighted material then it is illegal to make unauthorized duplication's. Just something to think about before hitting the print button.

Well we're not selling them so i don't see the problem there. Plus do you know how many Millions of songs a day are downloaded for free? Alot!

simply put, unless those songs are paid for, it is still a crime. Using one crime to justify another is a fairly shabby defense. I can understand where you are coming from, I was a young poor gamer at one time, it will get better. I don't have a real problem with proxies as a test for a build or as a temporary means until a legitimate copy can be acquired, but that should be the end goal, a legitimate copy. There is no reason to proxy a card or anything permanently with no intention of reimbursing the intellectual property owner for its use, to believe that is true is a false sense of entitlement period.