I actually "fork over the cash" because I WANT the things. For gaming, I'd tend to take a page from the Hothie's "fly casual" attitude and say go ahead and use proxies for casual play. It's all about playing a game, after all. I think people get way too serious about it.
Me, I'll continue to collect the ships!
I feel they are "OK" only if you are are unable to obtain the REAL ones due to availability issues.. other than that seems like its being "CHEAP" but for house/local use i wouldn't have any problems with it, seems like we ought to be supporting FFG and our local game stores.. If and when we can.. just my 2 cents... oh and i wouldn't except ship proxys... thats just lame....
If the bases were correct would you mind people using a Shapeways YT-2000 or YT-2400 to represent a YT-1300... or some Tie-Droids to represent some Tie Fighters... To me that would be fun and cool.
Or even a Hound's Tooth and a IG-2000, to represent a couple of Firesprays.
Using alternate models is definitely different than proxies, imo, and love to see that kind of thing as long as the rules make sense for the model being used.
To the OP
For proxies (not cards) , I'd suggest only doing that in games with friends who you've let know ahead of time. I play the game for the look as much as the game itself (though I think the rules are great), so I'd never spring proxies in a pick-up type game, even if it was casual.
I feel they are "OK" only if you are are unable to obtain the REAL ones due to availability issues.. other than that seems like its being "CHEAP" but for house/local use i wouldn't have any problems with it, seems like we ought to be supporting FFG and our local game stores.. If and when we can.. just my 2 cents... oh and i wouldn't except ship proxys... thats just lame....
If the bases were correct would you mind people using a Shapeways YT-2000 or YT-2400 to represent a YT-1300... or some Tie-Droids to represent some Tie Fighters... To me that would be fun and cool.
Or even a Hound's Tooth and a IG-2000, to represent a couple of Firesprays.
Using alternate models is definitely different than proxies, imo, and love to see that kind of thing as long as the rules make sense for the model being used.
By the dictionary definition they count as proxies. I used to love Epic Armegeddon's Proxy rules for tournaments.
1) Must reasonably represent the model being depicted (SO no using the Tantive as a Tie Fighter)
2) Must not be a model you could legally take in your list (So no using an Advanced as an Interceptor as you could use an Advanced if you chose Imperials)
I had an entire Imperial Guard army, which were using traitor models, so Nurgle Beast riders instead of Rough Riders, Hell Talons instead of Thunderbolt fighters, Chaos Sorcerers instead of commisars. Giant Rat beasts with guns strapped to them instead of Ogryns.
yeah what Alex said. i dont have ANY problems with the shapways stuff... matter of fact i am looking hard at getting some Gosric E-wings... to me those are NOT proxys... they are ships made by somebody else.. however printing a stealth card because you are too cheap to buy proper one, and using a "Slinky" as your ship proxy is lame.. i mean seriously i could cut paste and print the entire game as a proxy!!
however i do know that some of us don't have jobs and cant afford to own 3 slaves and falcons etc.... and in that case for local/house play its fine...
As long as the plastic ship base and the printed firing arc on the ship token are authentic it really doesn't seem like it would matter. I was playing with micro machine A-wings and interceptors with handmade dials long before wave 2 was actually released, it was no different than playing with the official ships
If someone comes up with all handmade components like they didn't even buy a core set with the move templates then sure, maybe I don't want to play with them, but as long as the printed cards match the real card text and it's easy to tell what ship proxies are then i don't see a problem. Basically, don't use really cheap and lazy proxies and it's fine. It's just a game after all, and I don't expect everyone to have a massive collection of every possible expansion to fit in a 100 point game, I am well aware how expensive that can get from my own experience
TBH I'm tempted to write a small App, and then just use my Tablet as my Pilot card and Upgrade cards, It saves so much time between matches....
the voidstate program allows you to print to your computer, just copy it to a tablet and open it there.. easy enough.. no fuss no muss..
however i do know that some of us don't have jobs and cant afford to own 3 slaves and falcons etc.... and in that case for local/house play its fine...
Due to vision/medical reasons I have been out of work since last March. I still have a huge fleet of ships I could field.. min 4 of all ships (6+ of bombers, squints and TIEs, X wings as well) , except large ones.. 3 Falcons and shuttles, and 2 firesprays.. but I buy with the thought of repaints so.. I'm the odd duck out here.. lol
I believe strongly in the fun and value of building within your means. If you don't own it, you don't need to play it. Something else in your collection can fill that space. I've always felt that proxies (or even borrowing) reduces the excitement once you actually own the real thing. If I'm buying an A-Wing just for PtL (which I'm not, I love A-Wings), is it going to feel like money well spent if it's only replacing a Proxy, rather than unlocking a whole new upgrade for my ship?
If I sat down to play and my opponent pulled out proxy ships/bases I wouldn't worry about it as long as they had made it very clear what was what. That probably wouldn't happen though because someone would probably lend them the correct ships to use if possible.
For a tournament, well the rules are clear: no proxies of anything allowed. And that's the way it should be.
Outside of tournament play proxy cards are fine by me. One time one guy showed up with all pilot cards and upgrades printed off onto an 8.5x11 sheet of paper and that was actually really easy to see what all he had.
I buy enough for casual play that anyone can use what they need. Some cards are a rarity, but that's the point. Rare. Not every ship should have a cloaking device. The Firespray was a rare ship. Now, if I was playing a friend and he printed 20 cards because he couldn't afford them, he's a friend. I'll survive. Might even buy him some for a birthday gift or holidays.
However, I walk into a store, and that store is either A) allowing you to use their store as a place to play to drive interest and revenue, or B) holding a tournament that FFG is funding to drive interest and revenue, then no. Its like stealing. Unless The company funding the event or allowing the game has no problem with it, I feel it shouldn't be allowed. By printing your own, your causing the price to rise for those who do buy, because your not buying into the game. FFG has the rights to the game, not any company that comes along. Its not checkers, or chess, that is universally accepted as allowing bolts and washers as proxies.
I feel they are "OK" only if you are are unable to obtain the REAL ones due to availability issues.. other than that seems like its being "CHEAP" but for house/local use i wouldn't have any problems with it, seems like we ought to be supporting FFG and our local game stores.. If and when we can.. just my 2 cents... oh and i wouldn't except ship proxys... thats just lame....
If the bases were correct would you mind people using a Shapeways YT-2000 or YT-2400 to represent a YT-1300... or some Tie-Droids to represent some Tie Fighters... To me that would be fun and cool.
Or even a Hound's Tooth and a IG-2000, to represent a couple of Firesprays.
Using alternate models is definitely different than proxies, imo, and love to see that kind of thing as long as the rules make sense for the model being used.
By the dictionary definition they count as proxies. I used to love Epic Armegeddon's Proxy rules for tournaments.
1) Must reasonably represent the model being depicted (SO no using the Tantive as a Tie Fighter)
2) Must not be a model you could legally take in your list (So no using an Advanced as an Interceptor as you could use an Advanced if you chose Imperials)
I had an entire Imperial Guard army, which were using traitor models, so Nurgle Beast riders instead of Rough Riders, Hell Talons instead of Thunderbolt fighters, Chaos Sorcerers instead of commisars. Giant Rat beasts with guns strapped to them instead of Ogryns.
I was referring to the context here, obviously, not the dictionary definition.
Couldn't care less about proxy cards in any setting other than an official tournament. I wouldn't want anyone to spend money on a ship just to get a card, because the idea of anyone spending 15 or 30 bucks for a piece of paper that cost about ten cents to make makes me sick to my stomach. In a tournament setting... Eh, thems the rules.
As for ships... Never considered it. For me they just have to look good and not break the rules (base size, etc). As someone else mentioned, I love miniature games for the looks, so...
With the situation where I believe you have 2 non-unique droids and some missiles coming in the transport, and the fact that there are no lower PS pilots in the Aces box (yeah to be able to fly 5 Avengers or 4 Royal Guard you need to own 9 Interceptors) I think I will gravitate to just using proxies for some cards in friendly games (and borrowing if I need to for tournaments).
It's not like I don't own a fair few models.
You see, when players use proxies the opponent feels somewhat cheated that they have spent and time to put together these models and these lists, and why should YOU have all the enjoyment without having to put the money and effort into it.
It is about judging "how much proxy will that player allow". Some, as we have seen, allow a fair amount, others don't want to see any.
To the OP: it is always better to introduce a few proxy at a times (like 1 or 2 cards) and see your opponent's reactions. Then, if you continue to play with that person, you MAY be able to bring in more proxies as they become more tolerant of it.
Miniatures games are a very personal hobby and players feel cheated when their opponents are taking a shortcut.
Also, some players get really defensive about their FLGS and scorn at anyone who buys from discounted stores. Currently, I have a very limited hobby budget so I mostly play with what I have and save money aside every month to buy more.
There is something to be said about waiting 3 months after its release to pay for that Lambda shuttle at full price at the local store.
Edited by guillaumetexaswell.. if you look at what is out there these days, one could easily get all bases, tokens and movement templates and range sticks from litco.. then shapeways has all the ships you could want, just mount them up and off you go.. would be easy to get around some things. but I don't think anyone has the damage deck scanned to be printed. There are a couple places that have all the cards where one could print them..
I never thought about this until this thread, but it's an interesting thought.. not that I would go through all that.. it might be cost effective though..
well.. if you look at what is out there these days, one could easily get all bases, tokens and movement templates and range sticks from litco.. then shapeways has all the ships you could want, just mount them up and off you go.. would be easy to get around some things. but I don't think anyone has the damage deck scanned to be printed. There are a couple places that have all the cards where one could print them..
I never thought about this until this thread, but it's an interesting thought.. not that I would go through all that.. it might be cost effective though..
But if a significant group of people do that, then it hurts the industry because what incentive would FFG have to produce new content? I'm ok with card proxies. Custom ships? Not really interested. I'll wait for real models from FFG. Ripping off FFG with a replication of all their published stuff? Find another table, you aren't playing at mine. (smilie to take out the sting)
I don't feel like this game should be like Magic: The Gathering at all. I don't care about card proxies and I wish that FFG would make a way for you to get all the cards you need via some sort of pack of cards. It's sad that certain upgrade cards are only available in some ships that people might not want to own many of.
That being said, it is a miniatures game and I'm not really interested in playing with people who do not own the models. If you want to run 4 B-Wings then buy 4 B-Wings or make up another interesting build. If money is tight and you want to test a build a couple of times before investing, then I think that should be ok.
I don't have a problem with proxies, as long as they look decent. To me, the main reason for playing a miniatures game instead of a board game or a hex-and-counter wargame is for the visual appeal of the models.
So, I really don't care if someone's ship cards or upgrade cards are scans/printouts instead of official FFG cards. I don't even care if the models are the official FFG models, but I DO want to see the following:
In a tournament, FFG or the tournament organizers can make whatever rules they like. Asking for official cards and models seems reasonable, if only to encourage people to support the folks who make the game. But if I'm playing at home, none of this applies.
well.. if you look at what is out there these days, one could easily get all bases, tokens and movement templates and range sticks from litco.. then shapeways has all the ships you could want, just mount them up and off you go.. would be easy to get around some things. but I don't think anyone has the damage deck scanned to be printed. There are a couple places that have all the cards where one could print them..
I never thought about this until this thread, but it's an interesting thought.. not that I would go through all that.. it might be cost effective though..
But if a significant group of people do that, then it hurts the industry because what incentive would FFG have to produce new content? I'm ok with card proxies. Custom ships? Not really interested. I'll wait for real models from FFG. Ripping off FFG with a replication of all their published stuff? Find another table, you aren't playing at mine. (smilie to take out the sting)
Was just an observation on my part.. no sting felt from your words.. i actually agree with you..
I had just thought about it and was amused at the concept..
I don't feel like this game should be like Magic: The Gathering at all. I don't care about card proxies and I wish that FFG would make a way for you to get all the cards you need via some sort of pack of cards. It's sad that certain upgrade cards are only available in some ships that people might not want to own many of.
That being said, it is a miniatures game and I'm not really interested in playing with people who do not own the models. If you want to run 4 B-Wings then buy 4 B-Wings or make up another interesting build. If money is tight and you want to test a build a couple of times before investing, then I think that should be ok.
For a little perspective, you can make a very competitive X-Wing list for well under $100, and that's including the starter kit. In Magic, a competitive deck could cost you in the hundreds - and that's just Standard. People really only use proxies to test out new ideas, because there's nothing worse than brainstorming a deck, investing all that money into it, and then having it fall on its face. Now, if someone decided to proxy up a Black Lotus for their Commander deck, I would tell them to GTFO. I suppose Magic is unique, in that people are generally willing to spend all that cash on cards they know cost pennies to manufacture.
Here's the real lesson people need to take away from all this: be happy with what you've got. Not a single one of the ships, pilots, or upgrade cards is mandatory to be competitive, let alone enjoy the game. If you can't justify spending $30 for another Adv. Sensors, use a list that doesn't need it.
Edited by WonderWAAAGHThis might sound harsh, and it probably is but. 95% of the time if you are using proxies you are using them to make your fleet better. I have yet to see someone proxy a card to make his fleet worse.
In casual play its all fun for me, so who cares if you do not have that PTL for Wedge...>>Insert random rumbling about how you would just like to use the card without paying for it<<. Oh really you 'just' want to use it and try it out? Nope you just wanted to see how powerful you could make wedge.
It just does not feel like a casual game to me now you start printing out cards to improve your odds at winning. I still play with a luke skywalker crew instead of a gunner, and having great battles with him.
For tournament play, there are rules. No proxies, simple...
Now if someone asked me in advance, hey I am doing practice matches for next weeks tournament but I am torn on what upgrade to take, is it ok if I borrow/proxy it? Then this would be fine, I know what to expect.
Same goes for a shapeway mini or make a simple rule change doing a pirate faction (not a proxy). If I know in advance, it is no problem.
But if someone asks for a game and starts setting up proxies or cards, I ask to remove the proxies or I'll find someone else to play.
Wow this topic has exploded!
When i was talking about Proxies i didn't have ships in mind. But being that they have come up my feeling on using as some of you have said a "Slinky" or something like that for your falcon is just plain AWFUL. I think if i don't want to buy a ship yet but want the cards now what's the harm in printing them and using them for anything other then tournaments. But if you want to use a ship, USE THE SHIP! But if you do want to use some Shapeways Miniatures such as the E-Wing, then as long as you have a few things id be fine with it.
1. Pilot cards. They would need custom pilot cards with agreeable stats.
2. Regulation size base on it.
I see in the future lot's of people proxing the upcoming X-Wing Pilot cards (from the transport) cuz everyone has X-Wings, but not as many will get the transport. I know as soon as the cards are released, i'll be printing them.
first a game ANY game is better than NO game because you don't have enough ships etc.(if you only had a core set i would gratefully lend you some of my stuff or i would play down to the core set) Second i don't think proxy ships are a problem as they cost as much as the FFG ships. Third you should play what you got and save up and buy what you need or want. As was mentioned i am sure folks would lend you what they have if they have extras so you could play. but just because you want to make an 11 ship stealth 175 point squad and don't want to buy 4 slaves, well really i wouldn't have a problem with that unless it was a tournament. seriously for casual play i wouldn't care if you used potatoes stuck on toothpicks and cards made out of envelopes and crayons as i am looking for folks that are local to play against, and eventually i would think the proxy user would want to get the real thing. As for litco and other range rulers and tokens I think they are UPGRADES over the cardboard FFG ones and i don't know why FFG hasn't made them.. now being the narcissist that i am i have thought that a custom pilot card for my self would be kind of cool.. I just need some kind of "Special" ability..lol
I actually collect both factions so that if someone wants to play, they don't have to proxy. I have enough ships on either side to make a decent 100pt squad, and so far it's come in handy many times when kids want to play a game with me, just to get to play a game with such awesome minis (plus, y'know, it's Star Wars).