I agree with the assessments, the Best Candidates for DD are Tycho, Vader and Sontir.
However, I wanted to try it out for fun and see what it does, it does gives it an interesting option, or I would say that it is a "poor man's Lorrir" (for a few specific cases).
Sounds fun... Be sure to report back. Might give it a go myself.
PTL is what makes most interceptor builds even possible. Sadly, now I'm pretty sure we'll never see it errat'd. Happily, I can continue to fly interceptors and still only win 65% of the time.
At least Soontir still gets his focus action with DD... I agree with the above points on PtL, and myself admit that I'm part of the problem with it. I have VERY few squads that have an elite pilot talent slot filled by something other than PtL. In fact, the only one I can think of I fly on a regular basis is my Jan/Ibitsam/Garven build, which flies Elusiveness on Ibitsam only because of points. If I had 1 point more it'd be Push the Limit instead.
The reason for this problem is easily discovered: FFG undervalued actions and the action economy for this game when they created waves 1-3. Push the Limit is the second biggest example of this. The largest and most easily recognized example of this is the overcosted TIE Advanced. Maarek would have been great if he were 2-3 points cheaper, the same can be said of the generic advanceds. Vader? He's right on par for his point cost, and why is that? He gets to take two actions with no penalty. He is the only advanced pilot likely to be fielded at all, and the only one I've personally ever encountered at a tournament, because he is flying an overcosted ship with an undercosted ability.
This same issue is why pilots that provide actions or mitigate the loss of actions tend to perform better than their counterparts (Soontir, Turr, Garven, Dutch, Lando, and Night Beast being some of the more obvious of them.) The isue is FURTHER exacerbated by the inclusion of turret weapons, especially the Falcon. Because of the virtual guarantee that you'll encounter some sort of turret in a tournament, having your action is vastly more important than maneuvering out of your opponent's arc for general squad building. Because of this, upgrades like Daredevil, Expert Handling, and Engine Upgrade all take a backseat to stuff like Push the Limit, Advanced Sensors, and Fire Control System.
Imperial Aces is already working partially to correct this issue, giving us a pilot who negates the focus and evade actions, but it is also making it worse, partially by including a pilot who always always always must evade, but primarily by making PtL easier to get. If, in wave 4, we get some pilots or upgrades that makes the turret weapons less viable, and perhaps emphasize maneuvering rather than action stacking, then we may see PtL not phasing out, but at least declining to allow for the lesser-used upgrades their time to shine.
Aces is already working partially to correct this issue, giving us a pilot who negates the focus and evade actions, but it is also making it worse, partially by including a pilot who always always always must evade, but primarily by making PtL easier to get.
Thankfully Kir Kanos cannot take EPT
I think KineticOperator and Eruletho are onto it…i've personally run Daredevil on multiple occasions and find it to be well costed. I'm never upset i spent the points on it, but PtL is just too good. It particularly shines because so few people use it, it surprises opponents. 5 Speed, then make a 90 degree turn….ridiculous. Soontir is about the best with it that i can think of, because he gets that free focus…and he does well, but he dies alot faster without that dual action.
I think that if turrets become less common the maneuvering abilities will start to shine, but for now they take the back seat
Kir with an ept would have been a world of hurt.
3/6 rebel ships have access to turrets (or have them built in) right now. Most that can, do take it; a few naked ywings are the exception. There are also hardcore ion turret fans. Turrets aren't going anywhere. All turrets except ORS also throw 3 dice, it's just a no-brainer if you're primary dice are 1-2.
Exactly.
I think the Push the Limit issue is slightly overstated a tad. Yes, Push the Limit is the better option for A-wings and Interceptors. But that is mainly because those ships can shed the stress sooo easily compared to other ships, along with having a nice, diverse selection of actions. Upgrades have different values on different ships.
And that brings up Daredevil. The 2 ships currently that would work with just Daredevil is better with Push the Limit. On other ships, you are looking at 7 pts, realistically. That is a Heavy Laser Cannon, which is a tough comparison. And while an Engine Upgrade can be fine on some ships, you may prefer other modifications, rather than the one your Elite Talent forces you to take.
in a way EPT by there very nature skew the power of ships taking them. If more generic ships/lesser pilots at the low/med end of the points scale had EPT perhaps DD might see more play.
DD is such a niche card, only certain ships can use it effectively. DD which is useful for sharp turning (moderately useful) but is only optimal a small number of ships. DD is very situational.
When u take ANY upgrade u need to ask yourself HOW many times will i get to use it throughout the course of a game. DD does give u another movement option not available to ships wout it but is a poor cousin (for the SAME cost as PTL).
PTL gives you TWO actions whenever you want them! yes u need to be unstressed to use it but thats easy enough to setup by choosing an agile ship like the intercepter which sheds stress easily or one that has a good selection of green manouvres. eg. take 2 actions his turn - get a stress token - next turn execute a green manouvre - lose stress - take another 2 actions.
actually when i really think about it PTL probably should have given you TWO stress tokens to make it more balanced. As it stands now PTL is very powerful and thats why it gets lots of play.
Edited by The_Brown_BomberOff topic, and quickly ducking... The proper acronym for Daredevil would be D, wouldn't it, because "daredevil" is one word, not two, right? Push The Limit = PTL, Swarm Tactics = ST, What Would The Flying Spaghetti Monster Do? = WWTFSMD
My problem with daredevil isn't that push the limit is too good. It's just that most vehicles that would use daredevil already have boost. While daredevil pushes the turn farther than a boost that extra move isn't worth 3 points. They should down the point cost, especially when you take damage if you don't have the boost ability and you take stress. With the card text the way it is I'm surprised the card doesn't cost 1 point.
Off topic, and quickly ducking... The proper acronym for Daredevil would be D, wouldn't it, because "daredevil" is one word, not two, right? Push The Limit = PTL, Swarm Tactics = ST, What Would The Flying Spaghetti Monster Do? = WWTFSMD
DD=Daredevil superhero from the Marvel Universe so its an abbreviation already in circulation.
tbh its the coolest thing about the upgrade
DD=Daredevil superhero from the Marvel Universe so its an abbreviation already in circulation.Off topic, and quickly ducking... The proper acronym for Daredevil would be D, wouldn't it, because "daredevil" is one word, not two, right? Push The Limit = PTL, Swarm Tactics = ST, What Would The Flying Spaghetti Monster Do? = WWTFSMD
tbh its the coolest thing about the upgrade
LMAO, well played, sir!
I've seen an interceptor flight with unversal Daredevil, got thoroughly taken to task by it. The stress token isn't a big deal as squints have so many bloody green manouvres it's untrue.
The things I noted:
on a B-wing, Daredevil + Advanced Sensors is also pretty darned awesome, you basically get access to some new maneuvers - granted you kill your action doing it you can clear the stress from it with a green - (It's the one reason that I wish a-wings could take advanced sensors....) (Stacked with a squad leader and an engine upgrade - those b-wings become crazy slippery buggers...)
I will offer the dissenting opinion.
I actually think Dare Devil is quite good, and easily worth the 3 points. The fact that you do it as an action is huge, allowing you to adapt to your opponent's moves.
Unfortunately, it appears weak because it is in the same slot as the terribly undercosted Push the Limit. PTL is easily worth 5 points, it dramatically improves every single ship it is put on. Even at 5 points you would still be hard pressed to find a better value, at 3 points it is an auto-include on nearly every ship that can carry it. What other EPTs do you regularly see? There are a bunch of them, and all of them are pretty good in some way, but I would venture to guess that PTL hits the table twice as often as all the other EPTs combined. Interceptors? Push. Howl? Push. Firespray? Push. Gee, Mauler isn't really all that great, but if you had 3 more points to spend what upgrade could you put on him that would outperform PTL, especially in the EPT slot? Just think of how difficult Chewie would be to kill in the Millenium Falcon if he had.... wait for it... Push. Even Han Solo gains pretty dramatically if he has PTL to get an evade on his Falcon. The only ship I don't think PTL works on is Vader, and that is because he can already do it.
Push the Limit is one of my least favorite cards in the game right now, only because it dramatically reduces the variety of EPTs I see used. Who in their right mind would ever take Elusiveness when for only 1 point more you could have an evade every turn? Playing with Daredevil is a lot of fun, and I don't ever regret taking it. I feel like I get my points out of it every time. On the other hand, every time I use it I am aware the entire time that PTL would have been a better choice for that 3 points.
I feel like your overzealousness regarding PTL is pretty far off base. All those people you list off acting like they all see PTL all the time is ridiculous. Mauler? Marksmanship is the way i like to go. Howlrunner? Swarm Tactics or Squad Leader (since you're already trying to stay close to everyone anyway). Firespray? Expert Handling, Marksmanship. Someone mentioned Bombers here or in another PTL thread? Marksmanship, Adrenaline Rush, Expert Handling, Veteran Instincts. These are all better options.
I will offer the dissenting opinion.
I actually think Dare Devil is quite good, and easily worth the 3 points. The fact that you do it as an action is huge, allowing you to adapt to your opponent's moves.
Unfortunately, it appears weak because it is in the same slot as the terribly undercosted Push the Limit. PTL is easily worth 5 points, it dramatically improves every single ship it is put on. Even at 5 points you would still be hard pressed to find a better value, at 3 points it is an auto-include on nearly every ship that can carry it. What other EPTs do you regularly see? There are a bunch of them, and all of them are pretty good in some way, but I would venture to guess that PTL hits the table twice as often as all the other EPTs combined. Interceptors? Push. Howl? Push. Firespray? Push. Gee, Mauler isn't really all that great, but if you had 3 more points to spend what upgrade could you put on him that would outperform PTL, especially in the EPT slot? Just think of how difficult Chewie would be to kill in the Millenium Falcon if he had.... wait for it... Push. Even Han Solo gains pretty dramatically if he has PTL to get an evade on his Falcon. The only ship I don't think PTL works on is Vader, and that is because he can already do it.
Push the Limit is one of my least favorite cards in the game right now, only because it dramatically reduces the variety of EPTs I see used. Who in their right mind would ever take Elusiveness when for only 1 point more you could have an evade every turn? Playing with Daredevil is a lot of fun, and I don't ever regret taking it. I feel like I get my points out of it every time. On the other hand, every time I use it I am aware the entire time that PTL would have been a better choice for that 3 points.
I feel like your overzealousness regarding PTL is pretty far off base. All those people you list off acting like they all see PTL all the time is ridiculous. Mauler? Marksmanship is the way i like to go. Howlrunner? Swarm Tactics or Squad Leader (since you're already trying to stay close to everyone anyway). Firespray? Expert Handling, Marksmanship. Someone mentioned Bombers here or in another PTL thread? Marksmanship, Adrenaline Rush, Expert Handling, Veteran Instincts. These are all better options.
I wouldn't necessarily say better in all those cases. Certainly different.
I think the benefit of PtL is the forgiveness it provides. Make a mistake in the choice of manoeuver and PtL can save you with a barrel roll and boost or focus + evade, or for higher PS guys can allow you to get that focus + TL shot in if you find yourself at range 1 of someone you weren't expecting, or even for secondary weapons armed ships can allow use of ordinance with focus before going pop. All of these are useful for the beginner/intermediate player.
For the advanced player PtL is less important as they are better able to avoid situations where they need a sudden focus/evade or similar. So they can use the other EPT more effectively.
I quite like teaching players using 100 pts with the following rebel squad. Very forgiving in action terms and in manoeuverability.
2 x Green Sq with PtL + Stealth
2 x Blue Sq with Adv Sensors
I will offer the dissenting opinion.
I actually think Dare Devil is quite good, and easily worth the 3 points. The fact that you do it as an action is huge, allowing you to adapt to your opponent's moves.
Unfortunately, it appears weak because it is in the same slot as the terribly undercosted Push the Limit. PTL is easily worth 5 points, it dramatically improves every single ship it is put on. Even at 5 points you would still be hard pressed to find a better value, at 3 points it is an auto-include on nearly every ship that can carry it. What other EPTs do you regularly see? There are a bunch of them, and all of them are pretty good in some way, but I would venture to guess that PTL hits the table twice as often as all the other EPTs combined. Interceptors? Push. Howl? Push. Firespray? Push. Gee, Mauler isn't really all that great, but if you had 3 more points to spend what upgrade could you put on him that would outperform PTL, especially in the EPT slot? Just think of how difficult Chewie would be to kill in the Millenium Falcon if he had.... wait for it... Push. Even Han Solo gains pretty dramatically if he has PTL to get an evade on his Falcon. The only ship I don't think PTL works on is Vader, and that is because he can already do it.
Push the Limit is one of my least favorite cards in the game right now, only because it dramatically reduces the variety of EPTs I see used. Who in their right mind would ever take Elusiveness when for only 1 point more you could have an evade every turn? Playing with Daredevil is a lot of fun, and I don't ever regret taking it. I feel like I get my points out of it every time. On the other hand, every time I use it I am aware the entire time that PTL would have been a better choice for that 3 points.
I feel like your overzealousness regarding PTL is pretty far off base. All those people you list off acting like they all see PTL all the time is ridiculous. Mauler? Marksmanship is the way i like to go. Howlrunner? Swarm Tactics or Squad Leader (since you're already trying to stay close to everyone anyway). Firespray? Expert Handling, Marksmanship. Someone mentioned Bombers here or in another PTL thread? Marksmanship, Adrenaline Rush, Expert Handling, Veteran Instincts. These are all better options.
I didn't say that there are no other EPTs that can work, only that PTL is better. Mauler's main issues are that it is not always easy to get to R1, and that if he does trade fire at R1 he dies as well. PTL so that you can Barrel Roll + Focus so you can get that good R1 shot in, often from out of their arc. Or if you are going straight in Focus + Evade and Mauler is much more likely to survive the turn.
Howlrunner? Swarm Tactics is OK for 2 points, but Squad Leader is terrible. The very last thing you want to do with a ship that provides a free Target Lock lite to every ship nearby is give up her action and get her killed. PTL for Focus + Evade and she will live a LOT longer. PTL is a far better buy for 3 points than Stealth to keep her alive.
Firesprays? I love to run them with Expert Handling. Very cool. Kath sometimes gets some mileage out of Marksmanship. But compare either of those to getting your choice of Target Lock + Focus for the very hard hit, Focus + Evade to keep it alive longer (Firesprays take approximately forever to kill if they evade every turn), or if you combine with an Engine Upgrade Boost + whatever for the win.
Bombers are the most extreme example of where you are incorrect. PTL allows you to move up, Target Lock + Focus and fire a Torpedo/Missile. With any of the ordnance, especially the APT, this combination is far and away more effective than Marksmanship, Expert Handling (Really? 2 points for a very small chance that you can shed a Target Lock?), Adrenaline Rush (decent choice, but only 1 point so not really comparable), or Veteran Instincts (again 1 point plus this is already going on either Jonus or Rhymer, do they need more PS to be effective?)
I am not claiming that the other EPTs are bad, or overcosted. That is where I differ with a quite a few people, I feel like the other EPTs are exactly where they should be (for the most part, looking at you Expose). But if you have 3 points left over, it is very hard to find another upgrade that will give you as much value, unless you are looking for very special interactions such as Marksmanship + Kath. But even in those cases, I would argue that PTL is going to offer you as much value or more than Marksmanship would have much of the time.
Edited by KineticOperator