Tader Salad said:

...Legacy? What's that?

MarcoPulleaux said:

Something that some of us play on a somewhat regular basis.

Antigoth said:

I'll say this much: Legacy helps feed Combos like none other. While there may not be a ton of 5 difficulty high weapons as of right now, there sure as Hell are if you include Legacy.

Despite the fact that we have more URs in boxes, I, too, also have a slight issue with Controller being a UR.

HOWEVER.

I don't think it should have been UC or Common. Rare would have been sufficient.

And on Siggy's Earth Divide (and don't mention FoF'ing it-I know already). I'm honestly not impressed. Good? Yes. Great? Not really. It's not all that easy to push through (Ways of Punishment will be as controlled as humanly possible if you're fronting an Earth deck, for example). Plus, I've seen QUITE a lot of High Blocks in this set.

His attack that can make itself a multiple 2, however, is VERY beast. The combo requirement is incredibly easy to fufill (Can you say Ichi No Tachi?)

My favorite Mid Weapon Stun Throw move on Air/Fire is Chain Throw.

just sayin'.

now, now sir.

That's Block 2.

=p

HolyDragonCloud said:

Just use Tira and give it Multiple

HolyDragonCloud said:

FoF + Rapheal = 26 speed 26 damage...its so sad how much he gets overlooked =(

Rapheal got a ton of toys this set.

Makingsenseofus said:

It's funny because you're wrong.

Your kill turns revolves around using this card and that card? Protect them or be faster than Owlface. Run asset destruction, run asset committal, acquire either one of the Scrolls. Or run more than one win condition so if one gets disrupted you can piece together the other.

Go dual symbol for protection, jesus christ you can dual symbol every possible combination in this game.

It's also funny that you mention Chester's Backing/Bitter Rivals/BRT because those all have evil and when you've got twelve Evil cards in your All deck (which is what you seem to be insinuating here), you should also be running Red Lotus and Oral dead as splashes to protect them.

Try talking to me about Water.

Water is my favorite symbol, and it STILL has no persistent Owl defense. Am I here asking for it? Nope, because I don't need it. I field too many DEAL WITH ME NOW ZOMG cards that my tiny little speedbumps like Altered Mind and Body win the game for me while they're 1-2 copies of Olcadon's Mentoring try and chew through my Chester's Backings/Battle Prowess. Did I mention I happen to be recurring Nature's Force? If Red Lotus goes down to stop a ChiBoxing they lose an Owlface.

QQ more and learn how to play. I don't want Hata handing every symbol every answer to everything, because then what is the point of playing with symbols in the first place?

Archimedes said:

Dual symboling is not for everyone. In fact, if there are not enough playable cards with both symbols, you are effectively going to cut the amount of cards you can play per turn in half. Also, you are running starter sakura- a character with one of the best form abilities ever printed. Good choice. B/c the ability to recur natures force is not going to be easily available to everyone. And the point of playing with symbols in the first placed is compromised when there is a card that every symbol can run.

I am not going to continue this argument further, because it is clear that our difference in opinions is only leading to harsh feelings, and I have no desire to make any forum going enemies. I will say that telling me to learn how to play the game is going to far though. You do not know me, and I don't know you, so please do not insinuate that I am a bad player based on my opinions of the metagame. I may not be the most distinguished player out there, but I play against some of the best decks in the format every single week piloted by Alex Marco and Ben Shoemaker, not to mention all of the other guys at our shop with amazing ideas to bring to the table. And I have beaten all of them at one time or another. Please do not talk down to me, or any player for that matter, it is insulting and rude, and does not help inter-forum relations.

Here's hoping we can put this behind us.

HolyDragonCloud said:

IN-DEED.

Makingsenseofus said:

If its any sort of support, I agree with you for the most part, Some symbols just can't effectively play around Olcs, and splittling to find ways to deal with it often causes more problems then just dealing with them doing it. Everytime someone says "just play good foundations" as a solution to olcladans it is a exercise in being a short-sighted and intentionallly ignorant of what olc's can do. While occasionally early on in a game it can be hard to use olc's due to them not flipping many foundations you are ready to give them by midway through the game EVERY deck has some foundations in it you are perfectly okay with them having multiple of, All and void are partcularly apt to this problem due to a relatively low quality of low diff foundations and many high quality but situation specific foundations. Splitting is a choice, but it is also a sacrifice, All deck's are all over the place foundation spread-wise and splitting in Evil? What the hell all-char has evil again in block 3? I think only Balrog and Karin, not exactly the pick of the litter. All doesn't split into anything all that effectively right now as far as building goes, I can't speak on the behalf of void but I doubt it is much better. And neither symbol has had a Tournament-level viable solution to olcs.

Anti-Goth listed like 10 ways to deal with Olc's as a all deck, it is a shame they are all terrible and not even worth considering in a all deck. Controller is a must play for both All and Void, making it a UR makes it a need 4 of for two decent symbols in every deck, aka a chase UR, which is not neccessarily a bad thing, but when newplayer01 is building his awesome new All Ryu Deck he is going to be really unpleasantly suprised at the Magic-Like level of money involved in getting all the cards together(All is easily the most expensive deck in the meta at this point built opitimally). I don't like it being a UR at all, but the fact that the card exists finally makes up for it somewhat. For Everyone who thinks it won't be a chase card and they don't think it will be expensive as knightbreaker and gnomes ect, please hit me up on aim and sell me your controllers, thanks.

Its a main reason dual and tri resource decks I think are becoming more popular . If you want too defend against mentoring then play outside the box.

I'm seriously tired of "But new players won't be able to deal with ocladons if they're running a all deck and will be upset at how much money they have to spend to get up to a tournament level". I'd like remind everyone that a new player won't have the cards to deal with -ANYTHING- without laying out a fair amount of cash to begin with unless people are just giving them cards. A new player won't also have BRT's, Chesters, and Lord of the Makai which according to some people are auto includes and you need them to be competitive. And all of those cards are even harder to get than a ultra rare in a set where ultra rares are easier to pull and not to mention just came out so its fairly easy to track down. Its also ignorant to make the argument to talk about new players and playing at the tournament level and the cost involved. Every game out there, with the exception of chess, Go, and games of that nature, essentialy requires you to spend a lot of money to get to the tournament level. This is not a new idea. This is not something unique to UFS. This is not even unique to card games. Its wholy ignorant, and only serves to distract from real points, to draw them into the conversation about Controller of Souls and whether or not it deserves UR status.

Failed2k: Anti-Goth listed like 10 ways to deal with Olc's as a all deck, it is a shame they are all terrible and not even worth considering in a all deck.

Yoga Adept is not even worth considering? Oh right 2 check. I forgot you can't play those and be competitive right? He even mentioned controler of souls in there too. Beyond that he didn't even mention the one card that every symbol has access to which is Seal of Cessation.

BlindProphet said:

Its not that yoga adept is a bad card, its just that most people would rather use it to get rid of chesters/ seal of cessation ect. than use it on the lowest cost, most easily spammable card ever printed. Also, I don't know if you have tried it, but sealing olcadon's: very difficult. You need a VERY good way to recur seal repeatedly, and this also takes away one of the best methods of negation available to a deck. About ultra rare's: I'm part of a 7 person card sharing group who has probably over 2000 cards, and we still can't get 1 feline spike. Granted, I do not know anything about the new distribution as I have yet to open a box of the new set, but in the past, quality ultra rare's have been VERY hard to come by, made worse when they are sought after. Which this card will be by any void/ all players who want to just have to run monosymbol or any chaos players looking for a new way to negate Seal of Cessation. Its not that we don't have the funds, its that the stuff we want, is rarely online. And yes, trading is a viable option, unless you are trying to build not one but SEVEN viable decks so everyone has something good to play. We have gotten by without feline spikes; while it is very good, it is not completely necessary to survive in the format. But this card was developed to combat an overly prevelant game mechanic that makes 2 monosymbol decktypes fall apart at the seems.

BlindProphet said:

Yoga Adept was the best solution on that list(not counting controller), but it is a difficult play for a lot of builds for obvious reasons, if you are willing to play it as a solution and you have the room for it kudos to you, for me the card was just as inclined to slow my tempo and bomb me out of early turns as it was apt to help me out.. Mentioning Seal is kind of pointless, seal stops EVERYTHING, with no exception, it is a cure-all, stop-all solution, if you can stop their olcs with seal, they cant stop your seal with seal, I play the heck out of seal personally and yeah, I'll use it on olcs, but I dont think of it in the solution vein, it is the universal solution, it can be brought up in every discussion off of every symbol about every card pretty much.

And no, the new player concept is not new or fancy, and any card game takes a money investment, but it doesn't make the point any less valid(or suddenly ignorant) in my eyes, if anything you argued for it by listing all the cards that are already going to take a decent chunk of money out of pocket to obtain, and you didn't even list everything. I didn't bring up the point to insult the concept of having chase cards, or card games as a whole. UFS has stayed away from UR foundations for nearly its entire life(I think it has had 2 UR foundations pre set 12) for whatever reason, but this was a good thing because Foundations make up 2/3rd of every deck and foundation effects are not easily replaceable. You want a 5diff5damage attack with a decent effect? There is many expensive ones and there is a few cheap alternatives. Is there any Alternative to Controller of Souls or Chesters? No there isn't, those cards are one of a kind for their symbol and need to be played. The fact that most foundation bases were(are still in some cases) comprised of Commons and Uncommons for the majority of UFS's life leveled the playing field a bit for newer players, because maybe they didn't have the Super Nice ShadowBanishment, or they don't own Feline Spikes, they found ways to replace those cards as best they could with things like Lunar Slash and MMercusis and sure, the deck isn't optimal but it would still play competitively with a decent foundation base(Air is great at being cost friendly for example). Take Away Chesters/Lord of the Mak/BRT and Controller of souls from a deck, and that deck will get crushed by anyone who has these cards, even if you have the upper crust of attacks in the game.

Foundations USE to be easily accessible, but the boxtopper/promo foundations of the Block 2 Era threw a huge monkey wrench into that, this is not the fault of James or anything, I'm not here to slam the company, but things changed when stuff like BRT and Amy's started hitting, the game got flat out more expensive. At Worlds 2007 My deck might of costed 50 dollars total, tops, on a expensive day. At worlds 2008 my deck costed hundreds of dollars, probably 500 dollars worth of singles if I had to take a guess.

Block 3 was a chance to start the seeds of moving back to the ways of old. In Block 4 ALL of those Really stupidly expensive foundations were going to rotate, ALL of them. If they kept the ways of old in that portion of the rarity scheme, the rarest foundation would be Rare, and rare's generally never break 10 dollars at most(a few limited exceptions). This once again would make block 4 very cost accessible for new players. The price friendly attack Alternatives coming out in set 12 are amazing, James has designed some wonderful attacks on all steps of the rarity scheme, a improvement over the days of old when well over half the attacks in a set would never see play outside of sealed. I just wish the Foundation rarity plan would of stuck in place, because now block 4 is going to feature the same problems that riddled block 2 and will Block 3, some symbols just won't be playable without dropping a lot of money.

If that doesn't make my point make a little more sense, then I dont know what will. The New player cost arguement can be a crutch people use to whine about cards, that isn't what im doing. I'm not upset because the game costs money, I'm upset that what made the game so wonderfully accessible in Block 1(Most symbols could be played fairly cheap) has been missing for 2 blocks now, and is on the way to being missing in block 4 as well.

Just to further on the previous post. My Felcia deck was probably the most expensive pile of cardboard I've ever run in any game. All prices are in American dollars.

Sideboard:

3x Tiar's Contract: $18

3x US Air Base: $30

Mainboard:

3x Blinding Rage: $15

3x Chester's Backing: $72

3x Lord of the Makai: $60

4x KoF 2006: $16

3x Olcadan's: $24

3x Seal of Cessation: $22.50

4x Feline Spike: $120

2x Ira Spinta: $44

3x Heel Snipe: CoolStuff doesn't have any up, so I'll just go on the assumption of $20 a pop so $60

Total Cost: Just the rares/promos alone came to a total of 481.50 or 590.89 in Canadian dollars. I could sell the deck (at market price) and have almost my whole month's rent saved up! Now I agree that you gotta spend money in order to be competative, but really... 600 dollars for ONE deck? That's a lil much for anyone.

Oh and to tack on, I know that's just one site and it's all supply and demand, but it's easier to get most of that there then it is to crack pack after pack, especially when the set with Spike and Spinta will never be seen again.

failed2k said:

See I disagree with you. At the moment, to me at least, all of the symbols are quite playable at the casual level where new players tend to start out at. I don't see Controller of Souls, Chesters Backing, BRT, Seal of Cessation, Owlface, Defender, or any other promo/super rare you want to name, as nessicary to be playable in the casual environment where new players start in general. Now you make a point that with attacks you can go with lower price attacks instead of the big names like spike. And that is true to a point that ends almost abruptly when you hit tournament play.

As for foundations should be all easily accessible no more rare than rare, ect ect ect. I don't really believe in that. Yes while foundations typically make up the core of a deck, the direction the game seems to be going is towards attacks being the heart of the deck. Now you also talk about block 4 when all the problem cards go away. Well when that happens Owlface, the card you think Controller should be a lower rarity because of, goes away and the usefullness of Controller will, likely, be a bit more limited which is exactly what Super Rares should be. Powerful, but more towards the niche side of things.

the problem with olcadon's is when a player gets 2-4 out in the first 3 turns. noone should have a big problem with 1, but if multiple hit the field it's extremely hard to come back and win a game.

and yes im talking about you mr i get 2 out every first turn.

Ziephnir said:

lol, sorry if I sometimes pull dumb draws against you

Makingsenseofus said:

To your first point about Yoga Adept, if Owlface hitting the board essentialy means you loose I think more than anything else thats what you'd use it on. As for Sealing Owlface...yup its limited in use. Very much so. But if its going to ruin your chances to win...see above about adept.

As for if this card was developed to combat Owlface? Eh I don't believe it was created to combat owlface. I believe it was created as a niche foundation to combat assets. I say niche because after the next rotation I don't think we're going to be seeing a ton of assets like Owlface.

Ziephnir said:

Not even Controler of Souls helps you against that.

BlindProphet said:

However, regardless of if it was created to combat owlface or not, it is still all and void's only solid and consistant answer.

Of course, the whole ultrarare argument does take a bit of a turn when you factor in the other possible utilities of the card. Most symbols' only answer to SoC has been SoC, this opens up a new answer for void and all players, giving it a bit more usefulness. I believe as a rare or uncommon it would have been just as sought after, but easier to obtain, making it better on those who wanted to play it but would be worried about its availability as an ultra rare. After all, Lotus and oral dead have WAY more uses than just stopping foundations from being destroyed.

As it stands, I have so far purchased 2 from CSI. They were $10 each. I then checked the price a while later (they were still sold out), and it had gone up $10.

Now the chasing will begin. If we are lucky, the cards will begin to stockpile and less people will buy them and the price will go down. This would mean those who want to competetively play all even without all of the promo's that make the symbol so good could get a decent chance at them. This is optimistic thinking of course. One doesn't really need every single all chase promo to make a good deck with it; Dragoku only ran chester's backing in his Gief deck and got top 4 at the SEC (he was dualing mountain for blinding rage). But olcadon's mentoring can really mess people up. That card rearranges staging areas in a pretty game breaking way. And every deck not having an easily accessible answer to it makes certain symbols more viable than others.

BlindProphet said:

Chaos.

Your Turn 1. Foundation, Olcadan's, Olcadan's, Olcadan's.

My Turn 1: Controller of Souls, Red Lotus, Oral Dead.

I once had a guy in our playgroup play out all 4 of his olcadan's when I was playing chaos... boy was that funny...