I find the idea of a gate clue chart intreguing and it would be easy(ish) to impliment

The way I envision it working would be the clue deck is divided into 3 roughly equal parts (approx 25 cards per type? see discussion below). When a clue is discovered a token (glass bead) can be placed on a chart (for the entire party or for the individual, I suspect the party is better) of all possible clues. When the investigators had gather all three clues relating to a given gate it can be sealed. The clue cards can also be discarded to gain a bonus depending on the type of card. This means that early on the investigators probably won't be able to seal any gates but later they can close lots of gates. (If this rule set proves to be too easy the investigators could be required to spend a clue to add a token to the chark Otherwise, a "key clue" system could be added whereby the investagators must spend a relevant clue card to seal again in addition to the rules above. In fact, this rule may be necessary for larger groups as there is not other way to scale the difficulty of sealing gates).

Looking over the board and card decks to develop the clue deck I learned that there are 26 locations (divided into 9 neighborhoods) on the board, 8 dimensions used on gates (and 1 only on monsters), and 4 colours used 5 times. with 1 card per location (26), 3 per symbol relating to gates (24) and 6 per colour (24) a roughly equal deck of 74 cards can be produced. But such a deck would ignore the moon sybol (only has monsters) and has a disporportionate number or colours. (while the colours would have been necessary for my former system I think their numbers can be scaled back.(possibly to 3 per colour). I also think that it would be good to have clues relating to the moon symbol. I noticed the number of monsters with a particular symbol are not proportional (although their appears to be a relationship based off of their dificulty). Previously I needed to balance the number of symbol cards to facilitate gate sealiing, but with the chart system balance becomes slightly less important. Therefore I think a few symbol cards can be added to the deck. I'd also like to add some miscilancious clues.

so here is the deck as I envision it at this point

-26 nighborhood cards (3 per neighbor hood, except French Hill), grant an +3 bonus on checks in the given neighborhood when discarded

-12 colour cards (3 per colour), grants a +3 bonus on check in corresponding dimension when discarded

-30 symbol cards (3 per symbol, including moon = 27, +1 moon, circle, and hex) +3 bonus on checks against corresponing monsters.

-7 misc cards (help find particular clues and unique items?)

for a total of 75 clue cards

A total of 21 cards must be found in order to close all the gates with this rule system, but redundency of cards means that a larger number will be needed gain a victory (if anyone is good at finite/probability theory I'd like to know how many cards are needed to sucure a likely victory). ( 30 are required for a seal victory in the regular game).

I'm still not sure what a fair bonus on discarded clues is given the increased difficulty of matching a clue to a situation.

A far as producing a story is concerned, I think that by using the fact that all monsters of the same type have the same symbol and all gates of the same type have the same symbol a "story" can be peiced together for each symbol in the flavour text.

Clue card seem like a good idea but look like to much book keeping... like corruption cards... so time consuming to look over all of them each time the movement part comes up on the Mythos card ><

plus they look like they take away your ability to seal gates!

Good work Loren!

What you have come up with seems well reasoned, and not overly complex. I might go with the option that when a clue is found the investigator must immediately decided if they are going to keep the clue for its listed ability or put towards the gate chart. This is knowledge gained, and not some fuzz super choice. It forces the investigators to make chooses early in the game that might have dire consequences later.

Another option is that a gate with a - sealing point option requires that many clues, regardless if the investigators have learned how to seal gates from that dimension/location.

The miscellaneous cards could be story cards.

Just add some textual flavor, a sentence or so and now a reason for the madness begins.

If it works, after Innsmouth comes out, perhaps the larger expansion can be included.

One more thing Loren. Instead of having all clues +3, since their are three clues per area/gate/monster then why not have specific +1, +2, +3 clue cards. I rather find this quite devilish. So early in the game you find your first clue. It is +3 crescent moon. Nice! But do you keep it or do you spend if for gate research? Oh, the pain.

"This means that early on the investigators probably won't be able to seal any gates but later they can close lots of gates. "

You have the core problem right there. Arkham horror isn't a game about chugging along and slapping down Mahjong for a super ultra win at the end - it's a game about continuously fighting a potentially losing battle while racing against several clocks to secure an attrition victory. As your seals count up, so too does the Doom Track. If you can't seal early but you can freely seal late, that just means that you lose the game - especially in 2 or 3 player variants.

The fact that my interpretation of what you meant as your near final Clue Cards version (note: your description seems to change its mind halfway through, so I don't entirely know what you mean) would increase the number of clues needed to seal by about a third isn't even important. The important part is that if you can't seal gates at a measured rate throughout the game you can't win Arkham Horror . There are many games that can be one in that manner (such as Rummy), but Arkham Horror simply is not one of them. Your overhaul goes too far. Or perhap not far enough, if you know what I mean.

You could make a game similar to Arkham where people got to go places and draw from clue decks that gave them things that were essentially tasks, with the game being won by completing some combination of tasks. That would be fine. But a game where the players are trying to put together one of several different potential player victories while spot fixing things that threaten to advance one of several different potential player defeats, while interesting, is a rewrite way out of scope with a patch to replace Arkham Horror Clue Tokens. Seriously.

-Frank

Well, it might not work, but as of yet it hasn't even been tested. It could work rather nicely or offer an interesting variant. How is one to know?

It seems like a hassle with lots of players, but with maybe four or less, it might be rather fun.

I think you might be surprised Frank, but Loren, might be inaccurate when he discusses a quick gate build up. I don't see why four investigator's couldn't within three turns have the clues to lock down two gates, and be on the way to a fourth.

lemmingsunday said:

Because some of us are good at probability. We don't actually have to build decks and play them to understand what kinds of results we would get out of taking arious numbers of draws out of them.

-Frank

Loren. A game can be ripe with clues early on, as you know, so in a clue heavy game gate closings using the gate chart are likely. On the other hand a clue starved game can happen as it is, and the gates run away. That is part of the lovely randomness of any one Arkham Horror game to another.

Now I assume, that when an investigator gains a clue token, they get to choose where to research on the clue chart?

You've mentioned to "seal" gates, so my take is that investigators can still close gates, without spending clues. If that is so, then in a four investigator game, if three investigators gathered clue tokens and researched them and the fourth investigator entered a gate, within the first turn the investigators would be in a position to seal a gate. That is a better start then most games currently. In the first four turns the investigators could likely seal two gates, and quickly be on to a third. Not bad. Maybe, a little too good.

Furthermore, how might an investigator use the clues they may start with? Might they research them? Would they do this before the first gate is revealed?

I realize that this post is old but I didn't think that such a great idea should stay buried. Here is what I've been working on.

Clues are mainly used against monsters and gates so I made them specifically for that but also included an inherit downfall for possessing the clue to balance out the benefit. The idea for the negatives with the symbols is that if you know something too early and then a gate opens, it has an effect on you. The way these will work is, you don't get these clues at the start of the game but rather you get a clue card when you pick up clues after beginning.

I realize the flavor text here is on another card, i will fix that.

Now, on to the Location Clues. The idea here is you are punished for a gate opening up while you already have the clue. The folks in the neighborhood punish you for not doing something about the threat.

The idea here is the "shady character" beats you up for the monster trophies or loss of stamina from the beating if a gate opens in the area.

So the only area I left out was Northside because there aren't any unstable locations there. And I also did not add the Moon symbol. Any ideas to further this project are welcome.

Here are a couple more miscellaeous clue cards. I would say the possibilites are near endless with this.

I just had a little trouble getting the wording right on this color clue. The idea is to trade in 2 clues to move to the next area when in another world but the drawback is the possibiliy of becoming lost in time and space. And sorry for the other images being so large. These are smaller.

Or we could develop a set of clues against types of monsters, although this would probably not be so good due to dilution of types of monsters.

and a couple more. Maybe these misc. clues could intersperse with the symbol, gate and color clues. So about

2 each of symbols = 16

2 each of gate = 16

4 each of color = 16

then 16 random ones for a total of 64 clues

Correction on the Location cards. If they prohibit you from using a location ability the card should read something like this.

"If a Gate is open in the Uptown Neighborhood and you have this clue, you cannot use the Ye Olde Magick Shoppe Location ability."

The Magick shop owner is punishing you for not doing something about that gate, but the clue gives you the bonus. That should balance it out pretty well.

I wanted to try and implement more ways for some of the expansion cards to enter play since it seems they rarely do. So I used these clue cards to do so.

So is this not giving anyone ideas to spawn a set of clue cards? I think it's a great idea that only needs some refinement.

Any updates on this by chance, its been a few months.

SilverleafBGG said:

This is a great idea, and I'd like to see it completed (and I'll be glad to help with that). But instead of 64 cards, I would suggest a target of 54 cards. That way a custom deck can be made and purchased through places like Artscow. Change it to 2 each of color and 14 random ones and that would do it.

While I have not read through some of the extensively thought out posts on this idea, I do have one of my own to suggest. Forgive me if this has been thought of already.

Another way to incorporate the clue cards would be to have clue cards act like missions. This makes sense to by giving the clue a story, which was my interpetation of the idea.

When a player collects a clue token, he has the option of taking a clue card (instead?). Players may only have one clue card in their possesion at any time (one per player or maybe even one per game per player...). Anyway, The clue cards would list locations where the players would have to go collect clues from basically like the clue they found at witch house suggested they could learn more by visiting and searching the historical Society, etc... (this could even be set up where the clue cards are created so they are location specific.) Or a deck could be made so that each card shows a location. Players would draw 3 clue cards to build the mission, so its not the same each game.

Players collect clues the normal way, but if they finish the clue card, they get some minor benefit from doing so, maybe something like the cards posted in this thread or the player can avoid a sanity loss, injury madness, etc...

Detriments could be added also for failed cards, but I am less sure of this idea.

This is just first thoughts on this and I have not fleshed out the full idea and doubt I will. I posted this for inspiration for others who wish to pursue this if they like it. Just some thoughts on this that I feel are less complex than what has been suggested thus far.

Good idea, but I don't like the current name of the cards.

"Clue card: circle"? That would ruin the atmosphere, for me, like calling a weapon that has +3 bonus "Weapon card: +3".

I suggest you take some inspiraiton from here: www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Dimensional_symbols

Now, a "Clue card: Yuggoth" would definitely be better.

The same goes for color cards. I have just recently read what Kevin Wilson wrote aboute the 4 outer worlds colours, I'm sure someone can point you to the right thread.

Re: What Bravo wrote

Nice, I'd also consider implementing the Clue Cards as a way to get clues. So clue tokens would not be discarded altogether. For example:

you put a clue token on the unstable locations

When an investigator goes on the token, he puts the token back in the cup but takes a clue card.

The card has all the information on what to do, where to go, what rolls to make to discover the occult informations you're after. When completed, you get one or more clue tokens and maybe something more. (must balance it out with how easy it was to get clue tokens without clue cards).

You could also have other effects while you have a certain clue card: monsters with a certain symbol following you every turn, bonus/malus on certain rolls, and so on. This makes it difficult to stockpile unresolved clues, so it should be carefully balanced, especially with the rewards of said clue card.

As said, the possibilities are endless.

Oh, also: why not a Luck check to earn the usual clue token, in addition to the clue card? That would balance the odds a lot.

So Ivory_Tower, choose what you like, hope you don't mind this bit of brainstorming, I felt like it Keep up the good work!

I really like this idea. I would love to implement clue cards into Arkham Horror Companion ( http://www.lukestowe.co.uk/ahc ) at some point in the future. I actually like the idea of bringing a roleplay element into the game. Including quotes or flavour text to draw when you pick up a clue token would be really good fun. I have been listening to NIN lyrics and thinking what a great clue card

"Well, the tiniest little dot caught my eye and it turned out to be a scab
And I had this funny feeling, like I just knew it's something bad

I just couldn't leave it alone
I cut off that scab
It was a doorway trying to seal itself shut
But I climbed through

Now I'm somewhere I am not supposed to be
And I can see things I know I really shouldn't see"

copyright NIN (Album: With Teeth, Track:Only)