I've hit a snag with the plans my players are making for the next game, and I wanted to get some feedback before I houseruled something and realized that I was WAY off kilter.

First, the situation:

The party is going to attempt to "remove" a neimoidian from his seat of power, whether by death or capture, during the next game session.

They've been pretty smart with everything so far; causing a small riot to distract his droids, capturing a droid to learn the basic programming and how to slice into the security system, getting to know the sewer systems to bypass the guards at the gates, brokered a deal with the human crew of the cruiser to give them supplies in exchange to "removing a problem," and setting up a sniper position.

It's that last one that caused this topic to come to pass.

The target has thick transparisteel windows. They may not be panes from a Star Destroyer, but they are meant to stop most small arms.

As things like this tend to be abstract, I'm not certain which of the following would work for a situation like this, or for hiding behind any form of "destructible" cover:

1) Offer a setback die like we already use for deflector shields or basic cover

2) Give a bonus to soak (not sure how much)

3) Give the target an "armor" rating based on thickness, material, etc. (especially true for small arms hitting a bigger thing, like shooting through a rock, or the above transparisteel).

My gut wants to go with the Armor rating/soak bonus, as the attack has to go THROUGH the object first. I don't think the "cover" rules really work as you can SEE the target, but it's a matter of the blaster bolt actually hitting the target through the obstruction.

Yes, I know you can argue that deflectors work in a similar fashion in that you can see the target and still get a setback, but we don't see much precedence of a blaster rifle getting through the shields of a YT-1300, so there's not much to work with here.

Has anyone else dealt with this at their table and, if so, how did you go about resolving it?

I like the idea about it being like an armor they have to punch through. So giving a soak value seems reasonable to me. The window may also have wound points to it as well. It all depends on how much you want to hinder the group. It sounds like they have come up with some good plans, so I wouldn't try to counter them to much. I would say this window might have an armor of 1, soak of 3, and wound points 3. So it is possible that one shot would not take out the target.

Again, it really depends on how badly you want to stop the group from doing this.

I like the idea about it being like an armor they have to punch through. So giving a soak value seems reasonable to me. The window may also have wound points to it as well. It all depends on how much you want to hinder the group. It sounds like they have come up with some good plans, so I wouldn't try to counter them to much. I would say this window might have an armor of 1, soak of 3, and wound points 3. So it is possible that one shot would not take out the target.

Again, it really depends on how badly you want to stop the group from doing this.

My original notes were vehicle scale Armor:1, so they would need a VERY good shot with their rifle to even punch through it (Extreme Range, standard rifle with unmodified marskman barrel, 2Y1G dice pool). I didn't want to make it impossible, but I also didn't want to make it so easy that they could just shoot him through the window from the first floor with a pistol.

I'd be inclined to say it simply stops small arms fire and you'd need a ship weapon or something similar. However may be there is a way to open them via slicing or manual access in the hall or by sending in a sliced maintenance droid. Maybe this will startle the target and give the sniper a small "window" of opportunity to take the shot however.

I like it union. Perhaps they have to coordinate and synchronize their actions perfectly. Don't roll a threat or two or the action is taking longer than it was supposed to...

I like the idea about it being like an armor they have to punch through. So giving a soak value seems reasonable to me. The window may also have wound points to it as well. It all depends on how much you want to hinder the group. It sounds like they have come up with some good plans, so I wouldn't try to counter them to much. I would say this window might have an armor of 1, soak of 3, and wound points 3. So it is possible that one shot would not take out the target.

Again, it really depends on how badly you want to stop the group from doing this.

I don't really like the idea of inanimate objects having Wound Thresholds. The PCs will eventually knock it down so it seems like a waste to potentially have multiple rolls just to break the glass. In context, you've lost your element of surprise at that point anyway. Having some type of Computers/Mechanics/Skullduggery thing to open the window sounds like a much better experience.

I like the idea about it being like an armor they have to punch through. So giving a soak value seems reasonable to me. The window may also have wound points to it as well. It all depends on how much you want to hinder the group. It sounds like they have come up with some good plans, so I wouldn't try to counter them to much. I would say this window might have an armor of 1, soak of 3, and wound points 3. So it is possible that one shot would not take out the target.

Again, it really depends on how badly you want to stop the group from doing this.

My original notes were vehicle scale Armor:1, so they would need a VERY good shot with their rifle to even punch through it (Extreme Range, standard rifle with unmodified marskman barrel, 2Y1G dice pool). I didn't want to make it impossible, but I also didn't want to make it so easy that they could just shoot him through the window from the first floor with a pistol.

Just an idea... what about the E-11/s?

not the E-11s, the E-11/s

I can't find the Wookieepedia entry anymore for some reason (thinking maybe some editor confused it for the 11s?)

But the /s was a E-11 with a mounted linked slugthrower on it, in the old Galaxy Guide 11 it was presented as a speciality assassination weapon with the stated purpose of addressing almost the exact situation presented here. The blaster shot would fire first and the slugthrower was rigged to fire immediately after allowing the slug to follow the bolt perfectly. The blastershot hits and weakens the barrier, the high velocity slug then penetrates and kills the target.

I don't have my book handy for reference to really stat something out, but you could easily put something together based on a slugthrower rifle that did something like use X advantage (say 3) to give the weapon the Breach qualty.

You might have to deal with the weapon later, but end result is really just a slugthrower that breached on a decent roll, so not horribly unbalancing or easy to seriously abuse I think....

I would probably also go with the flat soak amount, maybe 10, to reflect that only explosives or high powered weapons can breach it. On Triumph, the soak is halved (or eliminated completely). On 3x Advantage (possibly accumulated over several rounds), the window shatters, and future shots won't have to contend with it.

I'd be inclined to say it simply stops small arms fire and you'd need a ship weapon or something similar. However may be there is a way to open them via slicing or manual access in the hall or by sending in a sliced maintenance droid. Maybe this will startle the target and give the sniper a small "window" of opportunity to take the shot however.

Union, I'm digging what you are mentioning here. If my players did enough research to know about the transparisteel, they would have been all over that idea (and probably came up with a dozen different ways of handling it). As they don't know, it won't happen.

My only concern with stating that it just stops all fire from small arms is that the player may think I was picking on them (he's a rather sore loser). I also think it's partially bad form on my part to disregard a player's good idea like that. I mean, they risked their necks to get this barrel so he could play sniper, they set up the riot to distract the majority of his guards, and they learned that he loves to walk around in front of the windows. Saying "your shot hits the window and leaves a char mark" would sound like me saying "you planned and you are an idiot."

Rather, by giving even the chance of the shot getting through, even for just a single wound (or, heaven forbid, a critical), they can see that it wasn't the best of ideas, he has done his part and doesn't feel useless, and can then go and do something else. .. like rescue the rioting crowds from the rampaging battle droids and the stormtroopers that are marching in. . .

I like the idea about it being like an armor they have to punch through. So giving a soak value seems reasonable to me. The window may also have wound points to it as well. It all depends on how much you want to hinder the group. It sounds like they have come up with some good plans, so I wouldn't try to counter them to much. I would say this window might have an armor of 1, soak of 3, and wound points 3. So it is possible that one shot would not take out the target.

Again, it really depends on how badly you want to stop the group from doing this.

I don't really like the idea of inanimate objects having Wound Thresholds. The PCs will eventually knock it down so it seems like a waste to potentially have multiple rolls just to break the glass. In context, you've lost your element of surprise at that point anyway. Having some type of Computers/Mechanics/Skullduggery thing to open the window sounds like a much better experience.

I agree with Dbuntu about not having the wound thresholds, as it's pretty inane. I mean, destroying a support with a blaster and needing to do it quickly is one thing; shooting through something to deal even a miniscule amount of damage is another kettle of fish. I can see having the wounds for plot-level things like that, but not so much for a bit of "cover" like this.

Dbuntu, see above regarding my comment on slicing the windows.

As for the element of surprise, the group will be losing that rather quickly once the fighting breaks out, even without the "I wanna be a sniper someday" guy firing away.

If there's time, have one of their contacts get them a message about the transparasteel window and that their weapon won't work. Now they get to work out a solution. Maybe they can secretly replace the window with one designed or timed to open, drop, or shatter. Maybe the'll have to change the attack location. Don't set it up as an insurmountable obsticle in their way, but more of a something that they have to be creative to work around. Remember those electrical balls from episode one that the gungans used? Maybe they can get their hands on something like that to punch a big hole in the window first?

Union, I'm digging what you are mentioning here. If my players did enough research to know about the transparisteel, they would have been all over that idea (and probably came up with a dozen different ways of handling it). As they don't know, it won't happen.

My only concern with stating that it just stops all fire from small arms is that the player may think I was picking on them (he's a rather sore loser). I also think it's partially bad form on my part to disregard a player's good idea like that. I mean, they risked their necks to get this barrel so he could play sniper, they set up the riot to distract the majority of his guards, and they learned that he loves to walk around in front of the windows. Saying "your shot hits the window and leaves a char mark" would sound like me saying "you planned and you are an idiot."

I do find it hard to "think down" to Star War's steam-punk level of technology sometimes. For instance the capability to cleanly assassinate a target from orbit is utterly trivial given the technology. But it just isn't done.

But bullet-proof glass is something even we have. It maybe even shouldn't be something the GM would have to point out as being a possibility. I'd probably feel lucky he doesn't have impenetrable shields.

Transparasteel is loosely defined by that last part, steel. If it's several inches thick they`re definately going to need something special to bust it. Even with Armor 1 (or 10 wounds) you`re not going to do enough damage after the soak to kill anyone. Not with anything with less that 20 damage. I haven`t seen much for sniper rifle stats but I doubt they do that much.

I like the thought of the group needing to work together on this, maybe the unarmed politco talks his way into the room and opens the window, maybe a nimble thief sets up a remote explosive to take out the window just before the sniper shoots.

If i were a player this is how i would do it:

One player plants a bomb (sonic bomb?) on the window to remove it as an obstacle. The talker in the group goes in unarmed to see the nemodian. The pilot gets the get away vehicle ready. Sniper takes up position to take down the guards (few remaining droids). When the theif detonates the bomb the sniper takes down the guards and the politco grabs the nemodian tosses him into the speeder and away they go. Maybe have them chased by a ST-AP or something just for kicks. Live prisoners are worth so much more.

If there are set on assasination then just modify the above plan with the politco talking the nemodian into walking over near the window for a clear shot. Then running to the awaiting speeder. In short I would let them know ahead of time that the windows are blaster proof and will need to be circumvented. It's an obstacle and they have been great on planning ahead so this shouldn`t be much for them to overcome.

Adding up to two setback dice to the dice pool seems appropriate, or add somewhere between 1-3 to the targets soak value, or a combination of the two.

Or as Union points out, if its supposed to stop non-vehicle weaponry, they must find a way to open the window just as the attack happens, be it slicing or whatever, or get hold of a large enough weapon.

I'd say unless it's a vehicle weapon it won't penetrate, it's not just bulletproof glass it's a "thick transparisteel window" after all. However there is a way around this as Liberiton suggested you could have one of the PCs plant an explosive on the window that can be remote detonated by the sniper. When the PC is ready to shoot they set off the explosive destroying the window and in the confusion shoots the target. Something similar to what happened in Sherlock Holmes Game of shadows with the exploding cake.

Transparisteel in the way, grab the laser gun instead of the blaster rifle. Since light gets through the window, so does the laser.

Transparisteel in the way, grab the laser gun instead of the blaster rifle. Since light gets through the window, so does the laser.

Yes, but I would suggest that it would be bent off target. Especially for any protective glass intended to prevent assassins.

Why would it be bent off target? That would suggest distortion in the view, which is not something we ever see in any seen of the movies.

Why would it be bent off target? That would suggest distortion in the view, which is not something we ever see in any seen of the movies.

http://www2.cose.isu.edu/~shropshi/llidesc.html

Read under Light Bends. I was mainly thinking of it being a design feature of safety glass rather than a bug. After all, in a universe with laser based weapons, security glass would be designed to impair the effectiveness. Or else, that company would go out of business quick.

Edit - Here is a link that is a bit more detailed.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/refrn/u14l1e.cfm

My only concern with stating that it just stops all fire from small arms is that the player may think I was picking on them (he's a rather sore loser). I also think it's partially bad form on my part to disregard a player's good idea like that. I mean, they risked their necks to get this barrel so he could play sniper, they set up the riot to distract the majority of his guards, and they learned that he loves to walk around in front of the windows. Saying "your shot hits the window and leaves a char mark" would sound like me saying "you planned and you are an idiot."

Rather, by giving even the chance of the shot getting through, even for just a single wound (or, heaven forbid, a critical), they can see that it wasn't the best of ideas, he has done his part and doesn't feel useless, and can then go and do something else. .. like rescue the rioting crowds from the rampaging battle droids and the stormtroopers that are marching in. . .

Besides calling your player out for being a baby, I can see why you'd want to reward them for getting creative. Maybe you could just smudge a way for the window to be a non-issue. **** it you know, just let the awesome flow.

Why would it be bent off target? That would suggest distortion in the view, which is not something we ever see in any seen of the movies.

Because PHYSICS!!!!

Why would it be bent off target? That would suggest distortion in the view, which is not something we ever see in any seen of the movies.

Because PHYSICS!!!!

Well, in his defense ...the Star Wars universe on its face doesn't really worry about physics. Unless you subscribe to my belief that the force allows people to hear ships in space and laser blasts.

Why would it be bent off target? That would suggest distortion in the view, which is not something we ever see in any seen of the movies.

Because PHYSICS!!!!

Again, the windows let visible light straight through, so why would a laser in the same space be bent but other light not be? I understand the properties of reflection and refraction and again point out that we don't see any kind of distortion or refraction like you see looking down into water. If I point a laser pointer at the window what I aimed it at gets hit by that light as it goes through.

Why would it be bent off target? That would suggest distortion in the view, which is not something we ever see in any seen of the movies.

Because PHYSICS!!!!

Again, the windows let visible light straight through, so why would a laser in the same space be bent but other light not be? I understand the properties of reflection and refraction and again point out that we don't see any kind of distortion or refraction like you see looking down into water. If I point a laser pointer at the window what I aimed it at gets hit by that light as it goes through.

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Refraction.jpg

The thickness of the material increases the refraction. I would assume security windows would be thick.

Star Wars cares about physics like James Bond cares about STIs.

I'd send a spider droid up the outside wall with a small explosive device, enough to blow the window. Remote detonate it to take out the window, fire at target. Mind you, if you are not worried about taking anyone else out in the room you could just have the droid take a thermal detonator there. I'll be interested to see the Demolitionist spec once Dangerous Covenants drops. It'll probably go well with an Outlaw Tech or Saboteur. Not to mention expanding on explosives.

Why would it be bent off target? That would suggest distortion in the view, which is not something we ever see in any seen of the movies.

Because PHYSICS!!!!

Again, the windows let visible light straight through, so why would a laser in the same space be bent but other light not be? I understand the properties of reflection and refraction and again point out that we don't see any kind of distortion or refraction like you see looking down into water. If I point a laser pointer at the window what I aimed it at gets hit by that light as it goes through.

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Refraction.jpg

The thickness of the material increases the refraction. I would assume security windows would be thick.

No, it doesn't. The beam of light didn't continue to be bent more the thicker the material was (angle didn't change once it entered). So, light coming out and light going in would go along the same path. Show me a material that actually reacts differently depending on which side of it the photon originated from. The path through glass is the same from both sides. Look at how clear the view was in Padme's chamber on Coruscant that the centipedes came in through. That window wasn't distorting the view, so it wouldn't scatter a laser off target either.