Ok, sable, you need to jump on this. I own 2 of each of these but have only flown the fires pray a couple of times. I also see that the shuttle has some potential, most noteably an additional crew slot and system upgrade over the firesspray, but I cannot seem to find a good reason to take the lambda over the firespray, except jendon with bombers in 125 point plus lists. Firespray. Rear arc, invaluable. K turn, check. Crew slot, got it. Bomb, roger that. Shuttle can be great but you are going to have to add engine upgrade to make it viable at a minimum , and even then you need 2 turns to turn around. Can't shoot backwards, except APL, which is a good option but not as good as a primary rear arc. Yes it has air brakes, yes it can bring 2 crew, but it still seem inferior to the firespray in every capacity except bomber support, but even configured for that it's too expensive for a 100 point list. I like the shuttle, but the firespray seems better in nearly every other situation, and when squad building, I find I am always choosing the firespray over the lambda. Even with no upgrades, firespray is solid. Lambda, you are going to have to add a lot of stuff to make it viable, and even then it seems a little too situational. I may be completely wrong, so weigh in and tell me why the lambda is awesome. Sable has convinced me that it can be good in the right hands and the right situation, but it seems like the firespray is solid all around. Let the battle begin!

The key to the worth of the Shuttle is in its upgrades, whereas the Firespray is pretty awesome naked.
There's also the question of points.

12pt difference is pretty huge. But yes, the lambda is about options and support while packing a punch; the firespray is a punch to the face ship first that happens to have solid upgrades. Both lack additional pilots currently.

So really the question is whether or not you're looking to fly support or looking to knock teeth. The shuttle can do both but the firespray doesn't really do support.

depends on the upgrades used.

doom shuttle with vader is 24pts

chainsaw shuttle with FCS/Gunner/Engine Upgrade is 32pts

thats using the Omicron. pretty cheap and effective in the hands of a good player.

Bounty Hunter on its own is 33pts, thats a good deal but most will put at least recon specialist on it to boost its firepower/defense a little, now ur at 36pts. Thats still not bad. Most players opt for a BH or multiple Bounty Hunter's because they r the cheapest and just as powerful as the name pilots in the hands of a skill player.

slave1 name pilots are interesting - they all have reasonable abilities but at 36, 38 and 39pts for Krassis, Kath or Fett thats a fair wack of ur points and now u will want some upgrades ontop so now ur up to 40-45pts for a single ship. in a timed game that could be a liability if it gets targeted and taken out... now u have to recover those lost 40 odd points and u have just lost ur best ship - probably ur best attacking ship - see how thats a rather large hole u have gotten urself into? imo the name pilots are a bit too expensive to justify - you need balls of plexisteel to play them and a fair amount of skill to get ur money out of them in a timed match. That rear firing arc on the Slave1 is really good but it takes practice to master using it effectively. If u invest the time I think u could get really good piloting the Slave1.

IMHO the shuttle IS better because its cheaper overall and has many options to fit it out with upgrades to make it do exactly what u want. Need a support ship? You got one. Need a gunship? There it is. Need a crit delivered in a hurry? Recruit Vader as crewman but remember that Vader shuttle is on a one way mission.

The slave1 might have a better movement dial, rear firing arc, one more defense dice and a slot for mines/bombs but the shuttle is more versatile and has the element of surprise going for it (although as players wise up they will start to figure out how good it is and adjust their tactics when playing against it).

Despite all the strengths of the Slave1 im going with the shuttlehippomus.

Something you will be hearing more and more is... "Shuttle for the win!"

X-Wing is, ultimately, about maneuvering and rolling dice. The difference in upgrade slots between the Firespray and shuttle are minute enough that any opinion rendered would be completely subjective (as if opinions could be anything else). As far as maneuvering goes, the rear firing arc and superior dial give the Firespray a clear edge.

Don't get me wrong, I like the shuttle, but it seems like you pretty much have to take engine upgrade at a minimum to make it viable, and it's still a minimum 2 turn turn, which means it's out of the fight 2 or 3 times in an average game? If it is the last ship standing, it's probably toast, whereas the firespray can run and gun without penalty. It seems like you get a lot more for your points with the firespray, where you have to pile on at least engine upgrade and some crew to make the shuttle worth it.

Horse or a Lamborghini - which is superior?
Kind of depends on the situation, doesn't it?

It is true that the named pilots for the shuttle offer more options for support, but if you go the named pilot route then you are talking about a lot more points. My favorite is jendon with st321. And weapons engineer, but that is a good chunk of you force tied up in support, and even then timing and formation are critical to pulling it off. Now, give me 125 or 150 points to play with and then you might see an albino rhino on my side. Feel the same way about the hawk. In a way, this makes sense, as support ships are more potent when they have more ships to buff, and are a smaller percentage of your total point cost. Oh, feel free to add the albino rhino to our list of affectionate yet derogatory names for this beast. I am glad the shuttle is seeing some play and some respect, but in a 100 point squad I still ain't feeling it. The firespray has punch and can fly in and always hit something. The lambda has to fly through, turn around, and come back. I would ignore it while it is on it's outbound leg, when a third of your points are out of the fight. One round like that can make a huge difference. Iam going to fly it in some games and see if my opinion changes any. I like it, but the firespray is just as modular and a better base ship, seems to me. Even the buzz saw, which I like, has to turn around. You can do all of the same with the firespray except fcs, but you can use gunner fore and aft, turn in one turn, and toss out a bomb when you want for similar points.

Horse or a Lamborghini - which is superior?

Kind of depends on the situation, doesn't it?

I suspect that the situation is a space battle. We do need some kind of criteria, though. What does it mean to be 'superior'? To me, that denotes a comparison that excludes as many other factors as possible. If we take other ships out of the equation, then all of the shuttle's support abilities become moot, as do point values (since points are no longer a concern if you don't need to accommodate other ships). So, in a vacuum, the Firespray would be the superior choice.

If, instead, we try to leverage in the average performance of both ships while including as many other factors as possible, the shuttle becomes a lot more flexible than the Firespray in some respects, but is still outclassed in terms of maneuverability. I think this latter criteria demonstrates a trade off that makes the two ships roughly equal, depending on the situation. That having been said, if the Firespray is superior given one criteria and equal given the other, it is, probably, on the whole, the overall superior ship.

Ok, so here's my analysis:

You are absolutely right. The Firespray is a solid, all around excellent ship. Maneuverable, great firing arcs and good damage, lots of upgrades to play with. They work wonderfully when they operate independantly or they can provide swarm support. When someone who has never flown a large ship or who is deciding between the Lambda or Firespray for purchase comes to me and asks 'which one' i say Firespray.

The Lambda, however, is also a great craft, but it takes a lot more experience and skill to pilot it. You will have to fly through asteroids, so you must be comfortable doing that with a large ship. However, it comes down to upgrades and what you are looking for.

The base bounty hunter is 33 points. For that, you get a complete package of awesome. The base price for the OGP is 21 points and for that you get... meh. A tank with a terrible dial (with one exception of awesome). You add Engine Upgrade. Costly, but now you suddenly go from the slowest ship in the game to one of the fastest (only outstripped by the Falcon or Firespray with Engine Upgrade). Further, it makes asteroid navigation much easier because you can pre-measure.

Now, add FCS and Gunner, now we've got some heavy guns. Far superior to Firespray even with Recon Specialist. Still not great for dogfighting because of the turn radius, but great for a furball. Here's the thing, when you're stuck in a pileup, it doesn't matter if you don't have your action, because you've got target locks for free. It can take enough hits to survive and it's large base so not all their craft can shoot it. It becomes a mobile firing platform, cutting through the mess, far more than the Firespray.

Now, that speed I mentioned gives it an awesome role. That of flanker. You've got 32 points into it, which means 68 points can make a mean core fighting unit. A TIE swarm or a pair or Bounty Hunters, or any other number of scary groups. Set the ghostly space rhino to the side. They have the following choices:

Go for the bulk of your forces: You can quickly flank their forces. If you have the doomcow chasing them, suddenly turning isn't too big an issue, and you can always boost to maintain arc. They've fallen into your trap.

Go for the Lambda: You can survive a round or two of pounding while the cavalry pounds in to maul them from the side. Then, you boost the shuttle away for another pass while your main force mauls them.

Split their forces: If they send more than 32 points after the Lambda, that means the main force collision is going to be in your favor. Even if you lose the white star wildebeest, it's going to do some damage and your main force should be able to mop it up.

None of these are good options for your opponent. And that's the secret to the Lambda. You want to force your opponent to choose between several bad options, because any mistake they make, you can exploit. The power of the Lambda isn't its main weapon or its HP, or its speed. It's that it is far more likely than the Firespray to cause your enemy to make a game losing mistake. And that's why I love it.

Horse or a Lamborghini - which is superior?

Kind of depends on the situation, doesn't it?

A little biased there. Maybe a better comparison would be the Lamborghini v. a Full sized Pickup or maybe we could say a Blackhawk vs. an Apache.

I'll agree that the Firespray is superior in many categories but falls horribly behind the shuttle in one very import area: COST. Cheaper has a quality that can be hard to buy. There are reasons the USAF still uses B-52s (at least they have recently) instead of all B1s or B2s. The F-22 also hasn't eliminated all other "fighters" from US use.

Appreciate sables excellent analysis as always. As to Steven, there isn't much cost difference, if any, by the time you outfit it to do anything, and that does not change its fundamental handling or change it's firing arcs. I agree that cheap can be awesome, as 8 academy pilots can rip you to shreds in a matter of 2 or 3 rounds if they can stay out of each others way. I'll take the shuttle for a few spins and see what I think then, but I know every time I've got an enemy on my six at range 1 or 2, I'm gonna be kicking myself for not bringing the firespray. I do love the lambda in a larger point game as a bomber TL generator, especially if the play area is oversized.

Appreciate sables excellent analysis as always. As to Steven, there isn't much cost difference, if any, by the time you outfit it to do anything, and that does not change its fundamental handling or change it's firing arcs. I agree that cheap can be awesome, as 8 academy pilots can rip you to shreds in a matter of 2 or 3 rounds if they can stay out of each others way. I'll take the shuttle for a few spins and see what I think then, but I know every time I've got an enemy on my six at range 1 or 2, I'm gonna be kicking myself for not bringing the firespray. I do love the lambda in a larger point game as a bomber TL generator, especially if the play area is oversized.

Give it a try and let me know what you think. It takes getting used to, but I think you'll find it an excellent addition to your fleet.

Horse or a Lamborghini - which is superior?

Kind of depends on the situation, doesn't it?

A little biased there. Maybe a better comparison would be the Lamborghini v. a Full sized Pickup or maybe we could say a Blackhawk vs. an Apache.

I'll agree that the Firespray is superior in many categories but falls horribly behind the shuttle in one very import area: COST. Cheaper has a quality that can be hard to buy. There are reasons the USAF still uses B-52s (at least they have recently) instead of all B1s or B2s. The F-22 also hasn't eliminated all other "fighters" from US use.

To bring it back to X-Wing, there is a reason you see lists with tie fighters more than interceptors and advanced, despite the ints and adv being better ships in most conceivable ways (especially squints)

I can load out the buzz saw shuttle for less than a base bounty hunter or I can manage to fit Jonus in with 2 HLC platforms loaded up with merc copilots (which I've tried now and is hilarious against the Falcon)

You want to force your opponent to choose between several bad options, because any mistake they make, you can exploit. The power of the Lambda isn't its main weapon or its HP, or its speed. It's that it is far more likely than the Firespray to cause your enemy to make a game losing mistake. And that's why I love it.

And that's why I Iove my Boba / Kath / Curse list, but I remain unconvinced that personal preference is objectively quantifiable. In X-Wing, as in all other games, relying upon your opponent to make poor decisions is not a particularly sound strategy for winning. If we're going to compare ships, we should at least assume skill parity between the two players as well.

I'm curious to know how often you lose with your shuttle lists, to which opposing ships, and the relative skill of the people you both win and lose against.

I can load out the buzz saw shuttle for less than a base bounty hunter

By 1 point... And you still lack a rear arc, the superior dial of the Firespray, and 1 less defense dice. Yes the shuttle does have some advantages, free TL's and the gunner for the same price.

So what you have here honestly is much more of a draw. Which isn't to say that the Shuttle isn't worth taking, because it is. It's not like it's a bad choice, just not a better choice.

The problem IMO with the shuttle, is that while if you compare the low PS versions, the shuttle is on par with the firespray. When you start looking at named pilots the Firespray clearly comes out on top for 100 point games. Which again isn't all that bad of a deal, the shuttle was not designed to be a front line fighter.

So to the question of which is superior... I'd say neither. Both are good ships that you can make work in a list. Just the options for the Shuttle are slightly reduced because of the inherent support nature of the named pilots.

And that's why I Iove my Boba / Kath / Curse list, but I remain unconvinced that personal preference is objectively quantifiable. In X-Wing, as in all other games, relying upon your opponent to make poor decisions is not a particularly sound strategy for winning. If we're going to compare ships, we should at least assume skill parity between the two players as well.

I'm curious to know how often you lose with your shuttle lists, to which opposing ships, and the relative skill of the people you both win and lose against.

First, I want to say I fully agree with you that your strategy should never be to plan on your opponent making mistakes. I could have made that more clear. However, there's a difference between expecting your enemy to make a mistake and planning for that and adopting a sound strategy that also had the benefit of inducing mistakes in your enemy. While you should never count on it, you should be ready to exploit them. I think that's what the Lambda does and that's what I was referring to.

I've played against a dozen or so people ranging from low to good skill. When I run my 3 doomcow list, I've had more wins than losses. About 3-2 ratio. The biggest problem I've encountered is B-Wings, because their low agility dice and high HP means that the gunner/fcs rarely procs. On the other hand, they will utterly destroy X-Wings.

Ok, as for lists with a single doomcow, I've been running a very successful list. I currently have 6 wins and 0 losses with it. Part of that has been luck and newer players, but not all of it. I've roundly defeated veterans who know full well the power of a fully armed and operational battlecow.

But Sable, couldn't you do the flanking thing just as well (better in fact) with, say, a third Bounty Hunter?

But Sable, couldn't you do the flanking thing just as well (better in fact) with, say, a third Bounty Hunter?

Not as well, I don't think. In this capacity, the Lambda moves faster, has better damage and is, ironically, more agile than the Firespray (because you can boost after moving). It's a terror to suddenly find a doomcow in your backfield. This is one area where the albino moon caribou is a more frightful proposition.

Cool, I'll give it a shot some time

the Lambda moves faster, has better damage and is, ironically, more agile than the Firespray (because you can boost after moving).

How does the Lambda move faster? The top move it has is a 3, but the firespray has a 4. I also don't know if even with the boost, I'd consider the shuttle that much more agile then the Firespray.

the Lambda moves faster, has better damage and is, ironically, more agile than the Firespray (because you can boost after moving).

How does the Lambda move faster? The top move it has is a 3, but the firespray has a 4. I also don't know if even with the boost, I'd consider the shuttle that much more agile then the Firespray.

I'm assuming he means with the boost for the speed as a 3 plus a 1 gets the length of the ship (2) added in twice, for a total of 8, while the Firespray's 4 makes a total of 6. Similarly I figure he means it has greater damage potential when loaded up to the same points value.

How does the Lambda move faster? The top move it has is a 3, but the firespray has a 4. I also don't know if even with the boost, I'd consider the shuttle that much more agile then the Firespray.

Boost, as mentioned above means you can move far further than the Firespray.

Also, I specifically mean more agile when flanking only, since you can choose to adjust course if you are flying against lower PS ships by boosting to correct course.

The Gunner/FCS interaction means you can boost and still be largely assured of doing a least so damage every round.

The Gunner/FCS interaction means you can boost and still be largely assured of doing a least so damage every round.

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Hey, would that work with Cluster Missiles? As in you'd get a target lock after the first attack, which you could use on the second, and then again get it back after the second?

The Gunner/FCS interaction means you can boost and still be largely assured of doing a least so damage every round.

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Hey, would that work with Cluster Missiles? As in you'd get a target lock after the first attack, which you could use on the second, and then again get it back after the second?

Just looked at another thread, doesn't look there's a ship that can take both...