The Gunner/FCS interaction means you can boost and still be largely assured of doing a least so damage every round.

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Hey, would that work with Cluster Missiles? As in you'd get a target lock after the first attack, which you could use on the second, and then again get it back after the second?

Yes, that would work, but no craft currently has both Missile and Systems upgrade slots. It's a really mean combo with Gunner, since you get the target lock for use with the second attack. And there's no reason not to spend it, since you are getting it right back anyway.

The Gunner/FCS interaction means you can boost and still be largely assured of doing a least so damage every round.

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Hey, would that work with Cluster Missiles? As in you'd get a target lock after the first attack, which you could use on the second, and then again get it back after the second?

Yes, you will acquire a target lock on the second attack, now you just need a ship with systems and missiles

The Gunner/FCS interaction means you can boost and still be largely assured of doing a least so damage every round.

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Hey, would that work with Cluster Missiles? As in you'd get a target lock after the first attack, which you could use on the second, and then again get it back after the second?

Yes, you will acquire a target lock on the second attack, now you just need a ship with systems and missiles

What about the B-Spray?

Boost, as mentioned above means you can move far further than the Firespray.

Which means you've given up both your action and your maneuverability.

since you can choose to adjust course if you are flying against lower PS ships by boosting to correct course.

Which means giving up your speed.

The Gunner/FCS interaction means you can boost and still be largely assured of doing a least so damage every round.

Which again puts you on par with the Firespray at best. If you could move farther, be more maneuverable and do more damage then a Firespray then yes it would be better. But you can at best pick 1 of those 3 things each turn.

I've gained a respect for the Shuttle, but you are IMO giving it a bit too much credit by trying to give it more abilities then it can actually use in a single turn. I'd say it's on par with the Firespray, but it's not faster and more maneuverable and more damage, in the same turn at least.

If you do an engine upgrade on a BH, is their movement then not the same?

If you do an engine upgrade on a BH, is their movement then not the same?

Faster I'd have thought, but also more expensive. I like a focus on my Firesprays myself.

yes, but overal the firepower will be weaker, as you spend your action to boost. Shuttle gets a free target lock after shooting, and with gunner shoots again with that target lock

I've tried out the shuttle with engine upgrade, fire control system and gunner over 3 games, and won 1 of them (was running with 2 firesprays, 1 had seismic). I like the feel of the shuttle with all those upgrades, but I'm not quite good enough with it yet.

Current list (I call it the three stooges) is.

Omicron shuttle, darth vader 24

Firespray, seismic, recon 38

Firespray, seismic, rebel captive 38

Ultimately, to me, while I think the firespray is better then the shuttle overal, adding a shuttle instead of a 3rd firespray leaves me the points for a few upgrades, and darth lets me put crits on ships, which is lovely vs Ties of all flavours.

yes, but overal the firepower will be weaker, as you spend your action to boost. Shuttle gets a free target lock after shooting, and with gunner shoots again with that target lock

It doesn't really work that way though.

Bounty Hunter doesn't need to boost, the Shuttle needs it to come close to the maneuverability of the Firespray. The BH will normally be able to attack with at least a focus, giving it an advantage in damage.

Yes the Shuttle gets a free TL, but it only helps the gunner if you miss, which is far from a given. You also can't count on getting a shot the next turn on that same target.

The shuttle isn't a bad ship and SableGryphon has done a lot to figure out ways to make it effective and even somewhat popular around here. But even at best it is on par with the Firespray, which is a good thing, in fact a fairly massive improvement of what people thought of it when Wave 3 came out.

I look at it like this. If I can use one or the other and have them both be viable in the same role for the same amount of points then you have a well balanced ship.

For me, depends on perspective. Firespray-31 Not Imperial. Mercenary, or Bounty hunter "We don't need their sum"

Or Lambda Shuttle, Imperial used as VIP transportation, or fighter gunship support.

Shuttle:

"Command station this is ST 321 code clearance Blue. We're starting our approach. Deactivate the Security shield".

Death Star Control:

"The security deflector shield will be deactivated when we have confirmation of your code transmission. Standby... You are clear to proceed".

Shuttle:

"we are starting our approach."

I'm going to weigh in, not because I'm experienced, because I'm not, but because I have faced both cases. SableGryphon's shuttles, flown by the man himself, and a typical Firespray carrying some ordinance, flown by another person in our group.

Even with my inexperience I was able to handle the Firespray but I found myself nearly helpless against SableGryphon's pale white manatees. Not because he was vastly superior in his flying skills, although he was definately better than my other foe. It was because the ghostly fat slugs could be counted on doing damage to me, somehow, nearly every turn. The DoomCow of Doom (so redundant) is frightening once you have it played against you. A Firespray is just another ship with which you need to figure out your priorities. I may change my mind after facing SableGryphon flying a Firespray or two against me, but until then I'd much rather face a Firespray.

I would have to pick the firespray but let me give reason.

I love the shuttle, I should I have 8, and haven't had a list without one in it since its come out. However it has many limitations. Its maneuver dial is bad, worst in the game I believe. Which as I've said makes it predictable. However it also has one of the best choices the red hang in place. With proper upgrades it can be pretty strong. However as always it will fall prey to it's lack of a K turn and rear fire arc ( which I will forever argue it should have ). That leaves a weakness easily come upon, even if you set it up completely to try and mitigate this, it will happen.

Once the mystery of the AlbinoRhinoOpolis is known, it becomes harder and harder to pull out those good moments. It is tricksy, but, they are limited and with a skilled player to thwart them, become harder to attain.

Which leaves me to say that the firespray stands better, is simply maneuverability. While straight on a tooled shuttle is more punchy, a firespray stands more diverse in choices of movements that will aid in keeping it in front and rear fire arch. You need heavily to take out a ship or two on the first shuttle pass, so it coming back around won't leave you too weak from the loss of its guns, a thing a firespray can handle with proper placement and be shooting just about every round given even smallest but of luck or skill.

I will say I find the shuttle more fun to play, but that's primarily because of how hard it can be, I enjoy a challenge.

yes, but overal the firepower will be weaker, as you spend your action to boost. Shuttle gets a free target lock after shooting, and with gunner shoots again with that target lock

I've tried out the shuttle with engine upgrade, fire control system and gunner over 3 games, and won 1 of them (was running with 2 firesprays, 1 had seismic). I like the feel of the shuttle with all those upgrades, but I'm not quite good enough with it yet.

Current list (I call it the three stooges) is.

Omicron shuttle, darth vader 24

Firespray, seismic, recon 38

Firespray, seismic, rebel captive 38

Ultimately, to me, while I think the firespray is better then the shuttle overal, adding a shuttle instead of a 3rd firespray leaves me the points for a few upgrades, and darth lets me put crits on ships, which is lovely vs Ties of all flavours.

I ran the same list except recon instead of captives (captive is also unique so only 1!) and went 5-4 with it recently. Nice list but just gets chewed apart by Bwings. 3 out of 4 of my losses were vs multi bwing lists. Only other was vs a named tie swarm.

I tend to agree with what Angel said above. FCS with gunner is pretty potent to be sure. But so is gunner on a firespray, and I can cover 180 degrees with that combo every turn. If taking a named pilot with a firespray, I usually pile on expert handling, then you are a tremendous threat. I think I would dread facing sable with his shuttles, or really anything else. I suspect he would hand me my hyperdrive no matter what he was flying. I think what angel said is right, it can be rewarding to fly the shuttle, because you have to work hard to do it, and make things come together in the right way. To put it another way, the firespray is more forgiving, or more flexible. One thing I have noticed with this game that is similar to actual combat is that things don't generally go according to plan. Your enemy will do something unexpected, or as sable says, make a mistake. When that happens, you need the maneuverability to be in the position to capitalize on it, and the Swiss army like nature of the firespray would seem to make it more likely to be able to do that, a supposed to a shuttle built for a specific purpose. Even with Vader, you can only use him after making an attack, right? So if you are outbound from a gun pass, Vader is no help either if they are not in your front arc. Being able to ignore 1/3 of the enemy fleet for a round is a big deal I think. Again, I have not flown the shuttle in combat, I can see situations where it would shine, but they are just that, situations. The firespray seems better suited to that highly fluid situation known as combat. Now I'll go log some time on the shuttlepotamus and see if it changes my mind. I will say that I do like the air brakes, esp with APL, but then you lose that slot which you could fill with other great stuff. I'll give the buzz saw a try as well.

What about playing one of each in the same squad ?

I played this squad today:

Bounty Hunter + HLC + Recon Specialist (43) ... was planning on using Bobba Fett originally but opted for HLC in the end.

Omicron Group Pilot + FCS + Gunner + Engine Upgrade (32)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

versus

Chewbacca + Falcon Title + Gunner + Expert Handling

Blue Squadron Pilot + Adv. Sensors

Rookie Pilot + R2D2 ...was originally a 2nd B-Wing but my opponent who I lent ships to wanted to play an X-Wing so he did.

• My imperial squad performed well, losing a single tie-fighter (all other ships sustained pretty heavy damage, especially the BH) and the rebels just having a heavily damage Chewie fleeing off the board with 4 hull left being chased by my shuttle, BH and remaining Academy.
• Admittedly the rebels was pilot by a newbie but this game showed that Slave1 and Shuttle can actually complement each other rather well.
• Interestingly u really appreciate how good the Slave 1's movement dial is after flying the shuttle.
• My two Academy Pilots did quite a bit of damage and there were times during this game when they could switch roles from sniper to blocker which really helped this squad operate optimally.
• I discovered that flying both BH and the shuttle close to each other is difficult with the shuttles limited turning ability (those slow looping turns that use banks and boosts need quite a bit of space to pull off and having another large based ship like the BH close by moving after the shuttle can restrict the other ships movement quite a bit.

Summary: I really liked how these two ships worked together. Having two serious threats (Shuttle + BH) definitely opened up the options for those academies letting them punch above their weight.

I do agree that the shuttle can work well with the firespray. It is poor at keeping pace with its wide turns and that can be a problem fi they are too close to one another.However..

That very aspect however can be a boon for multiple shuttles, or running the bounty hunter before the shuttle. As you can road block your own shuttle by moving in front, setting up a stall before you need to hit the maneuver. Use of bumping you own big ships can keep your shuttle front arc on target longer, I've set up before 3 or 4 turns of not really moving forward, but also not stalling. Which can mess with peoples plans, simply by moving some in front of others, or activating one before another for like pilot skills.

If you run advanced sensors over Fire control, you don't even need to miss an action, if you run fire control your use of actions aren't as needed.

It's all about seizing all the advantages you can get and bumping friendly ships to stay put can sometimes be a large boon when to turn is going to take 2 or 3 turns out of the fight for you.

So sometimes using a firespray and a shuttle can prove a nice combo, as a tooled shuttle ends up a point shy to a naked bounty hunter with the buzzsaw combo. So for a turn or two lets say, you move the shuttle first, bump the firespray so you pretty much don't move anymore, firespray moves for a rear fire shot. Next turn, your shuttle hits the brakes for real, your firespray turns to front of keeps the enemy in rear sights. This forces the ship your both shooting at to either break wide, or over shoot the shuttle in his way, as if he comes in short he'll get jacked by both. Shuttle takes off clears stress and starts to turn, but by then your firespray will be well back on target and the other ship may have been forced off target to avoid the shuttle stalled in his path.

If lets say the other ship turned to keep the bounty hunter in his front arc, he may have stopped just in front of the shuttle, giving you a clean, strong shot with 4 dice. Then the shuttle moves and bumps him on your turn, clears the stress and the ship moves to go after the firespray and stays nice and and in your shuttle fire arc ( hopefully ) Either of those options can really help turn maneuver in your favor. Especially since people tend to want to target out your ships that can turn well or have a rear fire arc, over your shuttles.

A bit long winded, but figured someone might enjoy some fiendish ShuttleWallaRoo tactics of maneuver. For while you won't out handle other ships, sometimes the fine art of standing still will prove worth their weight in gold in a game where most every other ship has to keep moving.

I do stand by firespray is a more well rounded ship, and the one to work for a beginner as it is more forgiving, by a shuttle has lots of subtle tricks, that may just leave an opponent saying " Clever girl "..to the ship, not the player, of course. Unless you are one and also clever.

I used a SableGryphon Mystical Void Bison variant in a Furball match tonight. You can read up on our specific rules on a topic entitled "Successful Variant Playtest" that I just started.

Anywho, an Omicron Group Pilot + Engine Upgrades + Fire-Control Systems + Gunner + Rebel Captive wound up killing more ships than anyone else at the table, to the point where they decided to bite the bullet of my Rebel Captive a couple turns in a row to take me out. My local league is definitely impressed with it now, and are slightly terrified that I'll do it again.

I don't know if it's better or worse than the incredible stats of the Firespray, but it's a hell of a lot of fun for folks that love Combos.

To be honest, I'm more bothered about 'storyline' so as far as I'm concerned, Lambdas fit better in an imperial squad. I am a massive supporter of the firespray, but prefer using pure bounty hunter forces...

Once you've got the hang of flying a buzz-saw shuttle, it's scary and massively well-armed. Plus, if you have the points, the named pilot's abilities are really nice.

A classic Ivory Space Moose with FCS and Gunner is nice. But upgrade it to Col. Jendon, and add the ST-321 title and a weapons engineer in the other crew slot, and suddenly you're spawning more target locks than you know what to do with, and can pass them out to TIE fighters and interceptors in the vicinity....

I have been curious about the Great White Space Bus and Advanced Sensors with a Gunner. A little less killing power, but is being able to boost first then make your move worth the trade?

If it is, then you may be pushing the edge over to the Doomcow vs the Firespray.

Imagine

Shuttle, Adv. Sensors, Gunner, Engine Upgrade, Merc Co-Pilot or Rebel Captive

vs

Bounty Hunter with Recon Specialist

Point cost is a wash, is the Space Cow now getting the edge?

I've never really held that boosting first is useful on the shuttle. I've found you almost always choose a 1 bank or 1 forward as your move anyway in combat and you never really have any useful manuevers to capitalize on boosting first. In essense, getting the boost before the action doesn't really help. Advanced Sensors does benefit the shuttle in a furball greatly, since you can do your action before running into someone, making you more lethal there. But is it more lethal than the Gunner/FCS combo? I'm not certain. If only you could have both.

I've never really held that boosting first is useful on the shuttle. I've found you almost always choose a 1 bank or 1 forward as your move anyway in combat and you never really have any useful manuevers to capitalize on boosting first. In essense, getting the boost before the action doesn't really help. Advanced Sensors does benefit the shuttle in a furball greatly, since you can do your action before running into someone, making you more lethal there. But is it more lethal than the Gunner/FCS combo? I'm not certain. If only you could have both.

Boost first, then hard turn 2... 135 degrees.... without sensors the best you can do is 90 in a turn.

Also HLC is just as lethal as FCS/Gunner especially at range 3, which the shuttle should try to be most of the time.

I have been curious about the Great White Space Bus and Advanced Sensors with a Gunner. A little less killing power, but is being able to boost first then make your move worth the trade?

If it is, then you may be pushing the edge over to the Doomcow vs the Firespray.

Imagine

Shuttle, Adv. Sensors, Gunner, Engine Upgrade, Merc Co-Pilot or Rebel Captive

vs

Bounty Hunter with Recon Specialist

Point cost is a wash, is the Space Cow now getting the edge?

Yes... I believe it is. And the answer is rebel captive, now the ship firing on you is limited to greens or no actions.

now the ship firing on you is limited to greens or no actions.

Against X's or Y's with R2's, that's not a major issue.

now the ship firing on you is limited to greens or no actions.

Against X's or Y's with R2's, that's not a major issue.

Sure, but at least you're keeping them from K turning... you're still the more mobile ship at that point with sensors and engine.

you're still the more mobile ship at that point with sensors and engine.

No your not. A X-Wing with a R2 unit has 8 green, and 6 white maneuvers it can make, the Lambda only has 7 and boost. You don't really need to shed stress that next turn, it's almost always better but there may be times in which your better off using a white maneuver and no action.

7 and boost means that each of those 7 options have 3 more movement options to them... so those 7 are actually 21 options. if you have advanced sensors there is the option to move before or after so that number jumps to 42.