Yeah, a lot of people seem to have a problem with hierarchy in military-themed RPG(s). Kind of silly, but it also explains why the DW RPG recommends doing a merry-go-round for squad leadership...

I can understand if some people had issues with players who cannot cope with the responsibility of such roles, but it is kind of sad to see this result in such changes.

I guess we can be fortunate that Only War at least keeps with the hierarchy.

[edit] The Astartes/Administratum thing in the 6E chart isn't really new, it just displays the intrigueing difference between "official authority" and contemporary practice. Do note that the line connecting these organisations is dotted, after all!

I don't think it's very fun when 1 PC is always in charge of the others, and you run the risk of them acting like an ass if they have consistent IC authority. I don't get the issue if an NPC is consistently higher-ranking though.

Matter of personal preference, of course! But maybe also past experiences - needless to say, not every player makes for a good leader, and not every player makes for a good follower.

To me, it just makes for a more "rounded" game, and sometimes it really helps to determine the group's path and thus speeds up the game if you have one player in charge making decisions based on everyone's input rather than everyone in the party wanting to go in a different direction - a problem in some Dark Heresy and Shadowrun games where I've been in. Also, an NPC taking up this role just smells of railroading, even if that's not the GM's intention, simply because it is the GM's character.

That being said, you can have a player lead the group, and still have an NPC of higher rank to provide "hands off guidance". For example, my current DW group is commanded by a Deathwatch Captain, but we are still reporting to an Inquisitor supervising the operation from afar - kind of like a squad leader <-> general sort of thing, with the NPC giving us a goal, but leaving it up to the players how to "get there".

I was under the impression that GKs were not literally under control of the Ordo Malleus, but I could be wrong.

(I'm not actually sure how that would work, because the Ordos are not centralized organizations with a real hierarchy. So who would direct them?)

I interpret the Chamber Militants typically as "do your own thing usually, but always on-call to help members of the Ordo you're sworn to." We know the GKs do their own thing a lot, and the Sororitas are also frequently fighting for the Ecclesiarchy, not just Hereticus. The DW books do emphasize how the DW commit operations without Ordo Xenos orders, I just figure if the Ordo needs them, they will always answer.

"It is clear then that wherever possible it is best if the Inquisition can deal with a threat using its own resources, avoiding the dangerous entanglements that may result from involving other agencies and military forces. It is for this reason that the Inquisition maintains its own fighting formations, foremost amongst them being the Kill-teams of the Deathwatch Space Marines and the daemon-hunting Grey Knights."

- Thorian Sourcebook

The Inquisition may not be structured like an ordinary organisation, but it likes to present itself as such (there is only one Inquisitorial Representative to the Senate, for example), and there is a "fluid" hierarchy based on veterancy and contacts that determines who does or doesn't get into trouble for using such resources.

The Sororitas always stood a bit apart in that they were not created as ][-owned troops but rather had this added as a second set of duties with the Convocation of Nephilim. That being said, it is possible that this is currently undergoing a sort of retcon, as any mention of an official connection between the SoB and the Inquisition has vanished from 6E material, including both organisations' codices.

Not that any of this has relevance to this RPG, of course.

Is that "Deathwatch is no longer Ordo Xenos Chamber Militant" a thing? I don't believe it was presented that way in Deathwatch, with the Chamber of Vigilance being headed by an Inquisitor and all. If so, I've completely ignored it for my DW game. The players may not like all the Inquisitors but they know and (generally) respect the chain of command.

They are still the chamber militant. The only difference in the Deathwatch RPG is that the Jericho Watch is more independent of the Inquistion than it's been portrayed as elsewhere; whilst in the Deathwatch graphic novel (and book of the same name), the Deathwatch are essentially stuck taking direct orders (even for stuff they really, really don't want to do), in the Deathwatch RPG, the chamber is portrayed as an oversight body passing broad directives to the Watch-Captains, who will, occasionally, tell them to shove it.

It's just a narrative thing more than anything; a result of the PCs being the Deathwatch; the Inquisition is the big looming shadowy thing directing your actions, but (because you're awesome) you don't have to follow orders as slavishly as , say, a DH acolyte.

And the BoJ Arbites for an Arbites campaign?

Nah, IH Sisters work perfectly for an Ecclesiarchy-themed campaign. Even better, since they include the Novitiate. Same goes for Core Arbites, etc. Besides, BoM, BoJ and I'm sure LW too are still very much focused on the Inquisition, and an inclusion of these characters into a group of Acolytes, rather than stronger support for non-Inquisitorial campaigns.

In my opinion it's really just a different design approach by two different studios, not an intent with a different theme in mind. This also becomes more apparent if you compare various pieces of equipment between all books published under the Black Industries label and FFG.

tl;dr: different people will have different ideas. This goes for writers and game designers just as much as it goes for the gamers.

Just for reference; the Crimson Guard aren't tech-priests. The Secutor (as you mentioned) is an elite advance that makes a tech-priest more efficient at stabbing things. The Crimson Guard is an elite advance for a rank 1 guardsman that makes said guardsman mechanicus-themed.

I still think they are a bit powerful - the lathe-pattern lasweapons they get by default are massively better than anything a 'normal' guardsman gets, but they don't have a specific drawback to compensate.

And yes, they have the cyber-mantle, and can get mechadendrite use. So they can (ultimately) take mechadendrites.

Since Astartes are not really parts of the Imperial structure, it makes sense.

Same for Gray Knights.

Ah, is that different in FFG's version as well?

To be honest, thanks to Ward's input, it shifted for the Grey Knights too; they're still the "Chamber Militant" but have a tendancy to act independantly, because they have special snowflake prescient psykers who tell them "they have to go kill this guy for reasons" which the Inquisiton just shrugs and says 'okay' after the fact.

They are still the chamber militant. The only difference in the Deathwatch RPG is that the Jericho Watch is more independent of the Inquistion than it's been portrayed as elsewhere; whilst in the Deathwatch graphic novel (and book of the same name), the Deathwatch are essentially stuck taking direct orders (even for stuff they really, really don't want to do), in the Deathwatch RPG, the chamber is portrayed as an oversight body passing broad directives to the Watch-Captains, who will, occasionally, tell them to shove it.

This has nothing to do with the Jericho Reach, though - the core rulebook explicitly presents the Deathwatch as a whole in this way.

Let's be honest - the writers just thought this idea would be "more cool" than the original fluff, and judging from the posts in the Deathwatch forum when the game came out, the vocal majority agreed with this decision.

And this is by far not the only "somewhat important" difference between FFG's fluff and GW's. Not really different to a lot of Black Library novels, too, mind you. For better or worse, that's business as usual with this IP.

Just for reference; the Crimson Guard aren't tech-priests.

Wrong quote?

To be honest, thanks to Ward's input, it shifted for the Grey Knights too; they're still the "Chamber Militant" but have a tendancy to act independantly, because they have special snowflake prescient psykers who tell them "they have to go kill this guy for reasons" which the Inquisiton just shrugs and says 'okay' after the fact.

Technically, we don't really know. They might be duty-bound to lodge and forward mission reports.

The relationship between the Grey Knights and the Inquisition is a bit "difficult" in that there is no such thing as a solid official hierarchy within the latter organisation, so there is no single Inquisitor assigned as a permanent leader that the GKs might even be able to ask for permission. Thus, they have to act somewhat independently. What is important is that they stand ready to place themselves under the authority of any Inquisitor who is in need of their services the moment they are summoned.

Much like with the Deathwatch.

I don't think this has ever been different, but of course that's also just because this is how I interpreted the Codex fluff. At times it is easy to read different things into the little bits and details, specifically because the material is often written somewhat unspecific, leaving room for players to come up with their own ideas.

Ah, is that different in FFG's version as well?

There is no FFG "version" of the fluff. There is simply the fluff. Everything goes through GW, everything gets approved by GW, and GW says everything counts.

BYE

Right. FFG's fluff IS the 40K fluff.

So saying (not pointing out anybody in particular, this is just an example) that Astartes bolters doing more damage than other bolters contradicts the fluff is nonsensical. It IS the fluff that Astartes bolters do more damage (naturally, since they're bigger).

Everything goes through GW, everything gets approved by GW, and GW says everything counts.

Hence the need to differentiate between the different versions of the fluff.

To pick up on bogi_khaosa's example - Astartes bolters cannot do "more damage" if they simultaneously do the same damage (remember, everything counts). You are allowed to cherrypick your preferred interpretation, but you have to choose. And multiple choices = multiple versions.

So, yes. There is Codex fluff, there is FFG fluff, and there are a lot more different variants of the fluff due to a lot of Black Library novel authors like Mr. Abnett, Mr. Goto, etc.

"Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."

- Gav Thorpe

Of course, if you want, I can also refer to it as "FFG's reality", but I really think that would be nitpicking.