I'm working on a brawler build and trying to figure out damage potential. I can only find that a brawl or Melee attack is an average difficulty check. Not an opposed check.

On page 24-25 of the Core Rulebook it gives examples of opposed checks and competitive checks, using drinking and arm wrestling as examples.

Core Rulebook : Page 120
Brawl is used in unarmed combat. The difficulty of the brawl check is average.

So would I use a difficulty check against an opponent who is not brawling back but then an opposed check with an opponent who is brawling back (ie: actively engaged in the brawl)?

Thanks for the help!

Nope, just the average difficulty for melee and brawl.

Brawl and Melee are just like Ranged weapons in EotE in that you take "shots" back and forth delivering damage to each other. I understand the confusion that such would be a Competitive check, but it is not. There has been a long debate through two versions of FFG's Narrative system regarding this, but trust us in play you should not try house-ruling it otherwise.

It might be best to think of Brawling as NOT wrestling. It's punching, kicking, trying to deliver damage, NOT trying to pin a person to the ground.

Let that sink in then consider below.

If a player of mine tried to pin someone to the ground and hold him there, I might consider using Brawn and a Compeititve check. The character is not trying to wound someone, just control them, so for me at least that equates to the arm wrestling example in the Core book. I suppose you could argue it should be a Competitive Brawl (brawn) check if two persons are "wrestling" with both attempting to pin the other to the ground, wall, etc. Note: EotE considers what I just described to be outside the rules on page 211 in a sidebar. The RAW would prefer that the "wounds" of strain damage caused by a normal Brawl attack to narratively be considered a, "grapple".

Jason punches a Tusken Raider. Use Brawl (brawn) versus 2 difficulty.

Instead of trying to punch or kick the Tusken, Jason decides to jump on him and pin him to the ground. Competitive Brawl (brawn) or perhaps just Compeitive Brawn.

If you think the second example is more effective, consider that even if successful, what is Jason going to do next without some added help arriving soon? Knocking out the Tusken Raider with a few punches may have been the smarter thing to do.

Others' opinions may vary.

Indeed. Personally, the idea that it's an apposed check would nerf brawl into obscurity. Absolutely no one would use it when it becomes clear that either ranged and melee are both much more playable attacks. Afterall, no one would want to use a skill where you do less damage and are less likely to do it. Problem with apposed skill checks is that combat can be immensely drawn out if the personal defences are too high.

That being said, the person's resistance to the brawl check is pretty much in their brawn. If they are an hardy, well built individual, then they can partly and struggle out of hits with more ease. A better condictioned body can take punishment more readily as a professional fighters body can move more dynamically and reduce the damage he takes by moving with the blows.

Though brawling combat is still very dynamic if you describe advantages as potencial grapple checks, swinging punches and occationally improvised attack checks "That as you twist his arm back and hold him in a submission hold, you hear him scream as he taps on the ground with his free hand, needless to say he takes 2 strain, and as a minon he passes out. There will be no round two for him!" or "You grab him by his head and slam him against the table, inflicting serious concussion in the form of a setback dice, and the amusement from a nearby drunkard."

The only time I would recommend using a brawl check, is that if you are trying to move a person into a clearly disadvantous postion, such as chucking them from a ledge. Though thats more for the PC's benifit rather then the minon since we have had one occation where a character had died from being chucked from a two story building. Though for NPC's, the laws of cool override that and it's best just do do an average check.

I'm working on a brawler build and trying to figure out damage potential. I can only find that a brawl or Melee attack is an average difficulty check. Not an opposed check.

On page 24-25 of the Core Rulebook it gives examples of opposed checks and competitive checks, using drinking and arm wrestling as examples.

Core Rulebook : Page 120

Brawl is used in unarmed combat. The difficulty of the brawl check is average.

So would I use a difficulty check against an opponent who is not brawling back but then an opposed check with an opponent who is brawling back (ie: actively engaged in the brawl)?

Thanks for the help!

There is an opposed Athletics check with the Pin talent in the Archaeologist specialization in Enter The Unknown supp.

It might be best to think of Brawling as NOT wrestling. It's punching, kicking, trying to deliver damage, NOT trying to pin a person to the ground.

Others' opinions may vary.

Indeed, my opinion on this point does vary. Brawl includes both striking and grappling. Using Brawl to wrestle someone into submission (exceeding ST) or unconsciousness (exceeding WT) is a perfectly acceptable use of the skill. Whether you want to describe what you're doing as punching them or twisting on their limbs in a grapple, Brawl covers both just as well.

I had the same question - I didn't see this post, so I posted mine here: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/97502-it-should-be-harder-to-punch-high-agility-opponent/

There is an opposed Athletics check with the Pin talent in the Archaeologist specialization in Enter The Unknown supp.

Good to know, thanks. That is the problem with house rules you never know when something is going to over-ride it. I'm not sure if I like it as a Talent though. Shouldn't everyone be able to at least try to "pin" someone without requiring a Talent? The Talent should just make you better at it. Makes me recall d20 Modern which required you to have some sort of talent to be able to flip your weapon to full-auto and shoot it.

Certainly you should be able to at least try to pin someone without requiring a talent. This is a "Yes, but" system and every players character can try almost anything they want.

The difference is though, everything comes with an inherent difficulty and not everyone is a master of all skills.

I would think using either some advantage, a triumph or a destiny point cold be used to pin an enemy.

Certainly you should be able to at least try to pin someone without requiring a talent. This is a "Yes, but" system and every players character can try almost anything they want.

The difference is though, everything comes with an inherent difficulty and not everyone is a master of all skills.

That's what I meant. Those with the "Pin Talent" should be better at it, but everyone should be able to at least attempt it even if they will probably fail.

You could spend advantage or triumph to accomplish some of these outcomes. Page 206 3 advantage line gives some ideas.

You could spend advantage or triumph to accomplish some of these outcomes. Page 206 3 advantage line gives some ideas.

Pinning with a Triumph or sufficient Advantages is absolutely allowed. It's called disable, but same idea. It would be sufficient time to have other characters slap binders on an opponent and take them alive I would think. Although it doesn't specifically call for it as a result of an opposed Athletics check. Given that's what the new talent calls for it would seem reasonable to allow it for all players though for everyone with the Triumph/Advantage route, with the Pin talent clearly providing a far better result potential.