As I have now played a few games, initiative seems to me to be a blessing or curse depending on the situation or list -- in some cases an advantage and in others a disadvantage.

Is there a reason that X-wing wouldn't benefit from changing initiative turn-to-turn, either randomly, switching off, or by something like current point total (rather than starting)?

Initiative is a real benefit when you have the same PS on both sides and you have ships you can move into blocking positions. When you only have a couple of ships on both sides it doesn't really matter. But those first 3 rounds with 4+ ships on both sides... there is a reason why experienced players sacrifice a point or two for initiative.

Would the game benefit? No. Would a Rebel player benefit? Yes.

You wouldn't happen to be a Rebel player would you?

I don't think it would benefit, no. Part of the strategy of the game is making initiative work for you - whether you have it or the other guy does. I think switching it back and forth every turn would make the game a lot more random and a bit less strategic, as your plans could be randomly thrown on their head when initiative flip-flops. I think the game has plenty of randomness as it is, with the dice.

Would the game benefit? No. Would a Rebel player benefit? Yes.

You wouldn't happen to be a Rebel player would you?

Not really tied to one side, and if I was and thought Rebels were disadvantaged by it, I'd think that's a good thing as I think that the Rebels overall currently have an advantage.

I've seen compelling reasons initiative is both a blessing and a curse and it just seemed to me that if it's either, forcing one player to have it the whole game or keeping it from one player who built a list to take advantage of it just seems like a very significant swing in a contest for an entire game.

I don't think it would benefit, no. Part of the strategy of the game is making initiative work for you - whether you have it or the other guy does. I think switching it back and forth every turn would make the game a lot more random and a bit less strategic, as your plans could be randomly thrown on their head when initiative flip-flops. I think the game has plenty of randomness as it is, with the dice.

Good points, but that idea (building a list around initiative) is based on the current rule that one team has initiative the entire game. I get that adding another role or changing initiative does make the game more cumbersome and would be a key reason for not doing it, but as I mention above, it seems like the one significant rule that can be and advantage or disadvantage for an entire game based on whether you want it (or not).

I don't understand the comments about perceived disadvantages with initiative. Maybe it is because I have not yet had initiative, as a newer player just learning with a simple Rebel list. However, I have played enough games against folks that had initiative to see where it benefits them.

When it comes to same pilot skill (PS) ships, initiative seems to provide benefits both for movement and combat. At the same PS, initiative gives you the advantage of positioning your ships before the opponents of the same PS. So you can occupy an area and gain positional advantage. And the obvious advantages in combat don't need examination here.

Initiative gains you the advantage of placing the first obstacle.

The only area where I feel initiative is an issue is in deployment where your opponent can react to your deployment.

I don't understand the comments about perceived disadvantages with initiative. Maybe it is because I have not yet had initiative, as a newer player just learning with a simple Rebel list. However, I have played enough games against folks that had initiative to see where it benefits them.

When it comes to same pilot skill (PS) ships, initiative seems to provide benefits both for movement and combat. At the same PS, initiative gives you the advantage of positioning your ships before the opponents of the same PS. So you can occupy an area and gain positional advantage. And the obvious advantages in combat don't need examination here.

Initiative gains you the advantage of placing the first obstacle.

The only area where I feel initiative is an issue is in deployment where your opponent can react to your deployment.

One of the reasons I asked is I'm also new to the game and wanted to know if a more balanced system would even be worth the hassle (IE if initiative can decide games).

I'll just add that there are advantages to going 2nd when you have the same PS. You're better able to evaluate your choice of action (making a move like boost or barrel roll into better position, knowing whether or not an evade is a better choice than focus because of which arcs you're in). You also can trail your opponent better and realize that the space he is in will be vacated before your pilot with the same PS moves.

Combat is actually less of an advantage/disadvantage because of the simultaneous combat rule. Ships at the same PS go even when destroyed.

Combat is actually less of an advantage/disadvantage because of the simultaneous combat rule. Ships at the same PS go even when destroyed.

There is still a slight advantage for attacking first with the same pilot skill: critical hits. If you attack first you can potentially deal a crippling critical hit to the other ship such as taking out a secondary weapon they wanted to use or even reducing them to 0 attack dice.

I had that happen in a recent game. Bunch of ps2 ships, I had initiative. Landed the crit that causes you to roll 0 on your net attack on one of his ships, denying it a kill shot.

Shooting first can also make a big difference in dealing with support ships. The biggest example is Howlrunner or Jonus. If you have initiative at the same PS as the swarmy ships that are relying on those support abilities, and you destroy them before your opponent fires, they're gone - simultaneous fire only applies to the same PS.

Especially in a swarm vs. swarm, using your PS1 pilots to kill your opponent's Howlrunner before their PS1 pilots get to shoot is huge. Being able to move first in order to block and achieve action denial is also huge.

People often bash initiative as being bad, but it's really good in some ways and bad in others. One's view on initiative (and whether it needs to be changed) usually depends on which piece you feel is more important. If you focus on actions and known information, you hate having initiative. If you focus on blocking, action denial, and the limited-but-still-useful combat advantages, you like it. Anything that split seems like a good argument that it's fine.

It can also vary wildly, game to game, depending on the match-up. I've had games where I absolutely hoped to win initiative, and games where I very much hoped he got stuck with it. It can depend a lot on what you're lining up against.

It can also vary wildly, game to game, depending on the match-up. I've had games where I absolutely hoped to win initiative, and games where I very much hoped he got stuck with it. It can depend a lot on what you're lining up against.

Agreed. It seems like a lot of the examples here would highlight that initiative can cause at least a slight imbalance over a full game when both squads would either be able to take advantage of it (or the opposite). and it is set for the whole game. Whether it's big enough that changing initiative throughout the game would be worth it, that's another thing.

It can also vary wildly, game to game, depending on the match-up. I've had games where I absolutely hoped to win initiative, and games where I very much hoped he got stuck with it. It can depend a lot on what you're lining up against.

Agreed. It seems like a lot of the examples here would highlight that initiative can cause at least a slight imbalance over a full game when both squads would either be able to take advantage of it (or the opposite). and it is set for the whole game. Whether it's big enough that changing initiative throughout the game would be worth it, that's another thing.

You're not wrong about the potential for it to matter a lot, but I don't think that necessarily means it needs to be changed.

The cases where it can matter that dramatically are limited - the swarm vs. swarm Howlrunner is the best example of it. Knowing those situations exist become a potential weakness in the squad. If you're running a swarm, do you leave out 1 point for an initiative bid? Two? If you're running PtL Interceptors that REALLY want to go last, how much on a PS bid do you make?

Initiative swings aren't a problem with the game - they're part of the strategic decisions you have to consider during squad construction. That's not a bad thing.

It can also vary wildly, game to game, depending on the match-up. I've had games where I absolutely hoped to win initiative, and games where I very much hoped he got stuck with it. It can depend a lot on what you're lining up against.

Agreed. It seems like a lot of the examples here would highlight that initiative can cause at least a slight imbalance over a full game when both squads would either be able to take advantage of it (or the opposite). and it is set for the whole game. Whether it's big enough that changing initiative throughout the game would be worth it, that's another thing.

You're not wrong about the potential for it to matter a lot, but I don't think that necessarily means it needs to be changed.

The cases where it can matter that dramatically are limited - the swarm vs. swarm Howlrunner is the best example of it. Knowing those situations exist become a potential weakness in the squad. If you're running a swarm, do you leave out 1 point for an initiative bid? Two? If you're running PtL Interceptors that REALLY want to go last, how much on a PS bid do you make?

Initiative swings aren't a problem with the game - they're part of the strategic decisions you have to consider during squad construction. That's not a bad thing.

Well, it's been an interesting discussion, and I don't necessarily think it's game breaking or needs changing. (I've had games where initiative only matters one one or two pilots).

I will say that while I understand your point, just because a rule adds strategy doesn't mean it's a good rule. This seems like one of the few rules in X-Wing that, while you can attempt to plan for it, it can still come to a single random die roll that puts a player at an advantage or disadvantage for an entire game.

Shifting the discussion a bit, how many points is initiative worth when it is an advantage? Is it worthwhile at one or two points but becomes less worthwhile after that?

Also random question: Buhallin, are you the same Buhallin from the Old World Football League (Bloodbowl) who played a dwarf team?

I think it's just something you take into account when squad building. I've at least on one or two occasions made 98 point initiative bids...only to come up against another 98 point list, bringing it straight back to chance. What can you do?

Where I think you judge initiative a bit too harshly is your seeming perception that there is a cut and dry upside or downside to having it, which, in your words "puts a player at an advantage or disadvantage for an entire game." I don't think it's that simple or that black and white.

Case in point: I'm playing in a big tournament on Vassal right now, using a highly mobile squad of 4 ps2 B-Wings with Advanced Sensors. My second round opponent was running a squad of 5 ps2 Scimitar TIE Bombers. I very badly wanted to lose initiative in that game, because seeing him move first would give me all kinds of chances to arc dodge and look for unanswered shots. Naturally, I won initiative.

What did I do? Instead of perceiving it as a handicap, I just changed gears. It's not inherently good or bad, it's just an element largely out of your control, and you plan accordingly. Instead of even trying to dodge arcs, I played more aggressively and threw my ships into his path, where my shields and superior firepower would have an advantage. I blocked him every chance I got, denying him actions, which further exacerbated that close range mismatch. Several times I used the fact I shot first to my advantage, landing crits on his gloriously crit-prone 6hp shieldless hulls which lowered his attack value, forced him to attack without rolling any dice, etc.

Now if I had plowed ahead with my original strategy of playing more defensively and hoping to see what he did before I had to move? Yeah - it would have been a crippling disadvantage. And I think it's that inability to change tactics on the fly that does a lot of people in. He was so happy to lose initiative that he actually cheered when I won it. He wasn't cheering a little while later, though, as I started flinging my B-Wings at him with reckless abandon, blocking him constantly, stealing his actions from him, and turning his perceived advantage into a massive headache.

I think it's just something you take into account when squad building. I've at least on one or two occasions made 98 point initiative bids...only to come up against another 98 point list, bringing it straight back to chance. What can you do?

Where I think you judge initiative a bit too harshly is your seeming perception that there is a cut and dry upside or downside to having it, which, in your words "puts a player at an advantage or disadvantage for an entire game." I don't think it's that simple or that black and white.

Case in point: I'm playing in a big tournament on Vassal right now, using a highly mobile squad of 4 ps2 B-Wings with Advanced Sensors. My second round opponent was running a squad of 5 ps2 Scimitar TIE Bombers. I very badly wanted to lose initiative in that game, because seeing him move first would give me all kinds of chances to arc dodge and look for unanswered shots. Naturally, I won initiative.

What did I do? Instead of perceiving it as a handicap, I just changed gears. It's not inherently good or bad, it's just an element largely out of your control, and you plan accordingly. Instead of even trying to dodge arcs, I played more aggressively and threw my ships into his path, where my shields and superior firepower would have an advantage. I blocked him every chance I got, denying him actions, which further exacerbated that close range mismatch. Several times I used the fact I shot first to my advantage, landing crits on his gloriously crit-prone 6hp shieldless hulls which lowered his attack value, forced him to attack without rolling any dice, etc.

Now if I had plowed ahead with my original strategy of playing more defensively and hoping to see what he did before I had to move? Yeah - it would have been a crippling disadvantage. And I think it's that inability to change tactics on the fly that does a lot of people in. He was so happy to lose initiative that he actually cheered when I won it. He wasn't cheering a little while later, though, as I started flinging my B-Wings at him with reckless abandon, blocking him constantly, stealing his actions from him, and turning his perceived advantage into a massive headache.

Great points about shifting tactics due to having initiative or not, and that's the kind of thing I was looking for when asking.

I've couched initiative as black and white because there's a lot of feedback that points to people a)putting effort into building it in and b) clear advantages and disadvantages people have brought up. Your example is certainly unique in that.

Your first paragraph is interesting also, though, in that you tried to build it into your squad but were unable to use it. There's really nothing else like that you can build into your list that can be negated from turn one is there? There are things that can be countered or avoided, sure, but that usually requires good play by your opponent.

The 98 point squad isn't the squad I'm currently playing, just to be clear. I just vividly remember one time I was meeting up for a friendly game over at FFG, rolled out a 98 point squad designed to win initiative...and my buddy had built his squad to 98 points, completely randomly, as well.

That's why in general, I think people overstate the effect of initiative, and the value of winning or losing it. Are there times where the chance of winning initiative is greater than the benefit of cramming in that last point or two? Sure. That's the main reason that particular squad landed at 98 points. I was using three B-Wings, came up 2 points short, and had nowhere to spend those points that was especially useful. They were already ps4, so I couldn't blow points there. They can't mount astromechs, so it's not like I could throw on a couple of R2s. They already all had secondary weapons... So it became a question of "do I twist this squad inside out trying to reach 100, or do I figure it's not going to be any more effective at 100 than it is at 98, and if winning initiative helps me out any, terrific?"

In that case, ironically, it didn't even manage to win me initiative, but to me that just further goes to show that dedicated initiative bids are usually more trouble than they're worth.

I think there are two very important things to remember when it comes to initiative.

1. People often place too much emphasis on the advantage or disadvantage to having/not having it, and

2. People who design their squad to win (or hope to lose) initiative often don't think to dedicate equal time to practicing what happens when that bid to win/lose initiative fails .

I think it's just something you take into account when squad building. I've at least on one or two occasions made 98 point initiative bids...only to come up against another 98 point list, bringing it straight back to chance. What can you do?

Where I think you judge initiative a bit too harshly is your seeming perception that there is a cut and dry upside or downside to having it, which, in your words "puts a player at an advantage or disadvantage for an entire game." I don't think it's that simple or that black and white.

Case in point: I'm playing in a big tournament on Vassal right now, using a highly mobile squad of 4 ps2 B-Wings with Advanced Sensors. My second round opponent was running a squad of 5 ps2 Scimitar TIE Bombers. I very badly wanted to lose initiative in that game, because seeing him move first would give me all kinds of chances to arc dodge and look for unanswered shots. Naturally, I won initiative.

What did I do? Instead of perceiving it as a handicap, I just changed gears. It's not inherently good or bad, it's just an element largely out of your control, and you plan accordingly. Instead of even trying to dodge arcs, I played more aggressively and threw my ships into his path, where my shields and superior firepower would have an advantage. I blocked him every chance I got, denying him actions, which further exacerbated that close range mismatch. Several times I used the fact I shot first to my advantage, landing crits on his gloriously crit-prone 6hp shieldless hulls which lowered his attack value, forced him to attack without rolling any dice, etc.

Now if I had plowed ahead with my original strategy of playing more defensively and hoping to see what he did before I had to move? Yeah - it would have been a crippling disadvantage. And I think it's that inability to change tactics on the fly that does a lot of people in. He was so happy to lose initiative that he actually cheered when I won it. He wasn't cheering a little while later, though, as I started flinging my B-Wings at him with reckless abandon, blocking him constantly, stealing his actions from him, and turning his perceived advantage into a massive headache.

CW: Excellent demo of what having/losing Init can have and how/why to change strategy based on if you have Init or not.

I totally agree with your points.

To further elaborate or specify a key point in cases of equal PS: Especially for a ship/list with TL ability, not having the Init can be of huge value in the first combat round since a player without Init will (with skillful maneuvering) be the only one that can take TL actions and furthermore is also able to evaluate the "end of movement" situation and choose the most advantageous Action accordingly.

(Edit: reading through your post it dawns on me that my post is basically just what you wrote except it describes why you wanted to loose the Init. Please bear with me )

I ain't mad.

To me it's kind of like playing football outside or whatever. Obviously you might prefer playing in cool, sunny weather with no wind to mess with throws or kicks. Not too hot, not too cold (although some teams used to playing in the cold go in with a psychological edge over teams from warmer climes). No rain mucking everything up and making the ball slick.

If you're playing in an outdoor stadium, though, you're at the whims of the weather, and have to plan accordingly. If your entire playbook consists of passing deep, when the wind is blowing the ball off course, and the rain is making it harder for your receivers to grip it, you're in for a bad day. If you have the ability to start handing the ball off securely and running it downfield, you've got a shot.

There are matches where I hope I win initiative. There are matches where I'd prefer to lose it. And there are matches where I'm at ps2 and all of his ships are higher or lower, and setting up is the only time where ps is going to make the least bit of difference to the outcome of the game. To me, it's just a thing that's there, and sometimes I'd like it to go one way or the other, and sometimes it is going to play a bigger role in how the game plays out, but that's all the more reason not to give it too much weight as a force for good or evil. The less power you give it, the easier it is to overcome when it doesn't go your way.

There's no denying that some games, when ps matches up on a bunch of the ships, that it's going to have an effect. And there's no denying that in some of those games, it's going to have an effect where your initial reaction is going to be "sweet" or "aw, dang." I've seen people lose games seemingly from the start, though, when initiative didn't go their way and their entire strategy fell apart on them, and that's totally self-inflicted.

There's always a way to exploit initiative in your favor. It might not be the ideal option, but sometimes it's the only option: see what you wind up with, know what you're going to do with or without initiative, and just make sure you have that Plan B ready to roll with if things don't go your way. There's no excuse for not being flexible enough to adjust your tactics regardless of how initiative goes, because you can build a 90 point squad, and eventually you're going to play some other idiot who ALSO thought dropping a ten point initiative build was a genius idea.

And I think it's that inability to change tactics on the fly that does a lot of people in.

Great story and very well put. In a way you could sum it up with The plan never survives first contact with the enemy.

If you can't change your plan to deal with the current situation you'll be at a big disadvantage, a much bigger one than people seem to think Init causes.

This ^ ^ ^

You're going to be much better off if you know your squad, its ins and outs, and how to use it to best effect in any given situation...than you are building it on the assumption it'll win initiative, or face a particular opposing squad, or whatever. Be ready for anything and you'll never get caught off guard.

And I think it's that inability to change tactics on the fly that does a lot of people in.

Great story and very well put. In a way you could sum it up with The plan never survives first contact with the enemy.

If you can't change your plan to deal with the current situation you'll be at a big disadvantage, a much bigger one than people seem to think Init causes.

Heh this made me think "you should always assume your plan won't survive first contact with the enemy; never assume the enemy won't survive first contact with your plan."

while you can attempt to plan for it, it can still come to a single random die roll that puts a player at an advantage or disadvantage for an entire game.

..

Also random question: Buhallin, are you the same Buhallin from the Old World Football League (Bloodbowl) who played a dwarf team?

Actually, you can completely plan for it. Different lists are going to be sensitive to initiative to different degrees. Just like calculating amount of available dice, or crunchiness of ships, or anything else, initiative issues are something you have to factor into the things you consider when building a squad.

Initiative really isn't just about initiative - it's about moving first or last. Initiative only matters when the PS comes into play. When squad building you can influence the move order. You move first reliably by having higher PS pilots - winning the PS bid. You most last reliably by taking low PS pilots and shorting your squad points. Yes, the roll can have a big impact to the game - but it's far from completely random. Or, more precisely, if it can affect you that badly and it IS completely random, it's because of choices you made during squad building, and you didn't commit enough to setting the order the way you wanted.

And yes, same Buhallin. <shudder> Crunchiest dwarfs ever...