I've been meaning to post about this before, but I've only found the time now.
There's been some discussions about the game balance effects of various things, from mêlée weapons to requisition. One thing that I haven't seen come up, is the effects of necessary stats. That is, which characteristics does a class need to focus on, in order to fulfill its role well and whether that leaves the different classes balanced.
I believe that it leaves them unbalanced, with the classes that should be able to fight in mêlée getting particularly shafted.
Rolled-for stats alleviate the problem by potentially being equally sh*tty for everyone. In point-build, if you're trying to have even moderately optimized characters, is where the disparity lies, in my opinion.

I'll focus first on the core classes:
Everyone needs some defense i.e. Ag or T, to survive. T only goes so far, while Dodge can be improved on top of Ag, so Ag is clearly the better choice. Similarly, everyone needs WP to stand against fear and, more importantly, pinning. It's also nice to have a decent BS, because most of the time, shooting is how you fight. If you can't have most of these at least on 40, ideally higher, you're gonna have a pretty bad time, as a player, because either you'll die fast, be unable to do anything or just never hit. Ag is the only one where you can compensate by raising a skill, for all the others, you'll need characteristic advances, which are expensive and don't get you as much of a bonus. Aiming and similar bonuses help with the BS, but to use them, you'll want WP, or spend every other turn doing nothing but Aim. Which is no fun.

The Weapon Specialist can focus on BS, Ag and WP (20 points each), leaving 40 points to spend on T, Per, and S (in case carrying limits matter). He can safely ignore WS (most of the time, he wouldn't have a half-decent weapon for mêlée anyway), Int and Fel, assuming he has a squad that includes someone to deal with Int rolls and someone for Fel.
Similar for the Heavy Gunner, though he might want to downgrade Ag, as he can't dodge while bracing his heavy weapon, and he needs S for Bulging Biceps.
The Operator should focus on Ag, Int, and BS, and leave WP, Per and T as his second-rank stats. Assuming he has a vehicle.
The Medic can focus on Int and two out of Ag, BS, Per, T, WP, leaving the others as second rank. Ag being a good choice, because so many skills depend on it, as well as Dodging.

And then we get to the Sergeant.
Given his equipment, the suggestions in Recommended Advances and the fluff, he should be good in mêlée and in commanding.
That means focus on WS, S and Fel, as well as Int for the tactics and Per, so as not to lead his men into a trap. Even if we relegate S to second rank, maxing only WS and Fel, that leaves him with 60 points, three characteristics to support his role and none of the essentials. He'll be constantly suppressed, unable to hit the broad side of a barn and probably very vulnerable.
Of course, an optimized build thinks about this first, and then decides that a Sergeant can't possibly do everything he could do at once, and drop either the mêlée or the commanding bit, in order to gain some effectiveness. A commanding sergeant will then focus on Fel and Int, having WP, Ag and BS as second rank, while a mêlée Sergeant will focus on WS and S, leaving WP, T and Ag for second rank.

I'll get to the Support Specialists in a bit.

Am I missing something here? Is the sergeant just really shafted in terms of fulfilling his role and living up to fluff?
I admit, I don't really have a solution to this, but rolling S into WS for the purposes of melee damage would help a little bit.
I keep wanting to eliminate WS and BS as characteristics and turning them into skills, but that would just further overemphasize Ag, especially with the flat probabilities of the d100 system.

As for the support specialists:

Both the Commissar and the Priest are in a similar situation as the Sergeant. However, for the Commissar it is mitigated because he doesn't really do tactics and because he can Intimidate as much as Command. The Priest, in addition, has a flamer, and therefore not much use for BS, although he definitely still needs Fel. The commissar is a bit worse off, because he does still need BS, much like everyone else.

The Ogryn... Well, he's got it easy. BS, WS, T, and WP, plus Per or Fel, to taste. He can hit, he can shoot, he's tough, he's dumb. WP so that he can make use of that.

The Ratling, similar, BS, Ag, Per, with WP and Fel or T.
Both of the Abhumans have very clear and narrow roles, making it easier for them to focus on a few stats.

The Psyker I can't really get into, as I haven't read up on the powers and using them at all. Don't know why, just not very interested. I've heard though that WP is the one stat that rules. Add Ag and BS, and you'll be always effective.

The Stormtrooper seems like he could get by with the same choices as the Weapon Specialist, perhaps adding some more focus on Toughness.

The Techpriest could go for the same stuff as the medic, making his Omnissian Axe more ceremonial than anything, but leaving him very effective in most situations. Or he could take Int, WS and S, taking BS and Ag in second rank, and still be useful from time to time.



Okay, after this exercise I've come to realize that the only one who gets really shafted is the Sergeant, unless you're very careful at character creation. Both the commissar and the priest have more narrow focuses, helping them avoid being spread too thin.
And that's really the main lesson here, I think. You need to choose a more-or-less narrow role, and work within that. Trying to be decent at many things just makes you suck at all of them and is not much fun. Most classes provide an obvious role, and some provide two. The sergeant however, screams for trying to do several things, by the way he's presented in the fluff. To be effective, he needs to focus on one thing though, and not spread himself out. (The book suggests melee combat, which is likely a really dumb tactic for the rest of the squad.)

60 points?

I think the Sarge is not supposed to be a specialist, but to be all all-rounder.

Well, a couple of quick comments:

1) The Sergeant isn't supposed to be a melee monster. He's supposed to be a party booster. And he does that very well. If that's not the role you like, don't play sergeant. His non-characteristic aptitudes are Leadership (party boost) and Defence (staying alive to pull the party through).

2) If there is a melee career, it's the weapon specialist. He just isn't too awesomly good at it, due to not having Offence aptitude. Go Brawler for the Offence aptitude, and get crushing blow. Not getting a chain sword is a minor niggle, given that it has Average availability.

3) Why does there need to be a melee strong career? By having guardsman be questionable at best in melee, they are staying close to the source material, in that every army out there except the Tau are better at close combat than the guard. Melee is a choice, you're not born with it.

@bogi_khaosa
60 points to spend on the rest; having used 40.

Yeah, but as it turns out, all-rounder really doesn't work.

@Tenebrae
1)
He doesn't do the party booster all that well, mostly because his orders have a tendency not to be followed and his main buff (Inspire) is a matter of interpretation to even actually work. However, being party booster is precisely what I wanted and I'm now disappointed because I'm not all that awesome at that, and bad at everything else.

2)
I'd disagree. The melee specialist in my view would be the commissar, but in this case I neglected the Weapon Specialist focusing on melee, because by focusing on range, you can focus on one characteristic (BS) instead of two (WS and S).

3)
That's true, as far as it goes. However, while I agree that melee doesn't need to be a good choice, it creates a trap for the unwary (like myself) where you will always lag behind in the main areas, because you tried to 'not suck' in melee. Since the game suggests that Sergeants, Commissars and Priest should go into melee, I think it's even worse than just being a wrong choice.
I think what annoys me about this most, is the fact that you can't simply 'not suck' at something in this game. It's a lot of effort to just get to that level of skill. To me, that feels like low-level D&D far too often, where two guys stand there for hours and don't hit each other. (At least pre-4E. Don't know about 4E.) If a starting character wants to 'not suck' at something he needs to focus on it almost exclusively. I can't, in the middle of a campaign, realize "****, I need to be better at spotting the enemy!" and spend some XP to get to 'not suck' levels. I can get my Awareness from 10 to maybe 40, iff I spend a whole lot of XP. I still have a less than 50% chance to notice stuff, and that's if I raised my Per to 30 at the start. 40% is lower-end of 'not suck', but mostly because it's not something I do every turn.

With my basic statline, which tried to 'not suck' at everything the sergeant's supposed to be able to do, I'll simply never be a meaningful contribution in combat, barring luck. Maybe, if I get Command to +30, will it get better, but I'll still be doing the same exact thing I'm doing now, only instead of failing most of the time, I only fail 25% of the time.

Oh, points allocation. I almost never use that, and on the few occasions I have I never made a character with a near-maximum stat.

EDIT: Awareness is almost always an Opposed Test, so never have a flat check. Moreover in general the 40K RPG system is built around bonusses. +0 is not the default level of a skill except in combat, mostly.

If you have a 40 Awareness and are trying to detect someone with a Stealth of 10 (which is the standard generic Guardsman, I think) you're chance to succeed is not 40% but more like 70%, I think.

Okay, so maybe Awareness wasn't a good example because it's Opposed.

And yeah, modifiers are important. But tell me what modifiers I can get on my WP roll against Pinning? My Command roll for my orders?

Command and Pinning in combat, not so much. :

Nerves of Steel obviously for Pinning.

I dunno, Command 50-60 isn't enough?

Resist: Fear, i think also counts for pinning (though i could be wrong). Home materials in your regimental weapons help. In our game we were given a medal that gives +10 vs pinning. Orders help, inspire gives +10 to a roll which could be vs pinning.

Suppressive fire is supposed to be nasty. It gets you killed because it allows the enemy to close in. I can't say i'd be satisfied it if were simple to defeat.

1)

He doesn't do the party booster all that well, mostly because his orders have a tendency not to be followed and his main buff (Inspire) is a matter of interpretation to even actually work. However, being party booster is precisely what I wanted and I'm now disappointed because I'm not all that awesome at that, and bad at everything else.

If you mean Get Them - which is an excellent order, it's +0, menaing not that hard if you focus on Command a bit.

With more XPs, you can grant effective invulnerability to fear and pinning to comrades, which is rather nice.

And since you'll want to increase you command anyway, I can recommend raking a look at the Master of Ordnance when that time comes.

2)

I'd disagree. The melee specialist in my view would be the commissar, but in this case I neglected the Weapon Specialist focusing on melee, because by focusing on range, you can focus on one characteristic (BS) instead of two (WS and S).

Also, if you want a true melee career, there's the Brawler advanced career.

It's ... not to my taste, but it's there.

3)

That's true, as far as it goes. However, while I agree that melee doesn't need to be a good choice, it creates a trap for the unwary (like myself) where you will always lag behind in the main areas, because you tried to 'not suck' in melee. Since the game suggests that Sergeants, Commissars and Priest should go into melee, I think it's even worse than just being a wrong choice.

Her player is looking at boosting Ag and getting things like Sprint and Pretenatural Speed.

Her main problem is actually getting into melee, since most of our combat encounters start at some range.

I think what annoys me about this most, is the fact that you can't simply 'not suck' at something in this game. It's a lot of effort to just get to that level of skill. To me, that feels like low-level D&D far too often, where two guys stand there for hours and don't hit each other. (At least pre-4E. Don't know about 4E.) If a starting character wants to 'not suck' at something he needs to focus on it almost exclusively. I can't, in the middle of a campaign, realize "****, I need to be better at spotting the enemy!" and spend some XP to get to 'not suck' levels. I can get my Awareness from 10 to maybe 40, iff I spend a whole lot of XP. I still have a less than 50% chance to notice stuff, and that's if I raised my Per to 30 at the start. 40% is lower-end of 'not suck', but mostly because it's not something I do every turn.

With my basic statline, which tried to 'not suck' at everything the sergeant's supposed to be able to do, I'll simply never be a meaningful contribution in combat, barring luck. Maybe, if I get Command to +30, will it get better, but I'll still be doing the same exact thing I'm doing now, only instead of failing most of the time, I only fail 25% of the time.

With my basic statline, which tried to 'not suck' at everything the sergeant's supposed to be able to do, I'll simply never be a meaningful contribution in combat, barring luck. Maybe, if I get Command to +30, will it get better, but I'll still be doing the same exact thing I'm doing now, only instead of failing most of the time, I only fail 25% of the time.

Command +30 is only 900 XPs for sergeants, since you have both of the aptitudes.

How much XP does your GM give out after each session?

The Sgt in my group put a 40 in fel, boosted it a couple of times, bought command up to +230, and now got 80 base when making command rolls.

Get them is also used at every round, that +4 is a great help, expecially when the squad is in melee against Orks.

As for obeying orders, generally the player doesn't care what the others do, but you someone goes about throing grenades around while you're fihgitng in an ammo dump, then yeah he'll roll a command test to tell the other player NOT to throw a grenade (or in our case, telling the Ogryn not to intimiatdate everyone from other Regiments they meet)

Or ordering the toher players to do a specific thing rather than his idea -y'know like a real Sgt would do with a soldier when his idea is not good at the current time.

I'm playing a sergeant and spamming "Get them!" on every single round. Although, that +4 isn't that much to an Autocannon or an Melta, but for the standard lasgun it might make the difference wether the shot gets through the unnatural toughness of an ork. Particularly after they run out of hitpoints and become tougher to kill.

It does feel like my sergeant is trying to spread his Exp too wide as I'm also roleplaying him as a sketchy character who does some black market stuff on the side to get better gear. On the other hand, I'm satisfied with him having less than stellar BS since he is mostly busy giving orders and inspiring the squad unless some enemies get to close combat in which case it's chainsword time. So that's melee, command and deception/charm related skills and talents as priority and others if there is exp left.

Is that stupid or extra stupid? I guess I'll find out soon.

The +4 for Get Them! on a standard lasgun on overcharge makes it into a 1d10+9 attack. That's higher than a heavy bolter!

My stereotypical image often has the Sarge with a chainsword and a laspistol. The gun is less range than his or her subordinates rifles, and I still hold that IG should never actively seek assault, as a practice, so I can see both of his combat skills actually being slightly under par, with his Leadership abilities being the primary focus. Your mileage might vary.

Besides, you don't really need a good BS to use supressive fire

Only War is a low-power game by design, as fits the universe as portrayed in the codexes (not the novels, which I do not believe that the designers pay much attention to and are of a different genre really for the most part),

If you want to play a higher-power game where characters are more movie action heroes and succeed in high-difficulty stuff with regularity, you're going to have to change the rules. At least increase everybody's stats by 10.

If you want to play a higher-power game where characters are more movie action heroes and succeed in high-difficulty stuff with regularity, you're going to have to change the rules. At least increase everybody's stats by 10.

adding a few thousand XPs pretty much does it too though

Yeah that'll work too.

Anyway the point is that the starting characters, through the first few thousand XPs are made to be expendible grunts. They're at Dark Heresy level (lower actually, since they have fewer Fate Points), and we all know that's the bottom of the barrel.

(Actually the low number of Fate Points is probably indicative of what character life expectancy is supposed to be.)

Myrion: Would you mind my asking about the set-up of your regiment?

In particular your doctrines?

I apologize to everyone here, this week (incl last weekend) has turned out far busier than expected, hence me not responding. I will attempt to respond tomorrow or on Friday, but given that my exams start next week, I might not be able to.

I will say that after the last session, which was shortly after I posted here, my opinions have changed slightly. I also thank all of you for your opinions and time.

I apologize to everyone here, this week (incl last weekend) has turned out far busier than expected, hence me not responding. I will attempt to respond tomorrow or on Friday, but given that my exams start next week, I might not be able to.

I will say that after the last session, which was shortly after I posted here, my opinions have changed slightly. I also thank all of you for your opinions and time.