Just chiming in to say that I would love to see an small Imperial sourcebook once the AoR CB is out.

I'm all for expanding options as much as possible.

It's a business decision. Does Fantasy Flight believe that there is enough of a demand for an Imperial game or sourcebook? If the answer is yes, then I'm sure they will consider publishing one. If the answer is no, then I imagine it will be up to creative players and GMs to make it happen, working with the material we've already got.

They could tske all the uncertainty out of figuring out what decision to make by using Kickstarter!

In WHFRP, you can't play skaven, chaos warriors or dark elves.

I have a Skaven book that says otherwise. As well as the Tome of Corruption.

But yes, FFG is painting the Empire as the big Evil.

But if the players complain enough chances are that a source book will be made.

And maybe it's me, but in Legacy the system allowed you to play both. The books gave you details about the backgrounds, gear and characteristics about Republic, Sith, Empire, Rebellion and even YV. You could play what you wanted.

While I haven't been able to get my hands on the AoR beta it seems like a pretty straightforward job to transplant the specializations therein to apply to Imperial characters. An Ace Pilot can just as easily buzz around in a TIE as an X-wing. A stormtrooper with the Commando spec would be a Storm Commando. And so on.

As soon as FaD comes out, I will be re-reading the Legacy series. I think that's going to be my FaD setting. Those comics have a really good mix of the 3 "styles" of Core Rule Books to be released.

It's a business decision. Does Fantasy Flight believe that there is enough of a demand for an Imperial game or sourcebook? If the answer is yes, then I'm sure they will consider publishing one. If the answer is no, then I imagine it will be up to creative players and GMs to make it happen, working with the material we've already got.

They could tske all the uncertainty out of figuring out what decision to make by using Kickstarter!

I feel like it's only a matter of time before FFG does something on Kickstarter, but time will tell. Topic for a different post.

Even if you don't play Imperials having background on Imperials makes the game more immersive. Villians (whether they're good guys or bad guys) are not flat, but they believe in their beliefs, whether they're good ideals or bad ideals. And as people, we get interested in knowing what makes the enemy the enemy.

There are certain times and places where playing Imperial characters would be particularly appealing if you don't want to play a bad guy. For instance the period of mopping up Separatist remnants, fighting pirates and bringing security to the far reaches of the galaxy after the Clone Wars, known as the Reconquest of the Rim in the Essential Guide to Warfare. There's also Thrawn's command in the Unknown Regions, eventually the Empire of the Hand. You'd be making alliances with the locals instead of ruthlessly oppressing them and battling threats to potentially the whole galaxy. There's also the Imperial Remnant under Thrawn's protege Pelleaon and the subsequent Fel Empire, especially when they fought against the Darth Krayt's Empire, but that's far beyond the scope of Age of Rebellion.

Even if you don't play Imperials having background on Imperials makes the game more immersive. Villians (whether they're good guys or bad guys) are not flat, but they believe in their beliefs, whether they're good ideals or bad ideals. And as people, we get interested in knowing what makes the enemy the enemy.

I find that very few people actually realize this. The idea is to portray the Empire not as villains, but as a faction in their own right, full of people with their own motivations and beliefs.

Instead of thinking "Who wants to play the bad guys?" or "RP:s usually focus on the good guys.", think instead of what the Empire and characters from or within the Empire would be if you didn't automatically assume them to be bad guys, villains or evil.

I honestly think that the Empire has a lot to offer, and that Imperial characters in no way need to be "evil" or "villainous". Someone compared it to being Black Crusade for WH40kRP, but I wouldn't like it if it were; Black Crusade depicts characters that are, if not objectively evil, then as close as can be in the context of it's own universe. The Empire and Imperial (or similar) characters in Star Wars, however, is just as much Biggs Darklighter and Mara Jade as it is Wilhuff Tarkin and Jerec.

I always find it odd when people say " FFG is making the Imperial's out to be the bad guy ". I don't really think its their decision, is it? They have to go, at least roughly, on whats canon in the Star Wars Universe. Compared to the movies, books, games and etc etc, I would have to say that FFG is doing the exact opposite. They're leaving the choice pretty much up to the GM.

I always find it odd when people say " FFG is making the Imperial's out to be the bad guy ". I don't really think its their decision, is it? They have to go, at least roughly, on whats canon in the Star Wars Universe. Compared to the movies, books, games and etc etc, I would have to say that FFG is doing the exact opposite. They're leaving the choice pretty much up to the GM.

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

Making a whole line "objectively" "good", disqualifies all characters remotely resembling those that were "good guys" that became "bad guys" (Anakin Skywalker, Anyone that ever ended up betrating the Rebels, etc), as well as all those that were "bad guys" that became "good guys" (Mara Jade, etc), along with all those that remained firmly entrenched amongst the "bad guys", whether they did so because they were assholes or because they had a deep sense of misguided idealism.

They need to get a good group of people that don't mind playing devil's advocate and genuinely defend the Empire and it's actions from the PoV that they are good people, or at the very least a bad organization full of good people - just like practically any "bad" organization ever.

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Well, at a high meta-level, if you think of Star Wars as just a large budget, highly advanced Republic Serial, then white hat cowboys and mustache twirling villains work. One dimensional bad guys, your Ming the Merciless and Fu-Man Chus of the world - fit just fine. However George only has 12 or so hours to fill - he has to speak in shorthand and that's all his story demands.

The gaming table, on the other hand, is a completely different medium. 12 hours is nothing around my table. And if my game stretches on for year (as I sometimes do), I'll need the full gamut of bad guys - the mustache twirlers and the Magnificent Bastards like Rommel and all stops in-between. To limit myself to just Black and White is silly and frankly - boring.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

As an aside, I'm curious, on a personal level, how you square the above statement with your tagline - "Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights. These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable."

Not trying to start a fight, just wanted to point out a bit of an inconsistancy I noticed.

Back to the main thread, it may not be FFG's call. Remember, the Mouse now owns Star Wars, and the orders that say "Rebel-focused" may be being handed down from Lucas' Licensing Team, and ultimately Disney.

I always find it odd when people say " FFG is making the Imperial's out to be the bad guy ". I don't really think its their decision, is it? They have to go, at least roughly, on whats canon in the Star Wars Universe. Compared to the movies, books, games and etc etc, I would have to say that FFG is doing the exact opposite. They're leaving the choice pretty much up to the GM.

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

Making a whole line "objectively" "good", disqualifies all characters remotely resembling those that were "good guys" that became "bad guys" (Anakin Skywalker, Anyone that ever ended up betrating the Rebels, etc), as well as all those that were "bad guys" that became "good guys" (Mara Jade, etc), along with all those that remained firmly entrenched amongst the "bad guys", whether they did so because they were assholes or because they had a deep sense of misguided idealism.

They need to get a good group of people that don't mind playing devil's advocate and genuinely defend the Empire and it's actions from the PoV that they are good people, or at the very least a bad organization full of good people - just like practically any "bad" organization ever.

I agree with the above. Take, for example, the old TIE Fighter video games. Marek Steele is not a "bag guy" per se. The Emporer and his top cronies may be outright evil, but a lot of the rank & file in the Imperial forces are there because of things like honor and duty, who believe the propaganda of "safety and security" because it's actually true on some level. I have no problems with there being objective moral truths, but the people that get caught up in a big universe are generally more diverse than "that side is evil, this side is good." Like I said, it may hold true for Tarkin and Palpatine, and Luke and Leia, but the average stormtrooper, fighter pilot, and even some officers are likely to take the side of the legitimate government against the rebels. And some of the Alliance aren't necessarily all that nice, either.

For those in the US, especially the north, think about our own history. We praise the revolutionaries of the War of Independence and vilify the redcoats. At the same time, we honor the boys in blue from the Civil War and make Johnny Reb the bag guy. It's far more complex for most individuals caught up in something like this than simple good guys and bad guys.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

As an aside, I'm curious, on a personal level, how you square the above statement with your tagline - "Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights. These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable."

Not trying to start a fight, just wanted to point out a bit of an inconsistancy I noticed.

Back to the main thread, it may not be FFG's call. Remember, the Mouse now owns Star Wars, and the orders that say "Rebel-focused" may be being handed down from Lucas' Licensing Team, and ultimately Disney.

I.. I don't see the inconsistency. In a sense, that is me promptly disregarding Matt Ward's bull in much the same way I disregard the oft-rampant idiocy of George Lucas.

And it's of course entirely true what you say on topic; it may just not be FFG's call. And they may even be forbidden to "pass blame" and confirm that this is not their call. But at the very least, they're the only ones in the position to relay positive feedback and articulated requests on the boards or from the fan base.

In the end, I don't think anyone here is arguing in favour for an Empire-centric Core Rulebook, but rather asking themselves why it's not on the table, and discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of the idea. At least I hold no grand illusions pertaining to pushing FFG towards it.

I'd be tremendously happy if it happened, but I don't think I alone will have great enough of an effect on anyone important enough. All I can do is muse and play with the idea and maybe get others interested, show interest, and poke a stick at it.

Even Obi-Wan basically told Anakin only Sith deal in absolutes. Good guys, bad guys. That leaves no room for those that believe in saftey and security, but who object to a militaristic state. The Empire isn't evil per se, it's the people who believe or do the evil. Empire is a government entity, just as the Republic is. Republic of China or the British Empire. While a lot of activists have problems with China, stating that Republic is good, doesn't hold water, while saying that Empire is bad, again doesn't either.

Even so, a Galactic Empire book is needed because it too is part of the Star Wars universe and without it, why not play an all peace and harmony Star Wars game where nothing bad happens.

Without the Empire, the Republic wouldn't exist, and without the Republic, the Empire wouldn't exist. Even the time the Republic existed before the "Empire", you had the Separatists.

I have a Skaven book that says otherwise.

Not in FFG's version you don't.

For those in the US, especially the north, think about our own history. We praise the revolutionaries of the War of Independence and vilify the redcoats. At the same time, we honor the boys in blue from the Civil War and make Johnny Reb the bag guy. It's far more complex for most individuals caught up in something like this than simple good guys and bad guys.

In general trying to compare the Space Opera of Star Wars with real-life situations never really ends well. And leaves us back with ErikB.

But yes, in general, having shades of grey instead of black and white appeals to me as a GM and a storyteller.

But we don't need a sourcebook for that, and I'd be very surprised if we got one.

Even Obi-Wan basically told Anakin only Sith deal in absolutes.

Which is funny as that statement itself is an absolute

Of course, Obi-Wan wasn't exactly in the best frame of mind, having recently become a fugitive from the very government he'd sworn to protect and seeing his pupil-turned-best friend having committed multiple acts of murder (including defenseless children).

Maelora's got a valid point in regards to having "shades of grey," at least for EotE, is perhaps the best approach overall for the system.

Warhammer's not a great example to use as that setting (particularly the 40K one) is one giant crapsack world, where what passes for "good guys" in those settings are generally doomed or revealed to be not all that good. Case in point on the Fantasy front, the Bretonnians. At first glance, they're all "Arthurian knights in gleaming armor" and such, but a deeper look reveals that while they might have some truly awesome and inspiring champions of good, the bulk of them really aren't that great; the Knights of the Grail sourcebook for WFRP2e takes a look at Bretonnian culture, and it's very much got the darker elements of the Middle Ages firmly in place, with a suffering peasantry and a noble class that's more concerned with it's own well-being than that of the people they're supposed to be protecting.

In contrast, Star Wars has generally been about space opera, which primarily operates in black/evil and white/good, with very minor steps into shades of grey; Han is a very light shade of grey, while Boba Fett is a much, much darker shade of grey. Lando starts a darker shade of grey, but then quickly flips to the good guys' side once it becomes clear just how much his "deal" is really costing him; almost similar to Han's line in ANH of "no reward is worth this" is Lando remarking "this deal keeps getting worse all the time," until finally Lando can't stop pretending that "it's not his problem, not his fight" and has to take steps to set things right; much as Yoda suggested to Luke on Dagobah, Lando has to sacrifice what was important to him in order to do what was right.

Now all that said, while there won't be an Imperial-based core rulebook (for starters, a $60 price tag for a niche product that's part of a niche product line in what itself is a niche market is far too risky a business venture, and FFG is a for-profit company), I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of sourcebook going into more detail about the Empire, how it operates, and various NPC types... but generally done so from the point of view of "these are the bad guys, and here's how to use the Empire as adversaries in your game." There might be a chapter that talks about playing the PCs as loyal members of the Empire, but it wouldn't be the main focus of the book, and this sounds more like something for the Age of Rebellion product line, would probably restrict the talk on mechanics to "here's how to use the AoR stuff for Imperial PCs" with maybe some talk of using material from EotE and F&D (if the Force & Destiny core rulebook is either already in print at that point or is presumed to be in print at the time said Imperial sourcebook would be hitting shelves).

Maelora's got a valid point in regards to having "shades of grey," at least for EotE, is perhaps the best approach overall for the system.

Warhammer's not a great example to use as that setting (particularly the 40K one) is one giant crapsack world, where what passes for "good guys" in those settings are generally doomed or revealed to be not all that good. Case in point on the Fantasy front, the Bretonnians. At first glance, they're all "Arthurian knights in gleaming armor" and such, but a deeper look reveals that while they might have some truly awesome and inspiring champions of good, the bulk of them really aren't that great; the Knights of the Grail sourcebook for WFRP2e takes a look at Bretonnian culture, and it's very much got the darker elements of the Middle Ages firmly in place, with a suffering peasantry and a noble class that's more concerned with it's own well-being than that of the people they're supposed to be protecting.

In contrast, Star Wars has generally been about space opera, which primarily operates in black/evil and white/good, with very minor steps into shades of grey; Han is a very light shade of grey, while Boba Fett is a much, much darker shade of grey. Lando starts a darker shade of grey, but then quickly flips to the good guys' side once it becomes clear just how much his "deal" is really costing him; almost similar to Han's line in ANH of "no reward is worth this" is Lando remarking "this deal keeps getting worse all the time," until finally Lando can't stop pretending that "it's not his problem, not his fight" and has to take steps to set things right; much as Yoda suggested to Luke on Dagobah, Lando has to sacrifice what was important to him in order to do what was right.

Now all that said, while there won't be an Imperial-based core rulebook (for starters, a $60 price tag for a niche product that's part of a niche product line in what itself is a niche market is far too risky a business venture, and FFG is a for-profit company), I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of sourcebook going into more detail about the Empire, how it operates, and various NPC types... but generally done so from the point of view of "these are the bad guys, and here's how to use the Empire as adversaries in your game."

Perfectly put, Donovan.

(Though as you say, WH is a poor example, because it's 'all evil, all the time'. There's not much that distinguishes Bretonnians from chaos warriors if they are murdering their own people for fun. GW removed all the 'shades of grey' elements like the non-evil Chaos God and the non-evil Imperial elements like the Sensei).

I think the AoE beginner set makes it pretty clear FFG are not asking us to 'choose a side' and that the default is playing 'good guys' against the evil Empire. But all the mechanics work the same for Imperial PCs, so converting it won't be hard for those who want that.

And as you say, just because the Imperials are the antagonists in the game shouldn't mean that every last one of them is a cartoonish super-villain who eats baby ewoks.

It can be done, and done well. It just takes a little more thought, as most material presents them as "bad guys". I'll doubt we'll see a formal "Imperial" sourcebook, but I bet that both Age of Rebellion and its eventual supplements will have plenty of information tucked away for those who look closely.

If you're interested, Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare is absolutely amazing, with details on the Republic's military throughout it's transition to Empire, as well as some wonderful maps with major shipyards and territorial holdings.

Also, a fan-made TV show, IMPS - The Relentless is showing things from the other side. http://www.impstherelentless.com/tek9.asp It's portrayed as a documentary of Stormtroopers and Navy personnel. Although many of the places and ships are non-canon, it does a great job of showing what the day-to-day life of an Imperial might look like.

I'm running an Imperial-friendly EotE campaign right now, so if you've got any questions, feel free to ask.

There are certain times and places where playing Imperial characters would be particularly appealing if you don't want to play a bad guy. For instance the period of mopping up Separatist remnants, fighting pirates and bringing security to the far reaches of the galaxy after the Clone Wars, known as the Reconquest of the Rim in the Essential Guide to Warfare. There's also Thrawn's command in the Unknown Regions, eventually the Empire of the Hand. You'd be making alliances with the locals instead of ruthlessly oppressing them and battling threats to potentially the whole galaxy. There's also the Imperial Remnant under Thrawn's protege Pelleaon and the subsequent Fel Empire, especially when they fought against the Darth Krayt's Empire, but that's far beyond the scope of Age of Rebellion.

Funny thing is, there's even bits and pieces from the WEG games that are potentially reusable even though they were written pre-prequels, i.e. a not-quite-suppressed early tendency within the Imperial Navy towards counter-piracy* that's been shunted aside and neglected in favor of " the new hotness ", namely the " terror weapon " doctrine of Star Destroyers and the Death Star, thanks to Tarkin's backing and resulting budgetary allocations even before the disbanding of the Senate...

(In the context of the prequels, you could indeed expand " counter-piracy " out to " mopping up Separatist remnants, fighting pirates and bringing security to the far reaches of the galaxy after the Clone Wars, known as the Reconquest of the Rim in the Essential Guide to Warfare".)

If you want to play around with the idea of " good Imps " but want to acknowledge what we have in the original trilogy, this 'split' is one way to go about it. The essential point is that basically Tarkin had the pull and connections to 'steer' the Imperial military in the direction we see in the movies, versus the direction that you described herein... feel free to supplement this with analogies to whatever real-world military pork barrel project of 'questionable' value (except to Kuat Drive Yards' and Sienar Fleet Systems' coffers) you have in mind.

Now all that said, while there won't be an Imperial-based core rulebook (for starters, a $60 price tag for a niche product that's part of a niche product line in what itself is a niche market is far too risky a business venture, and FFG is a for-profit company), I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of sourcebook going into more detail about the Empire, how it operates, and various NPC types..

Exactly. If we get a modern version of the old Imperial Sourcebook - that would be more than enough for someone to take AoR and adapt it to The Bad Guys. An military is an military, regardless of if it's a galaxy spanning dictatorship or a small band of plucky misfits and outlaws. Some basic structure to the Empire and some background and a resourceful GM could go to town.

A specific Imperial sourcebook would be great, but the basic necessary stuff is well-covered by AoR's careers.

That, and you can look to the AoR beta book's Adversaries chapter -- I have no idea how much of those will make it to the final book -- for what several Imperial 'role' types can look like, both stats-wise and gear-wise, not least in part thanks to the " Stormtrooper Specialty Corps " (aka the "- troopers "), as well as non-stormtrooper characters like gunners and vehicle crews.

[...]

... a $60 price tag for a niche product that's part of a niche product line in what itself is a niche market is far too risky ...

I don't see how the Empire can be any more 'niche' than, say, Scoundrels/Criminals (independent of moral leanings). While it would be odd to have a Star Wars game where you *couldn't* play the Republic or the Rebels (or similar), the Star Wars RP is by no means typical in it's split of Core Rulebooks or portrayal of playable characters.

Everything I have come to know of Star Wars and it's popularity has always left me with the enduring impression that the Empire is, if not more popular, then at least equal in popularity to the rebel scum.

A specific Imperial sourcebook would be great, but the basic necessary stuff is well-covered by AoR's careers.

One could just as easily say that all the basic necessary stuff for a Rebel Alliance game could be found in Edge of the Empire. And it'd be true. But having Age of Rebellion makes it so much easier, and feels much more appropriate.

That, and you can look to the AoR beta book's Adversaries chapter -- I have no idea how much of those will make it to the final book -- for what several Imperial 'role' types can look like, both stats-wise and gear-wise, not least in part thanks to the " Stormtrooper Specialty Corps " (aka the "- troopers "), as well as non-stormtrooper characters like gunners and vehicle crews.

An Imperial Operative Career - similar to the Spy in AoR - could also be interesting, with access to, for example, the Assassin and Saboteur Specializations.