i post this question in agot and till today i had received not a final answer!so here it is..

1]both players reveal plots

2]i reveal betrayal and trigger it to choose and reveal art of seduction

3]is aos now effective or just a dead plot?

those players that insist that aos now is a dead plot they state it in the basis that AOS is only effective when both players reveal plots.

i would like ktoms opinion in that matter .thnx

ofc opinion from everyone is welcome also!!

I'd be tempted to say "nonsense!"

When revealed, choose 1 opponent that did not reveal The Art of Seduction as his or her plot. That opponent cannot reveal a new plot card during the plot phase next round.

Maybe the "That did not reveal" is why they think that - but I think that this is primarily to exlude you own or other players AoS being targetted and at the end of the day, each opponent did reveal a plot card, just earlier in the round

Plot card When Revealed effects occur whenever a plot card is reveals (excepting if Forgotten Plans is in play and it is not the plot phase)

I reveal new plot cards all the time - whether with Bran, Maester events or rookeries

It is the flip side which might be causing confusing - you can only trigger the When Revealed once and that is at the point the plot card is revealed (which is not resticted to the plot phase)

i.e. If your opponent had played a plot card with "When Revealed" and you play AoS, then the next round, when your opponent cannot reveal a new plot card, they do not get to replay the When Revealed of their current plot card

The question was "does AoS take effect if it is revealed for the 'When revealed' effect of Betrayal at the Wall?".

thnx a lot khudzlin thats exactly the issue!there are lot of players in agot believe that aos is not effective that way!

I believe the ruling requires AoS to be revealed in the plot framework event to work (not with CS Bran Stark, Bungled Orders or Betrayal at the Wall).

I realised that the question was "does AoS take effect if it is revealed for the 'When revealed' effect of Betrayal at the Wall?"

However, I cannot see what relevence Betrayal has ... You reveal a new plot card. the plot card has a When Revealed effect and those are triggered when you reveal the plot card, regardless of phase or preceding events

I don't think Betrayal is relevent - I assume it is agreed that all other When Reveal effect plot cards chosen as a result of Betrayal work normally, so is there something special about AoS?

The actual question / scenario appears to be whether AoS's When Reveal effect is applicable at any time the plot card is revealed and no other players are revealing plot cards at the same time

It would never enter my head that that could possibly be the case ...

As far as I can tell the only grey area is the specific wording on AoS referring to "that did not reveal" in reference to suitable targets

Preemptive TL/DR:

The "...opponent that did not reveal The Art of Seduction as his or her plot card..." text on AoS is determined based on the current action window , not on the current round or the individual effect that allowed the player to reveal AoS. Betrayal (during standard Plot phase reveal) into AoS would allow AoS to work - where Bran or a Rookery into AoS would not - because there are other players who revealed plots in the same action window.

Detailed Reasoning:

HastAttack, your reasoning would be correct if Art of Seduction said "that did not reveal Art of Seduction as his or her plot card this round ." But the card doesn't have that limitation of timing - which means I could have revealed AoS at any point in the game before now, doesn't it? So what's to stop me from saying "I 'revealed' Art of Seduction 2 rounds ago, so I cannot be chosen for your AoS"?

You don't default to "this round" or "whatever your current plot actually is." Because there is no time-frame on when revealing AoS makes an opponent an ineligible target of your AoS, you have to default to a "right now/this minute" kind of thinking - which limits you to looking within the current action window. So if you have revealed AoS with something like Bran or a Rookery, where you are the only player to reveal a plot, then the plot revealed in that action window by all of your opponents is going to be "null." Since the basis for comparison is "null," you have no legal targets - just like Venomous Blade cannot be used to kill a Summer Reserves (because Summer Reserves has a printed STR of "null").

That's a long way of saying that you were getting the correct answer on agotcards.org - AoS can only target players who have revealed a plot in the same action window .

That said, it sounds like people are misunderstanding the AoS situation and giving you the wrong answer on the "Betrayal into AoS" situation because they are thinking of the ruling as "AoS can only target players who have revealed a plot by the same effect ." That's NOT true, because passive/Response opportunities stay open through the entire action window. Look at it this way: if you reveal Betrayal, then reveal a new plot because of that, how many cards do you get for Golden Tooth Mines? Two, right? Because you revealed 2 different plots in this action window, and revealing the second didn't wipe out the "after you reveal a plot" passive/Response opportunity for the first one.

So, if you reveal Betrayal as your plot for the standard framework action, then move into AoS with its ability (during the prioritized "Step 4: Passives" step of the same action window), all the other players will have revealed a plot during that action window, thus not come up as "null" when trying to compare which plot they revealed to AoS, and be legal targets for your new plot.

So the short answer is that Betrayal actually creates one of the few situations that does allow AoS to work

I don't see much of AoS but it hadn't occured to me that the effect was so time restricted - even less reason to consider using it!

thanks for the clarificaiton Ktom

BTW: What is Preemtive TL/DR ... I can't work it out

I actually really like ktom's explanation to a plot that has confused and still confuses players as to how "loose" it's "when revealed" actually is.

Woohh, so this means that AoS can be played after losing a challenge when bungled orders was in play but CANNOT use its effect.

Im sure i have seen numerous games where this has occurred, is this then incorrect ?

Yes. That is incorrect. There is no legal target opponent when AoS is revealed in the challenge phase through the resolution of Bungled Orders.

(Oh yeah, "Preemptive TL/DR" is supposed to be an early "too long, didn't read." I intended that to mean "this is going to be a long explanation, so let's start with the short answer. You can then ignore the rest if you want.")

Errr, where is this "revealed only counts for the current action window" in the FAQ? I thought we had established the game does have memory for trigger conditions with the whole Sons of the Mist thing, so revealing a late AoS should already be covered by that.

Errr, where is this "revealed only counts for the current action window" in the FAQ?

It doesn't use those exact words, but the explanation of the basic timing structure and when play conditions, targeting requirements, etc. are considered - especially for passive effects/Responses - tells the tale.

I thought we had established the game does have memory for trigger conditions with the whole Sons of the Mist thing, so revealing a late AoS should already be covered by that.

How is what I explained above any different from the whole Son of the Mist thing?

If you play the final card from your hand, you create an "after you play your last card" Response opportunity. Even if you draw another card as part of that effect (ie, Parting Blow), a passive, or another Response first, the "after you play your last card" Response opportunity exists, remains open (until the end of the action window at Step 6, anyway) and I can trigger Son of the Mist's Response within that action window. But if you are First Player in Marshaling, play the last card from your hand, pass to me, then I play Son of the Mist, I can't trigger his Response just because you have no cards in hand. The opportunity for "played your last card" is gone.

How is that different from the explanation that if AoS is revealed "late" with Betrayal in the "reveal plots" action window, the "opponent who did not reveal AoS" opportunity is still good, but if AoS is revealed "late" outside of the "reveal plots" action window, you're too late to capitalize on the "opponent who did not reveal AoS" opportunity?