What I don't want, is a few years from now after we have had a lot of more expansion for a common X-wing battle to be between a few Skipray Blastboats and E-Wings Facing off against TIE Defenders and Gunships. I don't care if the ships exist and show up from time to time, but if they make the ships I grew up with, and love like little else in fiction go away, I would be sad. It would deminsh the game from what I feel is its core.

I can appreciate this stance. But from a gameplay point of view — disregarding the source material for a moment — I hope we don't keep seeing squads dominated by ships from Wave 1 for years and years. The reason to keep playing this game, or any miniature game, beyond the first few months is to have fun with new experiences, which come from new ships, upgrade cards, etc.

I will be so bored with X-Wing if, in 2015, I'm still playing against squads full of X-Wings and TIE Fighters. If those ships are still relevant and being sprinkled in, that's fine. But I want new ships to come out that get used by lots of people. It'll keep the game fresh and fun.

So here's hoping for E-Wings fighting TIE Defenders. That would be interesting to see.

Here's the thing, FFG isn't going to abandon the movie ships. Let's all be honest here, while the EU ships will sell, they will not sell as well as the movie ships. The core movie ships will continue to see updates like the Imperial Aces or Medium Transport w/Escort packs. There is a good sized minority of players who do not want to play with anything except movie ships, which is a perfectly valid opinion. And FFG would be stupid to not try to entice these players to keep buying. As long as it is a mix of products (EU ships and updates/additional options), I think everyone will be happy.

Quite honestly, I think we haven't heard about Wave 4 was because FFG wanted to get some hard data on the HWK. I mean, a fairly obscure ship when compared to other EU ships, and one that really, isn't needed in bulk. Seems like a good ship to get a baseline on your production run for a full EU Wave.

while the EU ships will sell, they will not sell as well as the movie ships.

There's simply no reason to assume that. Not until they come out with a EU fighter that people will want to buy in bulk.

I mean you might lose some sales from people who buy the ships for display purposes and not gameplay, but those are going to be very few.

If wave 4 includes Z-95's and they're something you can comfortably put 6 of in a list, you'll likely see them sell better then the B-Wings or A-Wings did. But the HWK isn't a good yardstick to judge buy, because there's simply not a lot of need for 2 or more of the HWK in most lists.

ok, time for my 2 cents

personally i AM counting down the days till i can get 10 point droid ties to throw on the table.

but also, the groups i play with have had hard times finding use of some of the new ships in 100 points lists and still be competitive. for imperial, once you start spending high points on a ship then then you bleed the rest of your ships, which most do not have sheilds so they get ugly fast in a fight.

so i have come to the conclusion that most of the ships will be better suited for large battles where the ship you spend an arm and a leg on in points is not the only thing your enemy is gunning for to take it away from you.

and to be honest the big games is where i have the most fun. right now im hammering out a list for my first tournament, and it looks like vader, soontir, and another interceptor. throw stealth and push the limit on them and and engine upgrade for vader with dare devil and i am not making it easy for you to hit me.

it seems to be doing well so far.

oh, and Timothy Zahn rocks!!!!!! you must read all his star wars books!!!!

while the EU ships will sell, they will not sell as well as the movie ships.

There's simply no reason to assume that. Not until they come out with a EU fighter that people will want to buy in bulk.

I mean you might lose some sales from people who buy the ships for display purposes and not gameplay, but those are going to be very few.

If wave 4 includes Z-95's and they're something you can comfortably put 6 of in a list, you'll likely see them sell better then the B-Wings or A-Wings did. But the HWK isn't a good yardstick to judge buy, because there's simply not a lot of need for 2 or more of the HWK in most lists.

I have three hawks. I use two together plus the third blaster turret on a Y-wing. It rocks the house.

I have three hawks.

Sure and lots of other people have 2-4 of them. But I'd say unlike the B-Wing or Tie Bomber, most people aren't building lists with 2-4 of them. So they won't sell as well as the B-Wing does, simply because of how they work in the game.

The sales level of the HWK has much more to do with how it works in game, then it does if it's a EU ship or not. I doubt the Shuttle has sold as well as either the YT-1200 or Firespray for much the same reason.

What I don't want, is a few years from now after we have had a lot of more expansion for a common X-wing battle to be between a few Skipray Blastboats and E-Wings Facing off against TIE Defenders and Gunships. I don't care if the ships exist and show up from time to time, but if they make the ships I grew up with, and love like little else in fiction go away, I would be sad. It would deminsh the game from what I feel is its core.

I can appreciate this stance. But from a gameplay point of view — disregarding the source material for a moment — I hope we don't keep seeing squads dominated by ships from Wave 1 for years and years. The reason to keep playing this game, or any miniature game, beyond the first few months is to have fun with new experiences, which come from new ships, upgrade cards, etc.

I will be so bored with X-Wing if, in 2015, I'm still playing against squads full of X-Wings and TIE Fighters. If those ships are still relevant and being sprinkled in, that's fine. But I want new ships to come out that get used by lots of people. It'll keep the game fresh and fun.

So here's hoping for E-Wings fighting TIE Defenders. That would be interesting to see.

You know what I think you are right. Even I and my love of the core of Star Wars will probably get bored if wave 1 ships dominate for too long. I think I might still be good in 2015, but probably not in 2016. I would prefer more pilots and tweeks that still work with my favorite core ships, but I do admit that the game does need to evolve to survive. Maybe we could get a second edition or something. (not that I really have any problems with the rules.)

Even I and my love of the core of Star Wars will probably get bored if wave 1 ships dominate for too long.

Ideally all ships be it wave 1 or wave 15 should be viable and have a place in lists. I'd say that the B-Wing has gone a long ways to dethroning the X-Wing as the go-to ship for Rebel lists. But hasn't made the X-Wing not worth using.

So come 2016 the best possible situation is one where Wave 1 and everything past that is still being used. Otherwise you have power creep and have left the world of a balanced game behind.

Even I and my love of the core of Star Wars will probably get bored if wave 1 ships dominate for too long.

Ideally all ships be it wave 1 or wave 15 should be viable and have a place in lists. I'd say that the B-Wing has gone a long ways to dethroning the X-Wing as the go-to ship for Rebel lists. But hasn't made the X-Wing not worth using.

So come 2016 the best possible situation is one where Wave 1 and everything past that is still being used. Otherwise you have power creep and have left the world of a balanced game behind.

I agree, with only one prevision. Since we don't have a prefect world, I would say that a couple of ships here of there that turn out to be underpowered is a small price to pay to avoid power creep. As new stuff keeps coming out it is going to be increasingly difficult to make everything stay level. If you FFG has to err on the side of ant-power creep I will understand.

I would say that a couple of ships here of there that turn out to be underpowered is a small price to pay to avoid power creep.

Even that can be fixed by simply releasing new cards such as titles or other types that will bring under-preforming cards up to par.

What I don't want to see is them release the E-Wing and have it be so much better then the X, Y, A and B, that no one bothers to play with anything else.

"And in the year 2325 the great Jedi Emperor Constantine did convene a council at the planet of Nicaea, and thereupon laid forth the foundation of that most holy order of devotees, the True Fans. Thus was the official canon forever established, may the force be with it. Amen."

ok, time for my 2 cents

personally i AM counting down the days till i can get 10 point droid ties to throw on the table.

but also, the groups i play with have had hard times finding use of some of the new ships in 100 points lists and still be competitive. for imperial, once you start spending high points on a ship then then you bleed the rest of your ships, which most do not have sheilds so they get ugly fast in a fight.

so i have come to the conclusion that most of the ships will be better suited for large battles where the ship you spend an arm and a leg on in points is not the only thing your enemy is gunning for to take it away from you.

and to be honest the big games is where i have the most fun. right now im hammering out a list for my first tournament, and it looks like vader, soontir, and another interceptor. throw stealth and push the limit on them and and engine upgrade for vader with dare devil and i am not making it easy for you to hit me.

it seems to be doing well so far.

I ran this list tonight in a 3 way, it was quite fun, had both sides gunning for me almost exclusively after about turn 3, and still it came down to Soontir vs Ibitsan at the end. It was literally one hull point in it. Ran Turr with PtL as my last ship.

This is my version of Vader and friends:

29 Darth Vader

5 Homing Missiles

4 Engine Upgrade

27 Soontir Fel

3 Push the Limit

3 Stealth Device

25 Turr Phennir

3 Stealth Device

1 Veteran Instincts

---

It's pretty much the standard list, or was when it was still popular. All three ships seem to just dance around the play area, dodging firing arcs left and right while lining up their own.

Anecdoctally, I have seen a decent amount of people online post their opinions that they will not get any non-movie ship. There will be a difference in sales. Now, how big it will be is certainly up for debate. But I doubt FFG would gamble on that.

HWK as rules for the game was fine. HWK as fig to explore acceptance of EU was bloody stupid. I've only read about 50 SW novels and spend a few hours a week on Wookiepedia, so I'm not really an expert, and I'd never heard of that thing. In the corporate world, going with the HWK would be an example of compromise between two factions: One side wanted to explore EU feasibility and the other side did not. The side that did not agreed to do it, so long as they got to choose the ship, and they went with just about the most obscure thing they could find. Oh. Now I see. NJO. That explains it. SMH.

There are two problems and they're both points related. If something like the TIE Defender costs 50 pts, so be it. We'll play 100 pts and I'll bring my 8-9 TIE/Ln against your 2 Defenders. And I'll win because this is a dice game and I'm chucking a lot more dice than you are. There's power creep, and then there's whether or not said power creep is actually practical.

And that leads into the next problem: Game size. You're going to continue seeing odd lists as long as the game is officially encouraged to be played at 100 pts. It's best to think of that as a microcosm of a much larger engagement. Start playing with 500, 750, 1000 pts and now you'll see some lists that actually make sense (and will take the whole afternoon to play). I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd sure like to take a full squadron of X, Y, A, B, E & K Wings against 60 TIE/Ln, a squadron of Interceptors and a flight of Defenders and Avengers.

And large games encourage players to buy more models.

Anecdoctally, I have seen a decent amount of people online post their opinions that they will not get any non-movie ship. There will be a difference in sales. Now, how big it will be is certainly up for debate. But I doubt FFG would gamble on that.

Are you familiar with Starship Combat News? For anyone who isn't, it's a website devoted to starship gaming. There are 40+ starship wargames currently in production. Obviously some are larger/more successful than others. Some require their own figs. Most let you use any figs you want. And people have been gaming SW, ST, BSG, B5, etc. for decades longer than X-Wing Minis has been around. FFG, being the pros that they are, know better than to use this website as a gauge for who will buy what (by definition, the people that frequent the official website are already fans and likely to buy what the company puts out. Spread your research net over a larger area).

People will buy what's available and find someplace else to get it if it's not.

HWK as rules for the game was fine. HWK as fig to explore acceptance of EU was bloody stupid. I've only read about 50 SW novels and spend a few hours a week on Wookiepedia, so I'm not really an expert, and I'd never heard of that thing. In the corporate world, going with the HWK would be an example of compromise between two factions: One side wanted to explore EU feasibility and the other side did not. The side that did not agreed to do it, so long as they got to choose the ship, and they went with just about the most obscure thing they could find. Oh. Now I see. NJO. That explains it. SMH.

There are two problems and they're both points related. If something like the TIE Defender costs 50 pts, so be it. We'll play 100 pts and I'll bring my 8-9 TIE/Ln against your 2 Defenders. And I'll win because this is a dice game and I'm chucking a lot more dice than you are. There's power creep, and then there's whether or not said power creep is actually practical.

And that leads into the next problem: Game size. You're going to continue seeing odd lists as long as the game is officially encouraged to be played at 100 pts. It's best to think of that as a microcosm of a much larger engagement. Start playing with 500, 750, 1000 pts and now you'll see some lists that actually make sense (and will take the whole afternoon to play). I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd sure like to take a full squadron of X, Y, A, B, E & K Wings against 60 TIE/Ln, a squadron of Interceptors and a flight of Defenders and Avengers.

And large games encourage players to buy more models.

Bringing the HWK into the game is what brought me into the game, and I'm glad they did. I've always loved Star Wars - for all kinds of reasons - but Dark Forces holds a special place in my heart. That having been said, I never before made a distinction about what was EU and what wasn't. The Moldy Crow was as much a part of the Star Wars universe as anything else.

How you do that?

Easy...just be sure to get the link with the "Watch" tag in it.

I am actually looking forward to a number of the EU ships. I was a huge fan of the old Star Wars: Tie Fighter game and am really looking forward to the eventual release of the Tie Defender and other fighters.

That having been said, I never before made a distinction about what was EU and what wasn't. The Moldy Crow was as much a part of the Star Wars universe as anything else.

I think this may be a key point, and one that may have a lot to do with age, individual experience, and level of exposure.

Someone like myself, who grew up in 90s, may have experienced the EU just as early and as often, possibly even more, than the original movies. There were a lot of books, games, etc that came out around this time, especially the X-Wing vs TIE Fighter PC games. The EU was every bit as relevant to my experience with the franchise as the films were. Now someone older who may have only seen the movies because they were kind of the only Star Wars thing around at the time, or someone the same age or younger who just didn't happen to have the same level of exposure to the EU, it may just be a weird jumble of "unofficial side stuff" that they aren't as interested in because it came along (in their experience anyway) long after they had established the original films as part of the "stuff I really like" area in their brain, and so it is treated as a separate entity.

Meh, I accepted it all until they put IG-88 into the Death Star II. Then I just enjoyed the stories I liked.

That having been said, I never before made a distinction about what was EU and what wasn't. The Moldy Crow was as much a part of the Star Wars universe as anything else.

I think this may be a key point, and one that may have a lot to do with age, individual experience, and level of exposure.

Someone like myself, who grew up in 90s, may have experienced the EU just as early and as often, possibly even more, than the original movies. There were a lot of books, games, etc that came out around this time, especially the X-Wing vs TIE Fighter PC games. The EU was every bit as relevant to my experience with the franchise as the films were. Now someone older who may have only seen the movies because they were kind of the only Star Wars thing around at the time, or someone the same age or younger who just didn't happen to have the same level of exposure to the EU, it may just be a weird jumble of "unofficial side stuff" that they aren't as interested in because it came along (in their experience anyway) long after they had established the original films as part of the "stuff I really like" area in their brain, and so it is treated as a separate entity.

This is pretty true I think. Return of the Jedi was the first movie I actually saw at a theatre, so the movies have a special place in my childhood whereas the EU stuff mostly happened after I was interested. That doesn't mean I'm opposed to the EU stuff being in he game- not at all- it just doesn't have the same level of interest for me as X-wings and TIEs.

Anecdoctally, I have seen a decent amount of people online post their opinions that they will not get any non-movie ship. There will be a difference in sales. Now, how big it will be is certainly up for debate. But I doubt FFG would gamble on that.

first of all, people post many things online - in particular "will do/ will not do" statements have a short life time, in this context posters are often enough convinced at some point that they will not buy product A because of reasons X,Y and in the end still end up buying it because of Z.

Besides, even the basic distinction in movie vs. not in movie is kind blurry, when people post a handful movie frames of a battle where some ship appears that isn't referenced anywhere else in the movie - is something still canon if all information aside from a blurry pic originates from EU?

True, notable ships from the movies will sell best - but that's already done and I would bet EU ships sell better than repaints of the first set of original ships...