Hey Everyone, I'm looking for some Rules Discussion:

Some questions came up in our last game about buying illicit weapons and equipment on the Black Market (pg.150). The Players would like to buy some Rarity 6 (based on tables 5-1 and 5-2) equipment that are deemed illegal in their current location.

(1) If the Streetwise roll is a success, what is the cost of the item? Just the item base-cost?

(2) Is the price modified by Table 5-3?

(3) If not, what is Table 5-3 used for, just bulk smuggling/trading?

To us at the table, and to the Scoundrel Character who had invested in Black Market Contacts Talent (pg.132), this was confusing. The rest of the players argued that once the Streetwise roll is passed, they would only pay base-cost for the item. The Player with Black Market Contacts talent was under the impression that Cost went up with Rarity. If not, then his Talent means he's paying substantially more credits for the cost of only lowering Rarity checks by one, which may or may not even lower the Streetwise check. The Player thought his "contact" was an ally who would give him a good deal on rare items. Needless to say, Black-Market-Contact Player is understandably disappointed with this Talent...

(Note: when rolling Streetwise, I acknowledge that Advantage/Threat might be used to affect the cost as well, maybe something like +/- 10% cost per symbol)

Also, our Wookie got his hand cut off, and he'd still like to wield his VibroAxe (requires 2 hands), what is a fair way to judge this? Is adding 1 Setback Die fair, 2? Should it simply be "not allowed" ?

1) the availibility, restrictions level,and price of black market items is up to the gm. The players rolls and action might effect this, but the starting point is the GMs call.

2)no

3)yes.

Note that the streetwise roll is to find the item, not to buy it. Haggling over price is under negotiate. So black market contacts allows you to find something easier, if you're willing to pay. Once your found it you can negotiate it down.

Also note that black market contacts is an optional talent. So you can ignore it when looking for easy to find items that you don't want the markup on, and save it for the really hard to find things that you otherwise wouldn't have a chance of getting your hands on.

in the beta there was a black market cost adjustment table, I wonder where it went...

The way I read it, Black Market Contacts are folks who will charge finders' fees for expediting the delivery of an illicit good. The faster you want it, the more it will cost.

True, rank 1 is pretty limited. The player will only want to use the talent if the rarity is an even number, and even then, he may decide it's worth the extra difficulty to try and locate the item on his own and save a few creds. At rank 2 and 3, the talent really starts to shine, but that added benefit comes at a premium.

With regard to the one-armed Wookiee, 1 setback sounds fair.

in the beta there was a black market cost adjustment table, I wonder where it went...

Disappeared before the core book. Part of it was redundant I guess since part of it was the Item Acquisition Difficulty based on Rarity which was much the same as the Difficulty on the Rarity table with some slight shuffling of the Rarity numbers. I imagine they dropped the table so GMs could just use the Rarity Check Difficulty and decide on costs themselves.

Black Market Goods

Rarity Item Acquisition Difficulty Cost

0-2 Easy x100%

3-4 Average x200%

5 Hard x300%

6-7 Daunting x500%

8-10 Formidable x1000%

11 + Upgrade once per level Rarity x 100%

In response to Ghostofman, I guess its coming down to an issue of player entitlement in this case, as the majority of players want to surety of only having to pay X-amount, and not be at the whime of the GM's arbitration.

So if that's the case, is the Black Market Contacts talent kinda lame? One possible solution is to make that "contact" into an actual ally of the character, and let it have some roleplaying benefits, even if the mechanical ones are underwhelming.

In response to Ghostofman, I guess its coming down to an issue of player entitlement in this case, as the majority of players want to surety of only having to pay X-amount, and not be at the whime of the GM's arbitration.

So if that's the case, is the Black Market Contacts talent kinda lame? One possible solution is to make that "contact" into an actual ally of the character, and let it have some roleplaying benefits, even if the mechanical ones are underwhelming.

Well, the player still get's the benefit of getting a discount over what the GM would normally determine the price is in the situation. But yeah, I definitely play out the character meeting up or contacting his/her contact.

Maybe change the wording of the talent to "it downgrades the Black Market check once per level taken" so that it works always and makes up for the fact that costs are still in the GM's hands for those that don't like that.

In response to Ghostofman, I guess its coming down to an issue of player entitlement in this case, as the majority of players want to surety of only having to pay X-amount, and not be at the whime of the GM's arbitration.

So if that's the case, is the Black Market Contacts talent kinda lame? One possible solution is to make that "contact" into an actual ally of the character, and let it have some roleplaying benefits, even if the mechanical ones are underwhelming.

The thing is, it's a big galaxy, with a big, complicated economy. There is no guaranteed price for anything. I think pointing to a line item in a rule book and saying "that's my final offer" is a little too meta-gamey.

BMC is only lame if the player assumes the base price in the book is the only "fair" price. Personally, I see it as kind of a gambling mini-game. Does he take a chance on his Streetwise check to find a rare item on his own, or does he pay someone to try and track it down for him? If the finder lines up a seller for 4000 credits, does he take the deal or hold out for a better offer down the road? Playing the Black Market comes down to how badly does the player want X?

The gamble of using the Black Market Contact and its finder's fee, versus the Chance of Failure to find it at all. I think thats a really good way of putting it!

In response to Ghostofman, I guess its coming down to an issue of player entitlement in this case, as the majority of players want to surety of only having to pay X-amount, and not be at the whime of the GM's arbitration.

So if that's the case, is the Black Market Contacts talent kinda lame? One possible solution is to make that "contact" into an actual ally of the character, and let it have some roleplaying benefits, even if the mechanical ones are underwhelming.

You're taking too firm an approach. The "gm calls it" isn't there to hose to player, its there to keep the player from being able to get something that would throw a serious monkey wrench into the adventure. Would it not be equally lame if the three act adventure with the goal of acquiring a load of missile tubes for the alliance could be cut short by a single good streetwise roll in the beginning of act one?

That's the double edge sword of the gm, you put everything in black and white and you risk cutting yourself off, make it all up to you and the players get fussy because you shouldn't be calling every shot...

If you want to establish your own little table for typical black market markups, I'd say do it, it'll come in handy. But I wouldn't make a hard rule unless you're ready to have the players use it beyond what you are asking about today.

Wow, I'm really glad that table didn't make it into the game past the beta, some of those costs would be crippling. Couple this table with the item rarity mod table and even some basic gear gets prohibitively expensive.

A heavy blaster pistol ( rarity 6, cost 700 credits ) would cost 7000 credits on Tatooine ( +2 item rarity for Outer Rim ) from the black market...

That's rough.

Haha, "too firm" an approach is the wrong way to describe my GM style. If anything, I'm too easy on them, give them too much money so they can afford just about anything. The issue is the double-edged sword of GMing, like you said, Ghostofman , even if I'm a push-over as a GM, some players still get antsy when the GM has the power to judge things arbitrarily. Its not a coincidence that the same players who want firm cost numbers, also want to powergame the system and not deal with narrative consequences.
(ie, they want to be armed with their heavy weapons and armor at all times, like in an MMO, even if they're just hanging out in a casual bar on Corellia)

I dont personally want a table that players can point to and say "it should be exactly this price". I'd rather roleplay it out, maybe the Seller is desperate and it'll be cheap, or maybe he's a swindler who's trying to pull one over on the PCs. The goal of this discussion is to figure out the intention of the cost rules so there's a common expectation between players and GM that's not being shattered. I have no desire to screw players out of equipment they want, but I also want the ability to challenge them in different situations.

Falkrunn , I had the same thought. Rare item costs can be absurdly high in a lot of circumstances. They didnt seem right to us at the table either.

Thanks, All, for the discussion, this has really cleared my head on the rules!

For the one-handed Wookiee, I think an upgrade would be more appropriate than a Setback, since with only one hand there's much more of a chance to lose control of the weapon and hurt himself (Despair). Or you could always do both!

1) I wouldn`t arbitrarily increase the costs for items as a barrier for players to get them. If you`re going to keep something away from them be straight about it. Had a group that all they wanted in the world was thermal detonators, after looking at them and realizing my players would use them to open a can of aldeeran ale just as quickly as actually use them for combat I firmly and politely and told them that they could not have it because it wouldn`t be appropriate for the campaign yet. They grumbled a bit but accepted it. Later I let them roll with a BMC for it and got one for 150% markup. They have yet to use it.

The game already has a mechanic for bringing the price down too, negotiation. Quit letting the talker sit on their arse and tell them to get out there an negotiate the price down already. My players frequently get between 30-50% off just by talking (and I do it off the total price after the markups for best effect).

If you`re players are really getting on you about increasing prices just ask them to come up with a reason. I love asking the players "Now why would it be like that?" I throw a cookie to the first player who comes up with a good reason. After all the game encourages players and GM's to work together to build the story.

2) I would not modify the price based on the 5-3 table. It's built there to represent the item just not being availible. Why to you think the outer-rim is so ripe with black marketing? Everyone has to have a black market contact to have a good chance to get anything. And the BMC modifies the price just fine. Your players may have 100K credits but cannot make an availbility roll? Tough luck, try the black market.

3) Lastly I would at least upgrade/increase the difficulty of a wookie wielding a vibro-axe one handed, or else you`re going to get the players thinking 'well it only gives me one setback to wield one vibro-axe, why not grab a second?' Then you have dual wielding vibro axe mauraders and that creates quite a mess. Even with the dual wielding penalties. Increasing the difficulty by one or upgrade the die by one seems like an okay solutions. If it were my group would have to say no to them, they`re going to have to find another solution. Having weilding many a medieval weapon I can tell you it's not to be taken lightly when someone says use two hands. And if this is the same group with all the money why haven`t they gotten the wookie a cybernetic hand yet?

In general letting players weild two handed items in one hand should be very difficult. Otherwise everyone is going to go with the dual wielding heavy repeating blasters. I know I would.