so I recently played some games against the XX-BB Rebel squadron that won worlds and found that having initiative (by default by plaing the imperials) was a severe disadvantage.

even though I was running PS 4 pilots vs. his PS4 Dagger squadrons with advanced sensors I always had to set up first which meant he could place his ships to start the game in a more advantageous way. Add to that every movement phase I would try to line up a shot, but with the use of his advanced sensors he could manoeuvre using barrel roll to avoid my arc and get a firing arc on me more often than not.

I understand that advanced sensors is an amazing card however even without it moving second means you can optimise your action selection rather than doing something based on a guess of what you opponent is going to do.

The only real benifit to having initiative is moving first hoping block which is a crap-shot more often than not anyways and not a significant enough advantage to balance out the disadvantages. Additionally I am aware of the very minor potential for criticals to affect the pilot firing second during similtaneous firing, but feel that the % of the time this will happen is so small that it will not make up the difference of advantage vs. disadvantage.

So my question is, is there any way to 'donate' initiative to your opponent? it would seem on the face of it regarding the tournament rules that having initiative was intended to be more benificial than detrimental however in practice the opposite appears to be the case.

I have read on other forums that some 'House rules' allow the player who would recieve Initiative to decide who gets it, but this in not what will happen in a tournament.

TL:DR Can you give up initiative?

Usually what you do is determine initiative first by points, then by chance.

A 99 point squad will have initiative over a 100 point squad, for example.

In a tie, you usually roll for it, flip a coin, whatever.

Usually what you do is determine initiative first by points, then by chance.

A 99 point squad will have initiative over a 100 point squad, for example.

In a tie, you usually roll for it, flip a coin, whatever.

Yes I understand how initiative is determined, my question was if you would normally recieve it can you voluntarily give it to your opponent due to it actually being a disadvantage most of the time.

From your answer I suspect there are no other official ways of determining Initiative.

Well your question implied you were going strictly by Rebel vs Imperial in a tie, which is not how it's generally played, so I thought I'd elaborate. But no, I am not aware of any official means of surrendering initiative. If you were tied, won it, you can't force your opponent to take initiative.

Well your question implied you were going strictly by Rebel vs Imperial in a tie, which is not how it's generally played, so I thought I'd elaborate. But no, I am not aware of any official means of surrendering initiative. If you were tied, won it, you can't force your opponent to take initiative.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

I cant think of a time where I had ever wanted to lose a coin flip but there is a first time for everything.

If you could give it up then why couldn't your opponent just do the same?

It is determined by points and then randomly assigned if points are tied. Now it seems you may be running into a situation where the real solution for you is simply to use more skilled pilots.

One area where having initiative can be a big help is in blocking or imminent overlaps. Taking a blocking position first lets you keep your action while your opponent loses theirs. It also means you can generally complete your moves without interference, while the collision can start a multi-car pileup of lost actions on his part. Getting there first can let you barrel roll or boost out of the collision into a more advantageous position that would have been lost with your action. Moving first can let you barrel roll or boost INTO a collision that you wouldn't have been able to achieve otherwise. It can also be used to spoil an opponent's K-turn. Admittedly, the B-wing (or more properly Advanced Sensors) can mitigate some of this, but going first still presents its opportunities.

Regardless of preference or tactical evaluation of the merits, however, the above responses have it correct - short of the point value you build towards, you cannot influence it. Lower points, then random, and that's that.

I also prefer not having initiative.
Knowing your opponent's positioning when you are throwing around actions is extraordinarily valuable, but it is even moreso when factoring in the Target Lock action, or when dropping bombs.

However, there are some fleets I would like to try where Initiative is valued: specifically ones with Intelligence Agents.

As you continue to play you will find yourself beginning to appreciate having the initiative more once again. The biggest advantage you are going to get by having initiative is firing before your opponent. I realize they get to fire back, but when using multipliers like Howlrunner, it is critical to be able to shoot first. In addition, Focus used offensively nets more damage than focus used defensively despite the fact that they both improve the dice by 2 pips because additional damage is nearly always useful where additional defense is not. You have the opportunity to use focus where it is at its "best", and save it if it isn't needed, rather than the opposite way around.

In this particular example, if the Daggers were to fire before you and eliminate Howlrunner, your return fire would be done without her reroll. This is enormous, and one of the two main reasons swarms want initiative (the other being the opportunity to block / not be blocked). Advanced Sensors IS an amazing card, and largely mitigates the disadvantage of moving second, but in general there are advantages to having initiative you will appreciate more as you become more adept at predicting your opponent.

The very concept of initiative in X-wing is self balancing. If you have a skill 1 pilot, he moves first, and shoots lastopposite is true for a high level, moves last, shoots first. Initiative is balanced in that while you have to move first, you also get to shoot first (in the case of tied pilot skills, of course). Having initiative isn't any less or more imbalancing than any other mechanism in any other game that determines tie breakers.

Initiative is another example of bad designing in this game.

Having the initiative based on Pilot Skill totals rather than build/list point total

would have made much more sense.

Initiative is another example of bad designing in this game.

Sorry I fail to see how one arbitrary method is that much worse then another.

(deleted)

Initiative is another example of bad designing in this game.

Having the initiative based on Pilot Skill totals rather than build/list point total

would have made much more sense.

Sorry I fail to see how one arbitrary method is that much worse then another.

Of course you fail, I had three paragraphs worth of explanation written out, and knowing how much people on here pick at every little thing that you say I decided to keep it simple, knowing that people with brains would figure out the correlation. So go ahead and fail away.

I'm still rather new as I don't even have a dozen games under my belt, but I can see it does have is pros and cons

To a veteran player I'll have to assume that it probably has more pros than cons, but as stated, being able to shoot before your opponent is a nice advantage

Being able to see what your opponents move first and then decide to barrel roll or something else is kind of a con for me

As I am new I do Ok with the rebels but poorly with the Imps, mainly because I always move first, therefore I don't use barrel roll as much as I should (also doesn't help that I fly into my guys more than I should)

As for moving first with hopes to block your opponent, that 2 out of 3 times I feel is a gamble unless you know your opponent has no other moves

As for placing first, so far doesn't really seem like a huge advantage to anyone. I find after the first round nobody is within attack range anyway.

Imo shooting first is a huge advantage because you make your opponent user his focus to defend rather on you, plus you may kill one of his ships before it even gets a chance to attack which really helps.

However for me seeing where my opponent moves first and what action he takes can really help determine what coarse of action in going to take

I think it is balance the way they have done it

And in all honesty if people have problems with the game design, why do you even play?

Off topic but does anyone else come here with their smart phone?

It a pain typing with the dang auto correct

Initiative is another example of bad designing in this game.

Sorry I fail to see how one arbitrary method is that much worse then another.

You should probably just ignore Gabe. He's got quite the reputation over on BGG and tends to find the strangest things to wind himself up over. Better to just leave him be.

Off topic but does anyone else come here with their smart phone?

It a pain typing with the dang auto correct.

Occasionally. It tends to capitalize everything I say, 'cause I turn Autocorrect off.

And yet, for all the examples he finds of [his arbitrary definition of] "bad designing" in this game, it sadly doesn't seem to scare him off.

Initiative is just a thing. It's just an element of the game to be taken into account, with advantages and disadvantages both. Some squads prefer having it, some squads prefer to operate without it.

T he reason it's most often perceived as a disadvantage is that the people who bank on having or not having it do a poor job of adjusting their tactics to exploit it to best effect regardless of who has it. You just need to have a plan for how you run your squad with and without it.

So in tournament play of both squads have 100pt how is initiative decided?

If imperial vs rebels, do imperial have it by default?

Or is it through dice roll?

How to others go abouts doing it at home?

We just use the default rules

Tournament rules dictate that it is decided by dice roll if both sides are equal points. Otherwise, lower point total has initiative.

Jim

The game uses initiative in quite a few cases. In most of them initiative is an advantage. In one case it is a disadvantage. While having initiative gives you most advantages you do not get all of them. In my opinion that is good.

Look at the various uses of initiative:

Setup asteroids (tournament only): Place first asteroid marker.

By placing the first asteroid you also define an area without asteroids. And there are only a few places left where the last asteroid can go.

small advantage

Setup ships: Place ships last.

Knowing where the enemy ships are is better than placing first.

small advantage

Activation phase: Activate ship first.

Pilot skill costs points. You pay points for choosing your action when you know what the enemy already did. In most cases you want to activate your ships last. The only exception to this is if your strategy involves blocking to force overlapping. For lists with mainly PS1 and perhaps PS2 initiative is an advantage. More often than not it is a disadvantage.

disadvantage

Shooting: Shoot first.

Nobody doubts that shooting first is an advantage. You even pay points for PS so you can shoot first. Due to the simultaneous attack rule the advantage may be small.

advantage

Mutual destruction (rulebook) or draw (tournament rules): Win game.

Mutual destruction is very unlikely. Winning a game which common sense calls a draw is nice, though.

advantage

The only time initiative is a disadvantage is during the activation phase. Even then it does not have to be but it mostly is. In all other phases of the game initiative is an advantage. In some cases the one disadvantage may override all those (small) advantages.

If your list really requires your ships to move last (like Fel with PTL or Vader with EU) then you do not want initiative. In most other cases you do.

The only time initiative is a disadvantage is during the activation phase. Even then it does not have to be but it mostly is. In all other phases of the game initiative is an advantage. In some cases the one disadvantage may override all those (small) advantages.

If your list really requires your ships to move last (like Fel with PTL or Vader with EU) then you do not want initiative. In most other cases you do.

When i run Bombers, i don't want initiative. Let the enemy come to me, then i move up and can now TL for the Alpha volley.

In most other games, i find i want Initiative more than not simply for the first asteroid placement in addition to moving and shooting first.

Can't argue with anything in your post...sounds about right to me.

Actually I would almost switch the rating of set up and shooting first.

Set up can give you insight into the other guy's plans and let you set up to counter.

Shooting first isn't as big as it's often given credit for because the only time initiative matters, so does simultaneous fire.

Yes, you can shoot first and land a disabling crit - I did so just recently, and there's no question that makes it an advantage. There are very few crits that do this, though, so it's a very small percentage chance. More a pleasant rare side effect than anything you want to bank your strategy on.

Since the Imps rule the Galaxy, them having Initiative makes sense over the scrambling Rebels.

It's a tolerable mechanic, but adding up Pilot Skills absolutely makes more sense. Maks people put a little more thought into their lists and a static negative with people making swarms.

The game uses initiative in quite a few cases. In most of them initiative is an advantage. In one case it is a disadvantage. While having initiative gives you most advantages you do not get all of them. In my opinion that is good.

Look at the various uses of initiative:

Setup asteroids (tournament only): Place first asteroid marker.

By placing the first asteroid you also define an area without asteroids. And there are only a few places left where the last asteroid can go.

small advantage

Setup ships: Place ships last.

Knowing where the enemy ships are is better than placing first.

small advantage

Activation phase: Activate ship first.

Pilot skill costs points. You pay points for choosing your action when you know what the enemy already did. In most cases you want to activate your ships last. The only exception to this is if your strategy involves blocking to force overlapping. For lists with mainly PS1 and perhaps PS2 initiative is an advantage. More often than not it is a disadvantage.

disadvantage

Shooting: Shoot first.

Nobody doubts that shooting first is an advantage. You even pay points for PS so you can shoot first. Due to the simultaneous attack rule the advantage may be small.

advantage

Mutual destruction (rulebook) or draw (tournament rules): Win game.

Mutual destruction is very unlikely. Winning a game which common sense calls a draw is nice, though.

advantage

The only time initiative is a disadvantage is during the activation phase. Even then it does not have to be but it mostly is. In all other phases of the game initiative is an advantage. In some cases the one disadvantage may override all those (small) advantages.

If your list really requires your ships to move last (like Fel with PTL or Vader with EU) then you do not want initiative. In most other cases you do.

Interesting take on what is perceived as advantageous and what is not, I agree with most of what you say however the weighting (in my opinion at least) needs to be more detailed.

Asteroid Setup:

While placing the first asteroid grants a small advantage, due to the you-go-I-go nature of the placing of them this advantage is reduced further. if the locations of the asteroids after they are all placed significantly affects your game plan I don't feel that this is something that can be attributed to initiative and more to your squad building.

Conclusion: Minor advantage having initiative

Setup:

though I don't want to flat out say your wrong, im 99.9% sure that in instances where you have ships on both sides with the same PS the player with Initiative places their ships first, not last as you stated. In the most severe situation of this occurring would be Tie Swarm vs. Tie swarm (lots of PS1 vs. PS1), and as you say setting up last grants an advantage (significant in my opinion). having knowledge of your opponents start position in relation to the final asteroid layout prior to you setting up is very relevant.

Conclusion: Disadvantage having initiative.

Activation phase:

as you so rightly pointed out, and as similarly stated above, being able to make a decision for your action based on where your opponents ships have already moved and made decisions as to their actions is of great value, knowing when to TL, barrel rolling out of an opponents ships arc or into a firing arc of your own (or both if your lucky enough).

This I believe is the biggest reason that initiative is disadvantageous.

Conclusion: Significant disadvantage to have initiative

Shooting phase:

Caution wall of text incomming:

in terms of initiative having an effect during shooting, it is only between ships of the same PS as well as additional ship who might grant additional abilities to those ships when they fire (aka Howlrunner)

removing Howlrunner (and similar effects) from the equation for the moment, the only benefit to initiative during simultaneous firing is Critical hits that effect the return fire ability of the pilot. 4 of the 33 cards will have an effect and 4 of the 33 damage cards might have an effect. for arguments sake I will assume all 8 will have an effect.

so 8 of 33 cards is 24 % chance of a critical that will effect return fire, the chances of a crit (unmodified or rerolled) is 1 in 8 further reducing the possibility to 3% per attack die rolled, for 2 attack die on every Tie fighter that's less than a 1 in 16 chance per attack.

Conversely adding Howlrunner to the mix either on your side or the opposing side changes things significantly enough that you want to be able take out their Howlrunner so they don't have re rolls when they return fire, This is one of the 2 primary reasons that you would ever want initiative.

Conclusion: very small advantage (Except when Howlrunner is on either side)

The one other significant element you missed out was movement.

Movement (action denial):

Again the best example is the Tie swarm vs Tie swarm scenario where blocking is a primary element of attrition whereby preventing opponents ships from getting to where they want them to be as well as stripping them of their action for the turn (and in rare occasions parking them on an asteroid).

This is the second Primary reason for wanting initiative, (as I eluded to earlier) and possibly the biggest reason you would want initiative. denying actions is a powerful element to the game, and strategic blocking appears to be a defining mechanic of the top levels of play, not only stopping your opponents ships but also intentional blocking of your own ships to keep a fast moving ship from overtaking a slow moving opponent (but that has nothing to do initiative, sorry sidetracked).

Conclusion: Advantage to have initiative (primarily for specific swarm style squadrons)

TL;DR

In summary, if you prize knowledge of what your opponent has done before making your move or selected action (both in setup and ongoing gameplay ) then having initiative is bad

if playing Howlrunner Swarm, or any squad where blocking and action denial are an integral part of your playstyle then you do want initiative.

I personally don't like having initiative (particularly against those pesky dagger squardon + AdvSen) but initiative lends itself to particular play styles.

As I originally stated when I began this thread, I just wish that as per the current method of determining initiate, the person that would receive it (by either having a lower point squad or by winning the coin toss when points are tied) that player may decide who gets initiative. Much like in many card games (Like magic the gathering) the player who wins the coin toss decides who starts.