Just as a curious experiment, based on a character that was built for a friend, how would you deal with this character out of the gates? Without necessarily designing encounters which would result in other members of the party being disintergrated. The droid in question is now dead (The DM had used a Triumph rolled by a NPC to kick him out of a window, unaware that falling two stories would inflict enough brawn and strain to knock him outright, and out of reach from the PC's.) but this is more to fish for ideas incase someone else makes another.

I believe the soak was due to... 5 Brawn, (resulting in 5,1,1,1,1,1 stats) +1 from being a droid, +1 from going into Maulder, and +2 from armour. This soak is likely to increase with further talents/armour bonus's

My thoughts thus far:

Ion weapons inflict 10 off the bat, yet can't be used on meatbags. Thus should be decent enough to inflict a level of threat on the droid.

Heavy weapons: Enough to hurt him, but will likely kill the rest of the party relitively easily with their soaks of between 3/4.

Using skills that isn't brawn: Some merit here, though a large portion of skills can be handled by other PC's anyways, hence a lack of brains isn't a downside. Though I could see agility and disapline checks being a really large problem for said character.

Rule 0: Simply ask that players don't make another Maraulder quite as optimalised.

Just curious if there was anything I could have missed. It's just a thought experiment incase the same situation crops up.

First of all: remember that a PC isn't dead because he exceeds his wound threshold. He's just out of the fight. So don't be too worried about hitting them with a vehicle weapon. Only crits of 141+ (I think) kills characters.

Sedond, you could stick one enemy in any given group (at least for the end-of-adventure climactic fight) with a big weapon like a rifle or heavy blaster, something with a rank or two in pierce, high damage and wielded by someone with multiple dice for lots of successes. Or a Marauder-type with a vibro-axe. Give that NPC decent soak as well so he won't go down immediately, and have him focus on the wardroid (using the rationale that he is clearly the biggest threat) and let the less heavily armed NPCs take on the rest of the group. That should be enough to let your wardroid-player sweat without punishing the rest of the group.

And as a third option you could (and in my opinion, should) throw in lots of encounters that can't be solved through combat. Interaction with NPCs, repairs, computer slicing, scrounging for equipment, surviving in the wilds - all things that let players who didn't min-max their stats shine as well. It sounds like this character was meant to exel at combat, so it's important to give the rest of the group some time in the sun as well. If the wardroid player doesn't like it, remind him that's the cost of making a one-trick pony.

You seem to have thought of plenty of good options already.

Brawn 5? I'd rule that that would be reflected in the size of its chassis, so it's making itself a nice, obvious target - so Heavy Weaponry isn't likely to be too much bother to the less combat focused characters, as the heavies will target the droid.

Other than that, I'd have someone slap a restraining bolt on it (either from Stealth or, if Engaged, from Skulduggery). With its terrible Will, there's little chance of resistance.

With that stat line what did he do when you weren't in a fight? He can't have had fun, right?

If all else fails, you could also send someone with a lightsaber after your players.

Emperor's Hands, Inquisitors, Jensaarai, Blackguards, Jedi survivors, and even the occasional bounty hunter are all viable options for lightsaber-wielding opponents.

I love the restraining bolt idea... Good luck getting out of the way of that with one-trick Characteristics. Another option is NPCs using Pressure Point... that will hurt.

But really, the most viable option is to use the environment. This droid is going to have a hard time doing anything not Brawn related so create an environment that forces the party to make skill checks to get through it. Also, social encounters. This droid is effectively dead in those encounters and if you try really hard to make the campaign a reasonable mix of social, combat, environmental, and star ship challenges, this droid will wish he had been more well rounded.

We have a war droid in our group (sitting at 6 brawn and 13 soak currently), but he has been brought to his knees on several occasions. Thankfully, my character is a killer mechanic.

You seem to have thought of plenty of good options already.

Brawn 5? I'd rule that that would be reflected in the size of its chassis, so it's making itself a nice, obvious target - so Heavy Weaponry isn't likely to be too much bother to the less combat focused characters, as the heavies will target the droid.

Other than that, I'd have someone slap a restraining bolt on it (either from Stealth or, if Engaged, from Skulduggery). With its terrible Will, there's little chance of resistance.

With that stat line what did he do when you weren't in a fight? He can't have had fun, right?

Brawn 5 is perfectly achievable by anyone, including a Jawa, so I don't think increasing size is really appropriate, nor is the restraining bolt.

Having 2 soak and 10 soak characters in the same party is just a consequence of the system. Being able to down characters in 2 hits where those same 2 hits wouldn't even hurt another character is just lousy game balance, and it comes up fairly often, although not usually so dramatically.

You're basically in the situation where you have a superhero and sidekicks. Most people don't like being forced into the role of a sidekick because of choices another player made when they had made their character to be a hero.

You seem to have thought of plenty of good options already.

Brawn 5? I'd rule that that would be reflected in the size of its chassis, so it's making itself a nice, obvious target - so Heavy Weaponry isn't likely to be too much bother to the less combat focused characters, as the heavies will target the droid.

Other than that, I'd have someone slap a restraining bolt on it (either from Stealth or, if Engaged, from Skulduggery). With its terrible Will, there's little chance of resistance.

With that stat line what did he do when you weren't in a fight? He can't have had fun, right?

Brawn 5 is perfectly achievable by anyone, including a Jawa, so I don't think increasing size is really appropriate, nor is the restraining bolt.

Having 2 soak and 10 soak characters in the same party is just a consequence of the system. Being able to down characters in 2 hits where those same 2 hits wouldn't even hurt another character is just lousy game balance, and it comes up fairly often, although not usually so dramatically.

You're basically in the situation where you have a superhero and sidekicks. Most people don't like being forced into the role of a sidekick because of choices another player made when they had made their character to be a hero.

Because General Grievous and Padme Amidala's soak should be so much closer... or something...?

I think if I met someone with Brawn 5, I'd know it - regardless of species.

You seem to have thought of plenty of good options already.

Brawn 5? I'd rule that that would be reflected in the size of its chassis, so it's making itself a nice, obvious target - so Heavy Weaponry isn't likely to be too much bother to the less combat focused characters, as the heavies will target the droid.

Other than that, I'd have someone slap a restraining bolt on it (either from Stealth or, if Engaged, from Skulduggery). With its terrible Will, there's little chance of resistance.

With that stat line what did he do when you weren't in a fight? He can't have had fun, right?

Brawn 5 is perfectly achievable by anyone, including a Jawa, so I don't think increasing size is really appropriate, nor is the restraining bolt.

Having 2 soak and 10 soak characters in the same party is just a consequence of the system. Being able to down characters in 2 hits where those same 2 hits wouldn't even hurt another character is just lousy game balance, and it comes up fairly often, although not usually so dramatically.

You're basically in the situation where you have a superhero and sidekicks. Most people don't like being forced into the role of a sidekick because of choices another player made when they had made their character to be a hero.

In my game, he would be the sidekick, and not a particularly useful one at that. Even in combat the only thing that droid could do is take a hit and maybe occasionally punch someone.

One trick ponys only have one trick. GMs should have many more

Brawn 5 is perfectly achievable by anyone, including a Jawa, so I don't think increasing size is really appropriate, nor is the restraining bolt.

Having 2 soak and 10 soak characters in the same party is just a consequence of the system. Being able to down characters in 2 hits where those same 2 hits wouldn't even hurt another character is just lousy game balance, and it comes up fairly often, although not usually so dramatically.

You're basically in the situation where you have a superhero and sidekicks. Most people don't like being forced into the role of a sidekick because of choices another player made when they had made their character to be a hero.

If you have played this system long enough (or WFRP3 as well), you would come to realize that it isn't "lousy game balance" and the characters are not in "sidekick and superhero" mode.

Simply look at the example ideas I posted above. Those are just a few ways to turn the tables. This sort of "superhero" is just a superhero in combat. They are pretty sad anywhere else unless you need stuff smashed. Your 2 soak politico might drop in 2 hits, but can run circles around "enemies" in social situations that the so-called superhero is worthless in. Suddenly, your politico has become your superhero.

It's not so much about balance as it is about properly GMing the system. THIS IS NOT D20! But even SAGA had this situation come up... so did D&D 3.5, Burning Wheel, Pathfinder, and just about every other system except maybe D&D4e, simply because it was more of a tactical-combat game than an RPG.

A character with 10+ soak has 10+ soak because he gave up something else. He has a weakness. He can be exploited.

How do you deal with it? By giving him bad guys to beat up.

Just because this pc put together a Brawn 5 melee monster combat droid doesn't mean he's somehow a "problem to be dealt with". The player wants to play this character, so let him.

If you're worried about threatening this droid, hit him in the dump stat, to use the phrase. Social encounters where being a droid is a disadvantage, where starting a fight leads to obligations like Criminal and Bounty. Problem/puzzle encounters where slicing or mechanics or stealth is needed. Or play up his strenghts, and give him a horde of minions to fight while the boss is in a location only accessible by some serious slicing or a difficult Coordination check.

If you don't want your BBEGs getting mauled by this Marauder, simply keep them out of his reach. But I would let him play his character and learn to deal with his deficiencies.

Now, if the PLAYER complains that you're doing this, that's a different problem. One that may require a nice sit down and discussion about what is fun for the group, and what is fun for just him...

I never liked games based on Toughness / Constitution soak.

I suggest to remove the Brawn characteristic from Soak and reduce all weapons damage by 2.

Cheers,

Yepes

Let him revel in his character. He obviously doesn't care much about social encounters. Mob him with minions. He can have fun fighting them during the combat encounters and go back to checking his phone during the other encounters.

I never liked games based on Toughness / Constitution soak.

I suggest to remove the Brawn characteristic from Soak and reduce all weapons damage by 2.

Cheers,

Yepes

This could actually work reasonably well. If you think about it, Defense isn't a derived Characteristic, doing the same for Soak changes the dynamic a little, but could result in a very interesting and even playing field. I might suggest this to my group playing a fantasy game with this system and see what comes of it.

I like the idea of coordination being an issue.

One thing to think about, even for combat encounters, is making your combats more three-dimensional, which adds in other facts for melee characters especially to think about.

For example, if there's a sniper concealed in the rafters of a building with a high-powered rifle, a massively bulky melee machine might not even be able to approach him. I'd say it would take Athletics and Coordination to scale the rafters and pursue an opponent up there, so in that case it might come down to a player character sniper or a really agile fighter to take out the enemy sniper.

Even something as simple as a narrow ledge that requires Coordination or a massive blast door that requires slicing to get past would cause troubles for such a war droid.

Ugh. I'm glad in a situation where I can pick and choose my players.

I wouldn't enjoy being a GM at all if every session was a long and frustrating arms race, an escalation with me trying to threaten the munchkin character without slaughtering the others who built balanced characters.

I'd just sit them down personally, tell them it's not about 'winning' or making the most tricked-out character, but it's about the narrative and story and my games reward balanced characters.

Yes, you could try to play on his weak points or stress non-combat, but I can't think of anything I'd enjoy less than the game becoming a constant battle for one-upmanship.

But then I'm kinda lucky that my players actually care about what I get from the game too.

I actually have a soak 9 droid in my player's party, and you know what he didn't like? Getting shot by a walker, stabbed with a lightsaber, and shot up with blaster rifle modified with an augmented spin barrel. Granted, with the exception of that unlucky AT-PT blast nothing has taken him down, but combat is still as tense as I want it to be.

It's not necessarily an "arms" race, it's just a creativity race. If all of your battles involve people in hallways shooting straight this droid is going to be a beast, but with a little strategy there are plenty of ways to challenge him.

Kinda wish my players thought about what I get out of the game myself... but meh. Such is the life of an entertainer.

Because General Grievous and Padme Amidala's soak should be so much closer... or something...?

Consider the number of fights she was in and came out unscathed... she probably has a higher soak.

I see your point, JH, but at my stage of life, I just want to GM for fun. I don't have anything to prove, to myself or my players.

That works best if everyone keeps within the spirit of the game, particularly in EoE where stats should take second place to narrative.

I actually think this is what happened in the SW films, post RotJ. The Jedi became so over-the-top powerful, that writers needed more and more powerful opponents to challenge them. And we ended up with the Vong, who always struck me as the creation of a bad GM. Immune to lightsabers, immune to force powers. And they act like something out of a really bad anime too.

Brawn 5 is perfectly achievable by anyone, including a Jawa, so I don't think increasing size is really appropriate, nor is the restraining bolt.

Having 2 soak and 10 soak characters in the same party is just a consequence of the system. Being able to down characters in 2 hits where those same 2 hits wouldn't even hurt another character is just lousy game balance, and it comes up fairly often, although not usually so dramatically.

You're basically in the situation where you have a superhero and sidekicks. Most people don't like being forced into the role of a sidekick because of choices another player made when they had made their character to be a hero.

If you have played this system long enough (or WFRP3 as well), you would come to realize that it isn't "lousy game balance" and the characters are not in "sidekick and superhero" mode.

Simply look at the example ideas I posted above. Those are just a few ways to turn the tables. This sort of "superhero" is just a superhero in combat. They are pretty sad anywhere else unless you need stuff smashed. Your 2 soak politico might drop in 2 hits, but can run circles around "enemies" in social situations that the so-called superhero is worthless in. Suddenly, your politico has become your superhero.

It's not so much about balance as it is about properly GMing the system. THIS IS NOT D20! But even SAGA had this situation come up... so did D&D 3.5, Burning Wheel, Pathfinder, and just about every other system except maybe D&D4e, simply because it was more of a tactical-combat game than an RPG.

A character with 10+ soak has 10+ soak because he gave up something else. He has a weakness. He can be exploited.

"Turning the tables" is not what you're trying to achieve as a GM, your goal is to make a fun game, and the reason we have this thread is because the lack of balance is making that hard to achieve.

Your idea of "use environment" really means nothing. Your idea of "have social encounters" likewise means nothing. You literally have no idea what else the droid has. He may very well have 5 ranks in multiple social skills and be the best diplomat in the party. Having a high brawn does not automatically make the character useless for anything else. Regardless the "solution" of not having combats is not a solution.

I actually think this is what happened in the SW films, post RotJ. The Jedi became so over-the-top powerful, that writers needed more and more powerful opponents to challenge them. And we ended up with the Vong, who always struck me as the creation of a bad GM. Immune to lightsabers, immune to force powers. And they act like something out of a really bad anime too.

The Vong are horribad. I don't know anyone that likes them. I'm sure J.J. Abrahms will feature them heavily.

It's not necessarily an "arms" race, it's just a creativity race. If all of your battles involve people in hallways shooting straight this droid is going to be a beast, but with a little strategy there are plenty of ways to challenge him.

And when the NPCs are jumping through hoops for one character and raining all their fire down on the same character, the other characters start to get a little bored.

Considering the same character's massive brawn also means they're probably killing 2, 3 or even more for every kill another character is getting, it can get pretty tiring pretty fast for some people. "Oh no, combat again, let the droid do it, I'm getting a coffee.."

I guess I'd be curious, first, if this was a source of conflict or distress among the players at the table. If the war droid was making things un-fun for the group, then I'd sit down and have a chat and see if there was a way for the war droid to have his melee powerhouse without bogarting the heroic moments.

If part of the droid-player's sense of fun is hitting things really hard and emerging from combat relatively unscathed, then I'd try to let him have it without sacrificing the group's fun. Give him platoons of storm troopers to distract while the rest of the group makes their escape. Or a Gundark. Or a Rancor. I'm assuming that's why a band of adventurers would have him along in the first place. Yes, a min-max build is incredibly limiting, but if a player is willing to sit on the bench until his one trick play comes along, then I'd try to be sure he gets at least one moment to shine per session.

And if the other players don't have a problem with this, then I'd say nothing needs fixing. I'm not keen on treating munchkins and min-maxers as rule-breakers who need to be shown the error of their ways. Not unless their munchkinism is actually causing problems at the table. And, again, talk it through with the player before doling out in-game punishment. The latter can be a mite passive-aggressive, and if the player catches on that you're punishing him because you don't like his character, that'll just lead to more problems at the table.

And finally, don't get too focused on wounds and strain. There can be other ways to create tension without threatening the players' thresholds. Put time limits on encounters: players have X number of rounds to clear the room of enemies and disarm a superweapon; or they have to chase down a fleeing group of kidnappers before they reach their ship (ht: Beyond the Rim). Put less-soakey bystanders in harm's way: rescue a group of villagers from a pirate firing squad; or lead a team of green recruits through a warzone. Even if the entire party turns into kryptonians (or whatever the Star Wars equivalent might be), there are plenty of ways to keep the tension high.

Use Ion weapons against the droid if he's really that bothersome? My doctor who semi abuses pressure point carries a jawa ion blaster just in case we fight droids.

In your opinions as GMs what is a good soak for a player to obtain? My 500+ xp Gadgeteer has a soak of 6 but once I reacquire my heavy battle armor it will be 8.

"Turning the tables" is not what you're trying to achieve as a GM, your goal is to make a fun game, and the reason we have this thread is because the lack of balance is making that hard to achieve.

Your idea of "use environment" really means nothing. Your idea of "have social encounters" likewise means nothing. You literally have no idea what else the droid has. He may very well have 5 ranks in multiple social skills and be the best diplomat in the party. Having a high brawn does not automatically make the character useless for anything else. Regardless the "solution" of not having combats is not a solution.

I don't think you quite understood me. As other posters have mentioned, using your environment includes having occasional snipers, bogging down the field with minions, forcing the PCs to make non-combat skill checks (Coordination, Vigilance, etc), among other things. These are all tools you should be doing anyway to spice up your encounters regardless of PC soak levels. How does that mean nothing?

I never said have *only* social encounters, but this game is begging for a good mix of everything. Combat, Social, Environmental, and Starship/Vehicle.

I'm sorry the term "turning the tables" was interpreted as "make the game not fun." That is not what I meant, rather "make the game a challenge." Challenging your PCs in the right way is essential to the fun of this game (and any RPG really) and it is far better than the alternative.

Sure, 5 Brawn is easy for many characters, but 5 Brawn, 10+ soak, and being good at much else is not unless you have very extreme XP levels. 5 Brawn on its own will net you at most 8 soak and may weapons can eat through that enough to challenge your 5 Brawn socialite.

My goal is to be constructive, but going around telling people their posts "mean nothing" doesn't help the conversation or propose any solution to those that are really interested in overcoming this challenge.

Again is not about game rules balance, its about having the right encounter balance. And that requires a skilled GM or a dedicated one who is really willing to put the effort to make everyone feel valued.

Also, as I mentioned, my group has a 13 soak 6 Brawn battledroid. No one considers him a superhero and my mechanic has had to spend a lot of time repairing him.