40k is a somewhat intolerant setting for other races, elfdar stick out too easily if their own arrogance didn't give them away, ogryn are too dumb for an investigation game. Ratlings MIGHT work, but what do they bring? The other abhumans all stick out in their own way, Kroot won't work, I could never see an Ork working either. RTs can break the rules a bit because they spend most of their time out of the imperium, while acolytes are the exact opposite. MAYBE in a future book they can have an addon like Grey Knights did for Malleus. But for the most important book? The Inquisitor's Handbook of DH2? No thanks. Look at how much skimpier Into the Storm is compared to the Inquisitor's Handbook, it tried to do too much and ended up spread too shin, while the Handbook is thick and packed full.

Eldar are the ones who really could blend into imperial society more easily if they really want to.

Their body shape and even faces are similar to humans. On most planets they could easily be considered as some off-worlder-humans, if they use a little make-up and corretly chosen clothes.

The Imperium is so big, that the "classical human" does not exist. Just think about comparing a bulky feral worlder to a thin pale void born.

I think ther eis even a novel where blending in of an eldar happens without too many problems.

Of course, other inquisitors or people with xenos knowledge would know. But such are rare and can be avoided.

Can't say I agree with this. Both were very useful in their own right and I found both to be indispensable to the games I ran! I do agree that the first supplement should be more geared toward useful add-ons for everyone rather than Niche products like xenos! Besides; I think playable Xenos more belong in the realm of Rogue trader or perhaps only war than in DH. The only thing is they work better when used independently of humans entirely! I've seen numerous threads over the years for playing an Orcish or DE RT game.I never did understand why ffg never went with Tau or Eldar game supplements since they would seem to be the most "playable" of the Xenos races in 40k. I would suspect this could be achieved in a "Xeno-compendius" but that would be a large supplement and would more properly belong in RT. (Or as we've seen before game 6 )

If they saved it for DH2, that would be a nice thing.

They would be the 2 kinds of xenos that could somehow be integrated into (temporary) inquisitorial service.

Tau would be harder to disguise though than eldar.

Eldar would be perfect.

What I meant is that the IH provided more character generation options, it provided alternate careers, which ItS did too. But where ItS lost it's focus was in trying to cover too much ground, but especially with the Xenos rules, while IH kept it simpler, 1 new career, new rules for skills, but most importanlty with gear. While ItS is a great book and is a must buy for RT players, compared to the wonderful gear selection for all kinds of PCs and NPCs, organized by type of world and bringing variety.

So to summarize, ItS is great and a must have, but viewed 1 on 1 with IH as the first supplement for a line, it lacks focus.

Gaunt Zero, I still find it hard to believe temperament of most xenos to work with the imperium (besides the mercenary kroot, but why bother?), and while elfdar may be able to pass for human on occasion, the risks of discovery are too great, not to mention the myriad of ways in which they can give themselves up. Ears, soulstones, grace, shape (though some pictures show them being similar to humans, for others the difference is pretty huge), etc.

If the options for Eldar or other Xenos PCs must exist, it would work better in a book like a Radical's handbook, which I felt sort of lacking in some ways. But I am open to being sold on the idea...maybe with an ascension level game it could work properly...

If anything, a Xenos supplement would sell pretty darn well. Besides, I would buy it just for the good read.

And eldar would offer a really deep culture to explore.

I agree on a whole eldar supplement, including their culture, NPC stats and the option to play an eldar pathfinder.

Add an eldar related adventure and its perfect.

Yes, you can play elves in other games. Do you know how they're played as? Agile humans with pointy ears and an extra digit in the "age" section of their character sheet.

Aye, there's the rub. 'Demihumans' in fantasy games are almost always depicted as humans with a bonus to one or two attributes, and personalities that revolve around one human personality trait. Overcoming that unfortunate 'tradition' would indeed pose a challenge...

40k is a somewhat intolerant setting for other races...

And the award for Understatement of the Year goes to...

But the understatement makes it funnier :3

The Imperial Handbook is a much better book than Into the Storm, and the new one should follow its footsteps.

Can't really say I agree with this.

What I meant is that the IH provided more character generation options, it provided alternate careers, which ItS did too. But where ItS lost it's focus was in trying to cover too much ground, but especially with the Xenos rules, while IH kept it simpler, 1 new career, new rules for skills, but most importanlty with gear. While ItS is a great book and is a must buy for RT players, compared to the wonderful gear selection for all kinds of PCs and NPCs, organized by type of world and bringing variety.

So to summarize, ItS is great and a must have, but viewed 1 on 1 with IH as the first supplement for a line, it lacks focus.

Maybe closer to my experience, but even this I cannot agree with.

I don't feel that the IH was particularly well organized, but the absolute killer was the lack of indexing. I know it seems like a minor complaint, but in all seriousness, it has meant that I read the IH and then stuffed it on a shelf. I can't access the information therein during play - lack of indexing means you have to search for things.

Yes, the pdf probably made this simpler, but for a paper publication, it's a doorstop for all the use I had of it.

Furthermore, I consider the "companion books" (IH, ItS, and that lot) to be spill over from the core book, cut due to page count or whatever. So the focus aspect is really secondary to me.

Finally there's the one career introduced in IH. I'm sorry, but it was a mess. It really was. The revision in BoM was long overdue. Ofcourse, that version was probably not terribly well balanced, but I really don't see how it could have been and still stay true to the source material. It wasn't the revision I was hoping for, but almost anything would be better than the mess in IH.

Yeah, the lack of a good index harmed it, but I loved the weapons table in the back

Whether or not you like the Sororitas career (I personally find it hard to play with most groups), I do like the tighter focus on what the book covers. It is a character expansion book, homeworlds and backgrounds, new alt ranks and gear for every kind of PC and common locations they find themselves in, as well as expansions on skills.

While ItS tried to cover too much it felt like in comparison, doing everything the IH did, then more, new ship parts, new powers, new vehicle rules, etc. And that is before the well over 30 pages on xenos careers, generation, equipment, etc.

Don't get me wrong, RT is a great game for xenos to actually work with the players, the issue is more they would be better served by an earlier "Radical's Handbook" of RT, not as useful a book for all, very useful for some.

Since so many of the weapons had this little detail or that, those tables in the back would've been about 3-4 times more useful if they had included a simple page reference, IMAO.

As for the sororitas, I'm not sure they should ever have been a PC career.

..and I actually felt that ItS was more structured. Weapons were with weapons, not spread all over. Character creation options were presented and integrated with the core book. The chapter on alternate careers could've been re-organized, with the Xenos being confined to their own chapter, but in general I didn't have to look through (almost) every chapter to find a peice of poorly remembered equipment. I just need to know that it's not scaled for ships, nor is it a vehicle in itself - et viola!

A matter of taste I suppose. But the lack of an index has really made it almost useless to me.

I can understand that, I would have love an Index too. And I have to say I disagree, but only because I liked "My players are going to be in X kind of situation, here is a list of weapons, items and fluff bits that work for the area you are in. But that approach would have been better if, like you said, had an index. I suppose I love the details and fluff as much as the new weapons and ItS felt a bit anemic in that regard, granted, it had more to cover, players wanted more homeworlds/origin path, ship hulls and components and backgrounds, ship roles, new vehicle rules, etc.

The issue is that the xenos take up so much room in a book that already is forced to spread it's focus wider than the IH ever did. And xenos rules should have been shifted over to the RH of the RT line, Hostile Acquisitions (which I think should have come out sooner).

Agreed!

I can't see too many scenarios for acolytes working with xenos though. Eldar and Tau, possibly Kroot (for cash), and while the Eldar may not be humanity's friend, they also aren't all that interested, so besides the Inquisitor level, encounters seem rarer. Dark Eldar may be more amiable, but that said, also more amiable to sticking hooks into Acolytes. Tau are trying to expand and the Imperium is opposing them, so only a radical Inquisitor would even want to talk to them Kroot are mercenaries more, but again, only an Inquisitor could really get away with hiring them (and none of this is for certain). While some "no choice" working together scenarios could happen (working with them to find a genestealer cult? stop daemonhost summoning) but doubt any long term alliances, rather having no choice. In that case a player wanting to be a xenos would just use a pre-rolled character or the GM would rather just NPC it.

Does anyone else have ideas?

I think that really depends on how a campaign is being run. Campaigns are not all strictly run according to canon information. Creativity and imagination can create some pretty interesting and unique settings.

Oh, always, but a key issue is, you can't write the books to support everyone, but to support as many playstyles as they can without diluting focus too much.

1) More homeworld / background / role options. The lack of "Imperial World" in the core rules seems almost criminal, in that to be from a low-population high-tech world (of which there are probably more of then shrine worlds and forge worlds put together), you have to homebrew it. But more fun bits to put things together at creation - particularly to help flesh out the dearth of XX / XX / Desperados that people seem to say are popping up.

2) Radical Gear. Not a huge fan of playable xenos, but their gear? Absolutely. You want their power? Sure. Trade off is that the more traditionalist side of your own Inquisition may be out for your head. Totally worth having a Harlequinn's Kiss. Just what ever you do -don't- roll a jam.

3) Effective Combat talents for Skill-Based characters. In the vein of Weapon Tech and Constant Vigilance. If you're creating a more social character, such as a Seeker, or Sage, or whatever, you're never going to be as good as the assassin or warrior, but it'd be nice to have some more mechanical edges for fighting smart.

4) More narrative / support psyker abilities. I'm gonna have to take this on word from our psyker player, but when we converted from DH1 to DH2 it sounds like he had very little choice but to rework himself into a glass cannon, since that was the only part of his power pool that translated.

5) More Elite Advances. Similar vein to #1, but I love that stuff. Sororitas, Temple Assassins, IG Specialists, Fate Eaters, Discordants, all that at more.

1) More homeworld / background / role options. The lack of "Imperial World" in the core rules seems almost criminal, in that to be from a low-population high-tech world (of which there are probably more of then shrine worlds and forge worlds put together), you have to homebrew it. But more fun bits to put things together at creation - particularly to help flesh out the dearth of XX / XX / Desperados that people seem to say are popping up.

2) Radical Gear. Not a huge fan of playable xenos, but their gear? Absolutely. You want their power? Sure. Trade off is that the more traditionalist side of your own Inquisition may be out for your head. Totally worth having a Harlequinn's Kiss. Just what ever you do -don't- roll a jam.

3) Effective Combat talents for Skill-Based characters. In the vein of Weapon Tech and Constant Vigilance. If you're creating a more social character, such as a Seeker, or Sage, or whatever, you're never going to be as good as the assassin or warrior, but it'd be nice to have some more mechanical edges for fighting smart.

4) More narrative / support psyker abilities. I'm gonna have to take this on word from our psyker player, but when we converted from DH1 to DH2 it sounds like he had very little choice but to rework himself into a glass cannon, since that was the only part of his power pool that translated.

5) More Elite Advances. Similar vein to #1, but I love that stuff. Sororitas, Temple Assassins, IG Specialists, Fate Eaters, Discordants, all that at more.

So, when can I have this?

I'd like to see them divvied up by Ordo:

The Enemy Within:

- Ordo Hereticus Specialities (mostly Arbites, Sororitas, Priests)

- New Reinforcements

- Religion, Investigation, Various cult-type threats, various "normal" criminals*

- Rules for maintaining your own minions/acolytes doing fiendish things on your behalf

- Inquisitorial Radicals/Inquisition Wars

The Enemy Without:

- Ordo Xenos specialities (Mostly Adepts, Guardsmen, Techpriests)

- Sanctioned alien allies (Eldar, Whatever Krashrak was, Kroot, etc)

- Reinforcements

- Large-scale (by DH scale!) combat

- Xenotech

- Adversaries

The Enemy Beyond

- Ordo Malleus specialities (Mostly Psykers and Priests)

- Grey Knight reinforcements

- Sorcery and bound daemonhosts (daemonhost/daemonvessel player option?)

- 101 ways to pass the time when the gellar field fails

- Big rituals, warp incursions, dark pacts, etc.

* Tentacles, daemons, and aliens aside, I still think the Kasiballica are one of the most bad-ass things in DH1. It's nice to have actual competent human criminals now and again!

I'd like to see them divvied up by Ordo:

The Enemy Within:

- Ordo Hereticus Specialities (mostly Arbites, Sororitas, Priests)

- New Reinforcements

- Religion, Investigation, Various cult-type threats, various "normal" criminals*

- Rules for maintaining your own minions/acolytes doing fiendish things on your behalf

- Inquisitorial Radicals/Inquisition Wars

The Enemy Without:

- Ordo Xenos specialities (Mostly Adepts, Guardsmen, Techpriests)

- Sanctioned alien allies (Eldar, Whatever Krashrak was, Kroot, etc)

- Reinforcements

- Large-scale (by DH scale!) combat

- Xenotech

- Adversaries

The Enemy Beyond

- Ordo Malleus specialities (Mostly Psykers and Priests)

- Grey Knight reinforcements

- Sorcery and bound daemonhosts (daemonhost/daemonvessel player option?)

- 101 ways to pass the time when the gellar field fails

- Big rituals, warp incursions, dark pacts, etc.

* Tentacles, daemons, and aliens aside, I still think the Kasiballica are one of the most bad-ass things in DH1. It's nice to have actual competent human criminals now and again!

That's what I meant by Hereticus, Xenos and Malleus. ^^

But the suggestions about the content of each book looks great!

Particularly the one about "101 ways to pass the time when the gellar field fails" !

This indeed could be a good way to replace the inquisitors handbook by 3 big ordo tomes.

Each one should have around 250 pages though, similar to the IH and Radicals Handbook.

This indeed could be a good way to replace the inquisitors handbook by 3 big ordo tomes.

Each one should have around 250 pages though, similar to the IH and Radicals Handbook.

Or even more similar to the four tomes of Chaos in BC. (Where power creep is apparently highly sought after! )

I think a general expansion sourcebook that EVERYONE benefits from as the first release is best, then go into the three Ordos

Yeah, I'd rather not have to be waiting as long as a year for a book that's useful for my campaign.

I think a general expansion sourcebook that EVERYONE benefits from as the first release is best, then go into the three Ordos

I disagree on that.

Even if ordo "tomes" would have a spcial topic/focus each, the stuff tney include if done right, would be useful for anyone.