1 hour ago, syrath said:A bit of an old thread to bring back up , however just to clarify using the influence control upgrade along with scathing tirade is confirmed as not being possible. When you are using Scathing Tirade its an action (sometimes a maneuever) but when using a combined force check it is also an action. So you cannot do both, so it will always be your coercion pool with no force dice.
Confirmed by a developer post or Q&A? Then you should post a link to it.
24 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:Confirmed by a developer post or Q&A? Then you should post a link to it.
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/?page=11
Does that mean that ALL talents requiring an action, that use a specific skill check, are exempt from the benefits of being a force user?
I only ask as that one Q&A (which seems like the 'generally' was meant toward using the Force Power on its own in addition to the Talent, instead of augmenting the roll for the talent) means a lot of control upgrades are not as useful as we once thought.
Edited by Randy G3 hours ago, Randy G said:Does that mean that ALL talents requiring an action, that use a specific skill check, are exempt from the benefits of being a force user?
I only ask as that one Q&A (which seems like the 'generally' was meant toward using the Force Power on its own in addition to the Talent, instead of augmenting the roll for the talent) means a lot of control upgrades are not as useful as we once thought.
Yes, any talent that calls for a skill check cannot benefit from a combined check unless the talent itzelf calls for it. Makes piloting less fun for a force user , also the Peacekeeper gets a bit of a let down. It does even the play a little bit for non FS players using talents though as their FS equivalents who had equal ranks had the potential to be significantly better at certain talents like Field Commander etc. So it does make sense, when I found this out I did have a look at the talents it hit and there are a lot lewss than I originally thought, as many were already combined checks (Terrify for example , which you couldn't use influence-control anyway).
This dev ruling is why house-rules exist.
The Force aids me in using this skill! Except when I'm using it for the very core application of my character concept...
Yeah, this is really stupid.
1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:The Force aids me in using this skill! Except when I'm using it for the very core application of my character concept...
Yeah, this is really stupid.
I originally thought the same thing, until I looked at a few things,
1/ This affects relatively few talents and those that do can be thrown significantly out of balance by allowing you to add force dice , example field commander etc
2/ as a result the balance between a FS and a non FS when it comes down to the talents is purely down to who has the most skill. This balances out the level between the two. It also shows there is a difference to actively using the force to boost a skill and simply being an always on ability.
3/ even in the example of scathing tirade the force sensitive has an alternative, example take influence with the 3 magnitude, 3 range and strength upgradd can use the basic power with 6 force pips to cause - 12 strain dmg to 1 engaged opponent or 10 to 4 opponents , or 8 to 4 opponents out to long range etc. They dont need to pump coercion skill to do so, Scathing Tirade with 6 willpower and 5 coercion and assuming double results of success and advantage on every roll, and nothing on the negative dice will get6 success and 6 advantage allowing them to do 7 strain dmg to 1 and 1 strain to 5 others out ot short range, or 2 dmg to 6 opponents or anything in between. If you allow force dice on this it significantly allows the force sensitive a lot more flexibilty over a non FS using it esp as they can control how many success and advantage they get.
4/ It is covered in the rules as well , as long as you take the time to read about combined force checks and using the force which clearly says unless otherwise specified using the force takes an action, although you could argue that these enhance type abilities does specify" when you make a check" . The clmbined check rules also say that they are used in " standard" checks, which seems to indicate that talent called checks are not standard, and only when you use your action to make a coercion check and not a scathing tirade action, does it apply.
Does it break the game either way, it certainly doesnt IMO but if you wanted to apply it to scathing tirade, the force user has a better option with the basic influence power. Firstly the shade of pips doesnt matter at all, you dont need to increase coercion and for the same xp you can get a lot of influence upgrades, you can direct the damage much easier than with tirade, with tirade if you rolled 10 success with only 2 targets 8 successes are wasted, and finally to do significant damage to one target needs you to roll specifically low success and high advantage, which, even with the highest coercion skill is far from guaranteed(with an average 3 advantage per roll). The flip side for the force user is that you need significant FR investment to be consistent with it, so it balances out.
1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:The Force aids me in using this skill! Except when I'm using it for the very core application of my character concept...
Yeah, this is really stupid.
Also if this is your charcter concept then I would speak to your GM and if he rules with the devs, he should allow you to rework the concept. FWIW this was also originally a part of the concept for my Warden which was designed to cause as much strain damage as possible, with the warden though you get the added bonus of no escape and with influence, I will say that the Control upgrade is OP when you have options like No Escape. The Warden also gets other significant bonuses from a high coercion skill.
Edited by syrath2 hours ago, syrath said:Firstly the shade of pips doesnt matter at all, ....
What do you mean by "the shade of the pips doesnt matter"?
40 minutes ago, Fringer said:What do you mean by "the shade of the pips doesnt matter"?
When using influence basic power the shade of pips used arent limited by influence's special rule. It can be argued (although not by me) that using coercion falls under the special rule and requires you to have used Dark Side pips, thereby limiting influence on scathing tirade checks to either Dark Siders or forcing light siders to flip a DP each time they want to use it for Scathing Tirade. Influence 's basic power isnt subject to that rule as no emotion is being swayed either by the force or the skill used.
I only mention this as I appear to be in the minority in believing that the control upgrade that is worded like enhance also doesnt get affected by the special rule since the force isnt being used to alter the mind state of your target, in fact the force is acting on the user and making his skill better, as noted though im definitely in the minority here and most people believe that using it for coercion requires you to use dark side pips, so I felt it only fair to represent that view point also.
Edit Apologies to anyone who takes offense at my last few posts where I use male pronouns, I should be using generic /slaps self on wrist
Edited by syrath54 minutes ago, syrath said:When using influence basic power the shade of pips used arent limited by influence's special rule.
Ah, OK. I agree.
1 hour ago, syrath said:It can be argued (although not by me) that using coercion falls under the special rule and requires you to have used Dark Side pips, thereby limiting influence on scathing tirade checks to either Dark Siders or forcing light siders to flip a DP each time they want to use it for Scathing Tirade. Influence 's basic power isnt subject to that rule as no emotion is being swayed either by the force or the skill used.
I only mention this as I appear to be in the minority in believing that the control upgrade that is worded like enhance also doesnt get affected by the special rule since the force isnt being used to alter the mind state of your target, in fact the force is acting on the user and making his skill better, as noted though im definitely in the minority here and most people believe that using it for coercion requires you to use dark side pips, so I felt it only fair to represent that view point also.
Edit Apologies to anyone who takes offense at my last few posts where I use male pronouns, I should be using generic /slaps self on wrist
Well, I have no way of telling whether you are in the minority, but I think you are right.
I have studied this confusingly written power very carefully and I am now pretty sure that the "Special Rule" (although they make a big thing of it), only applies to the "Mind Trick" Upgrade .
As you say, this is the only usage of the power that actually controls or puts thoughts into minds. And the special rule only applies "when guiding and shaping thoughts".
On the other hand:
The rules explicitly say that the Basic Power " does not allows the force user to guide or shape the thoughts of others" .
And:
The other control upgrade (which I call the "Social Enhancement" Upgrade ), uses the force to enhance social Skills ( Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership and Negotiatio n) in the same way the Enhance power improves Athletics, Coordination, Resilience, Brawl and Piloting. The main reason for this understanding is because the wording of the upgrade is IDENTICAL to the wording used in the all of Enhance power Upgrades (further reasons are given early in this thread).
Which basically means that the Social Enhancement Upgrade effects the user's ability, not the adversaries mind (i.e. you really become better at these Skills when using the force)! As a result only light-side pips apply.
However, if you do apply the Special Rule to the Social Enhancement Upgrade , then it is not as simple as Coercion and Deception = Dark Side. Because, for example, Deception may require instilling peaceful thoughts , and Negotiation may involve appealing to greed . In other words, if you play it like that, then whether dark or light pips are required will depend on what you say to your opponent(s)!
But, as I said above, I do not understand this type of usage of the force as " guiding and shaping thoughts".
1 hour ago, Fringer said:Ah, OK. I agree.
Well, I have no way of telling whether you are in the minority, but I think you are right.
I have studied this confusingly written power very carefully and I am now pretty sure that the "Special Rule" (although they make a big thing of it), only applies to the "Mind Trick" Upgrade .
As you say, this is the only usage of the power that actually controls or puts thoughts into minds. And the special rule only applies "when guiding and shaping thoughts".
On the other hand:
The rules explicitly say that the Basic Power " does not allows the force user to guide or shape the thoughts of others" .
And:
The other control upgrade (which I call the "Social Enhancement" Upgrade ), uses the force to enhance social Skills ( Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership and Negotiatio n) in the same way the Enhance power improves Athletics, Coordination, Resilience, Brawl and Piloting. The main reason for this understanding is because the wording of the upgrade is IDENTICAL to the wording used in the all of Enhance power Upgrades (further reasons are given early in this thread).
Which basically means that the Social Enhancement Upgrade effects the user's ability, not the adversaries mind (i.e. you really become better at these Skills when using the force)! As a result only light-side pips apply.
However, if you do apply the Special Rule to the Social Enhancement Upgrade , then it is not as simple as Coercion and Deception = Dark Side. Because, for example, Deception may require instilling peaceful thoughts , and Negotiation may involve appealing to greed . In other words, if you play it like that, then whether dark or light pips are required will depend on what you say to your opponent(s)!
But, as I said above, I do not understand this type of usage of the force as " guiding and shaping thoughts".
I went through this argument a long time ago on the F&D forum, a significant number of people disagree on the point of using the control upgrade to enhance calling that coercion/deception require dark side pips with charm /negotiation requiring light side pips, this includes the 3 hosts of the order 66 podcast, very few people agreed with me, leading me to believe that me and you are in the minority here. One of the best examples would be the RotS "Not for a Jedi" scene , perfect example of using DS points on acharm check.
16 minutes ago, syrath said:I went through this argument a long time ago on the F&D forum, a significant number of people disagree on the point of using the control upgrade to enhance calling that coercion/deception require dark side pips with charm /negotiation requiring light side pips, this includes the 3 hosts of the order 66 podcast, very few people agreed with me, leading me to believe that me and you are in the minority here. One of the best examples would be the RotS "Not for a Jedi" scene , perfect example of using DS points on acharm check.
But, if this is the case, then I cannot imagine why this simple rule: " coercion/deception = dark side and charm/negotiation = light side" is not mentioned in the rules. They could have easily added it to the description of the ( Social Enhancement) Upgrade if that was originally intended by the devs.
They simply cannot assume that players would derive this simple rule from the " Special Rule" ( "When guiding and shaping thoughts, only [dark-side pip] may be used to generate negative emotions ... Only [light-side pip] may be used to generate positive emotions ...").
How do you get " coercion/deception = dark side and charm/negotiation = light side" out of this vague rule about negative and positive emotions?!
So at best, the devs left it vague on purpose , and so if at all, the GM must decide on a case-by-case basis: if the GM thinks that whatever you are doing is going to result in dark-side type emotions, then he could require that you use dark side pips.
Certainly only the GM can determine this because, if the force user is not directly causing the thoughts and emotions (like when using the mind trick), then only the GM really knows what thoughts and emotions the user's activities (be it Coercion, Negotiation, or whatever) are causing!
6 hours ago, Fringer said:Ah, OK. I agree.
Well, I have no way of telling whether you are in the minority, but I think you are right.
I have studied this confusingly written power very carefully and I am now pretty sure that the "Special Rule" (although they make a big thing of it), only applies to the "Mind Trick" Upgrade .
As you say, this is the only usage of the power that actually controls or puts thoughts into minds. And the special rule only applies "when guiding and shaping thoughts".
On the other hand:
The rules explicitly say that the Basic Power " does not allows the force user to guide or shape the thoughts of others" .
And:
The other control upgrade (which I call the "Social Enhancement" Upgrade ), uses the force to enhance social Skills ( Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership and Negotiatio n) in the same way the Enhance power improves Athletics, Coordination, Resilience, Brawl and Piloting. The main reason for this understanding is because the wording of the upgrade is IDENTICAL to the wording used in the all of Enhance power Upgrades (further reasons are given early in this thread).
Which basically means that the Social Enhancement Upgrade effects the user's ability, not the adversaries mind (i.e. you really become better at these Skills when using the force)! As a result only light-side pips apply.
However, if you do apply the Special Rule to the Social Enhancement Upgrade , then it is not as simple as Coercion and Deception = Dark Side. Because, for example, Deception may require instilling peaceful thoughts , and Negotiation may involve appealing to greed . In other words, if you play it like that, then whether dark or light pips are required will depend on what you say to your opponent(s)!
But, as I said above, I do not understand this type of usage of the force as " guiding and shaping thoughts".
I have to disagree with you on the "Social checks" upgrade. The way I read the power, and understand it from the canon, is that it does indeed affect the minds of the targets to make them more agreeable to your words, rather than enhancing your natural ability, and thus, does not work against those who are immune to mind affecting powers . Thus, No use of Influence will work on droids, for example.
3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:I have to disagree with you on the "Social checks" upgrade. The way I read the power, and understand it from the canon, is that it does indeed affect the minds of the targets to make them more agreeable to your words, rather than enhancing your natural ability, and thus, does not work against those who are immune to mind affecting powers . Thus, No use of Influence will work on droids, for example.
OK, but then it should be limited in range, right? Or should the force user be able to affect minds at any range without extra cost?
And what about the number of targets? Should the user be allowed to affect 1000's of people (for example giving a speech to the Senate) also without extra cost?
2 hours ago, Fringer said:But, if this is the case, then I cannot imagine why this simple rule: " coercion/deception = dark side and charm/negotiation = light side" is not mentioned in the rules. They could have easily added it to the description of the ( Social Enhancement) Upgrade if that was originally intended by the devs.
They simply cannot assume that players would derive this simple rule from the " Special Rule" ( "When guiding and shaping thoughts, only [dark-side pip] may be used to generate negative emotions ... Only [light-side pip] may be used to generate positive emotions ...").
How do you get " coercion/deception = dark side and charm/negotiation = light side" out of this vague rule about negative and positive emotions?!
So at best, the devs left it vague on purpose , and so if at all, the GM must decide on a case-by-case basis: if the GM thinks that whatever you are doing is going to result in dark-side type emotions, then he could require that you use dark side pips.
Certainly only the GM can determine this because, if the force user is not directly causing the thoughts and emotions (like when using the mind trick), then only the GM really knows what thoughts and emotions the user's activities (be it Coercion, Negotiation, or whatever) are causing!
As noted I agree with you Im just pointing out we are in the minority, doesnt mean the majority is right, but it does mean it is at the very least for many a valid interpretation of the rules. I also have a lot of respect for the order66 podcasters and also for many of the people who argued with me.
My own argument went along the lines of influence can be used to cause fear in an opponent you can do this directly using the influence power to change how the person feels. The force is then fuelling the negative emotions of your target and definitely needs darkside points.
With the control upgrade that isnt the mind trick you arent using the force to affect anyone but yourself, as pointed out it is using it to enhance your own skill in the appropriate skill and make your arguments more cohesive and you more charismatic. Eagles splendor is the perfect way to describe this. You then use your own arguments / threats etc to change the mind of the opponent. The intent is indeed the same however the force itself was only used to boost you. If the intent is to coerce the opponent then this falls under using fear and would and should incur conflict regardless of how it is done, but it shouldn't require dark side pips any more than using enhance:brawl would need darkside pips because you intend to harm someone.
2 minutes ago, Fringer said:OK, but then it should be limited in range, right? Or should the force user be able to affect minds at any range without extra cost?
And what about the number of targets? Should the user be allowed to affect 1000's of people (for example giving a speech to the Senate) also without extra cost?
I would say it is just as limited as the emotional control upgrade.
7 minutes ago, syrath said:As noted I agree with you Im just pointing out we are in the minority, doesnt mean the majority is right, but it does mean it is at the very least for many a valid interpretation of the rules. I also have a lot of respect for the order66 podcasters and also for many of the people who argued with me.
My own argument went along the lines of influence can be used to cause fear in an opponent you can do this directly using the influence power to change how the person feels. The force is then fuelling the negative emotions of your target and definitely needs darkside points.
With the control upgrade that isnt the mind trick you arent using the force to affect anyone but yourself, as pointed out it is using it to enhance your own skill in the appropriate skill and make your arguments more cohesive and you more charismatic. Eagles splendor is the perfect way to describe this. You then use your own arguments / threats etc to change the mind of the opponent. The intent is indeed the same however the force itself was only used to boost you. If the intent is to coerce the opponent then this falls under using fear and would and should incur conflict regardless of how it is done, but it shouldn't require dark side pips any more than using enhance:brawl would need darkside pips because you intend to harm someone.
My thoughts exactly. Also with regard to the Conflict that you should get for threatening bad things during a coercion. And, yes, we use light-side pips even when harming someone!
15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:I have to disagree with you on the "Social checks" upgrade. The way I read the power, and understand it from the canon, is that it does indeed affect the minds of the targets to make them more agreeable to your words, rather than enhancing your natural ability, and thus, does not work against those who are immune to mind affecting powers . Thus, No use of Influence will work on droids, for example.
Mechanical being : Droids cannot become force sensitive , nor acquire a Force Rating any means. Droids cannot use Force Powers, and also cannot be affected by mind-altering force powers.
Full text for ths control upgrade in question.
The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and Charisma via the Force.
The following words are exactly like enhance, but at no point does it say that you are altering the thoughts or mind of your opponent. Control upgrades are described as providing an alterntive way of usiǹg the power so for influence we have
1/ Basic power -cause strain on mind of opponent this affecta the oppoents mind, so droids are immune
2/ Control upgrade - Mind trick - makes opponent believe something that he is being told, this affects the opponents mind, droids are immune , is also subject to opposed discipline checks when used on key NPC or PCs
3/ Control upgrade - improves your ability to use social checks, doesnt affect opponents mind (your enhanced skill with charm/coercion etc. does). Therefore droids arent immune and it can be used on groups and doesnt require you to do an opposed discipline check to land. Doesnt allow opposed checks to stop the force ability but can require an opposed social check.
This last part throws up a few questions that I submitted on the F&D support , months ago and had no answer. Example given that you cannot use influence:control to boost your coercion check when using scathing tirade then can you use it when using opposed checks, can you use it during opposed checks when you arent making the check yourself etc.
Ive had no answer to this to date. I would also like to know exactly which rule stops you using the enhance type force abilities during other talents. I can find two potential that work
9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:I would say it is just as limited as the emotional control upgrade.
OK, so you are saying the Range and Magnitude upgrades apply to the " Social Enhancement", just like they apply to the "Mind Trick" upgrade, and the Basic Power.
Lets look at an example:
Assume I a Force Rating of 3 and, have one Influence Range upgrade and all the Influence Magnitude upgrades .
I am standing at medium range from a group of 10 opponents that I want to charm. I roll a Charm check with 3 Force Dice, and get 6 light-side pips (i.e. the maximum).
Now I spend 2 pips on getting my range from Engaged to Medium, and 3 pips to add 9 targets to the base of 1 target. Left over is 1 pip which I can add as a success to the roll.
My question is: is this how you play it at your table?
Because, I really do not think that this is what was intended.
For example, look at the statement at the top of page 295 of FaD : "When upgrading this power, the user can choose whether to influence and sway large crowds of people with his abilities , or to directly modify the thoughts or emotions of others."
So the force power description speaks of influencing large crowds. But the the way you are playing it limits you to a maximum number of targets between 10 and 20, even with a good roll and a fantastic Force Rating! This is simply not a large crowd in my opinion.
Secondly, the "or" in the statement leads me to believe that the text on either side of the "or" is refering to the 2 different upgrades that you may choose, as follows:
So the Mind Trick directly modifies thoughts and emotions , which implies that the Social Enhancement Upgrade does not directly modify thoughts and emotions. Instead, you influence and sway crowds with your abilities (i.e. your Skills) .
Which means the " Social Enhancement" Upgrade enhances your Skill, and does not directly effect an opponent . So we have, two very different powers that work in very different ways.
Influence, by its very nature is a mind affecting power, it always has been, even before FFG got the license. Also, I just re-read the Influence power, and it's two upgrades, and nowhere does it say that the social upgrade affects large crowds. the opening text descriptions you refer to are examples of what a powerful Force user could do with the power as a whole, and the dangers involved. In fact, the specific examples given, (calming, or riling up a crowd) are examples of the "mind trick" power to affect the emotions of a large number of people. Think of the Social Checks upgrade as akin to the mesmerizing effect of the Force making the targets more suggestible to your arguments.
25 minutes ago, syrath said:Mechanical being : Droids cannot become force sensitive , nor acquire a Force Rating any means. Droids cannot use Force Powers, and also cannot be affected by mind-altering force powers.
Full text for ths control upgrade in question.
The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and Charisma via the Force.
The following words are exactly like enhance, but at no point does it say that you are altering the thoughts or mind of your opponent. Control upgrades are described as providing an alterntive way of usiǹg the power so for influence we have
1/ Basic power -cause strain on mind of opponent this affecta the oppoents mind, so droids are immune
2/ Control upgrade - Mind trick - makes opponent believe something that he is being told, this affects the opponents mind, droids are immune , is also subject to opposed discipline checks when used on key NPC or PCs
3/ Control upgrade - improves your ability to use social checks, doesnt affect opponents mind (your enhanced skill with charm/coercion etc. does). Therefore droids arent immune and it can be used on groups and doesnt require you to do an opposed discipline check to land. Doesnt allow opposed checks to stop the force ability but can require an opposed social check.
This last part throws up a few questions that I submitted on the F&D support , months ago and had no answer. Example given that you cannot use influence:control to boost your coercion check when using scathing tirade then can you use it when using opposed checks, can you use it during opposed checks when you arent making the check yourself etc.
Ive had no answer to this to date. I would also like to know exactly which rule stops you using the enhance type force abilities during other talents. I can find two potential that work
It would be great if we could here from the devs on this. But without any "higher" input I think your reading of the rules (1/, 2/ and 3/ above) is the only way to understand it as written.
And, as long as we have no other answer from the devs on the questions you ask here, I think we have to assume that Force Dice may be added to any Coercion/Charm/Deception/Leadership/Negotiatio n Check because the Control Upgrade says: " When making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation check, the Force user may roll an Influence Power check as part of his dice pool ". So it is not obvious that there is any exception to this rule.
Why should I speculate on what is an Action and what not in order to figure out whether the force dice are allowed or not?
It says "add to the pool", so I add to the pool...
However, if the check is an apposed check, and you are in the "defensive" position (i.e. you are not making the roll), then I see no way to add the force dice. So if someone is doing an apposed Charm check against you I see no way in which the force dice (which would be in the pool if you did the check), can come into play.
The problem with that is that droids, and certain other species (such as Hutts) are immune to Influence . Period. Therefore, no upgrade of that power can work, against them, including the Social Checks upgrade . That's what it means to be completely immune to mind-effecting powers. There is no exception. No version of the Influence power, in any iteration of the game, has ever worked on Droids.
3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:any iteration of the game
There's only been the one.
There were other SW RPGs before this, but they're completely irrelevant to a discussion of this game's rules.
3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:There's only been the one.
There were other SW RPGs before this, but they're completely irrelevant to a discussion of this game's rules.
Not true. They re very relevant because of the precedents the've set, as well as what canon (both old and new) established.