12 hours ago, Jabberwocki said:

Tramps, you have misunderstood the mechanics!

The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade does not boost the opposed Discipline check.

To succeed using this aspect of the power you have to succeed at the opposed Discipline check and roll at least one pip in order to activate the power.

On the other hand, the Social Upgrade allows you to add Successes and Advantages to the result if the Social Skill check, in the same way that the Enhance powers work. This means the Social Upgrade can work, even if you roll no pips, and do not use the force at all!

The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade requires that both work , the basic Discipline check must succeed, and you must use the force.

This is a fundamentally difference in mechanics shows that the difference is much more than just the skill involved. It also gives the usage of the 2 aspects of Influence a complete different "feeling". The player is aware of using the force to directly influence his target when using the Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade.

When using the Social Check Upgrade, the player has the distinct feeling that he is indirectly influencing his opponent(s), because he is using the force to give his natural ability a boost, which may or may not be necessary to succeed.

I disagree. In either case, the character is still manipulating the target's mind directly . The point with the Social check upgrade is if you don't get the pips, the target isn't enthralled by the Force and can thus, resist your social check much easier.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. In either case, the character is still manipulating the target's mind directly . The point with the Social check upgrade is if you don't get the pips, the target isn't enthralled by the Force and can thus, resist your social check much easier.

"You will use bold font for emphasis and debate people in this thread. "

So did I give you a command a couple posts ago? Or was it a prediction?

12 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. In either case, the character is still manipulating the target's mind directly . The point with the Social check upgrade is if you don't get the pips, the target isn't enthralled by the Force and can thus, resist your social check much easier.

You're making this up as you go along, aren't you...?

But seriously, I have never heard of such a rule.

As far as I know, if you roll force dice, you are using the force, no matter whether you use the pips generated or not! In other words, you cannot say, if you only roll black pips, that you did not use the force (just because you failed)!

Oh crap, this is gonna loop back into that argument about his PC never using dark side pips. :-D

19 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. In either case, the character is still manipulating the target's mind directly . The point with the Social check upgrade is if you don't get the pips, the target isn't enthralled by the Force and can thus, resist your social check much easier.

You always get pips when rolling a force die. The PC then chooses whether to use them or not. A light-side user may still choose to use the dark-side if they feel compelled to.

So the target didn't resist the force, instead the user chose not to use it, despite feeling the seductive embrace of the dark-side.

Except that you can't apply them to targets who are immune to the power, such as droids . Thus, no matter what you rolled on the FD, those bonuses can't apply to that particular target.

Unless of course you are upgrading your own ability with the force and not attempting to use the other part of the power to manipulate the minds of others. But that's pretty obvious.

I think we have to agree to disagree.

At my table, the social upgrade enhances the user and doesn't affect the target directly (meaning a droid could be influenced indirectly thru the words and actions of the force user that is being influenced by the force) just as the description implies.

Your table, all aspects of force use for that power (including the social control upgrade) directly affects the target not the force user.

7 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

Unless of course you are upgrading your own ability with the force and not attempting to use the other part of the power to manipulate the minds of others. But that's pretty obvious.

No. Influence always manipulates the minds of others. Hence the name Influence , not Enhance social skills. The power influences the minds of others. That is what it does. That is all it does.

Just now, Randy G said:

I think we have to agree to disagree.

At my table, the social upgrade enhances the user and doesn't affect the target directly (meaning a droid could be influenced indirectly thru the words and actions of the force user that is being influenced by the force) just as the description implies.

Your table, all aspects of force use for that power (including the social control upgrade) directly affects the target not the force user.

You cannot use Influence at all against Droids. No matter the upgrade used .

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You cannot use Influence at all against Droids. No matter the upgrade used .

And that is where you are mistaken.

YOU cannot at your table.

But I can at my table.

45 minutes ago, Randy G said:

And that is where you are mistaken.

YOU cannot at your table.

But I can at my table.

And I'm pretty sure almost everyone reads the RAW, RAI, and RAF the same way you and I do. Those that believe any use of influence is affecting someone else spear to be in the minority. A very vocal and stubborn minority, but a minority none the less.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that you can't apply them to targets who are immune to the power, such as droids . Thus, no matter what you rolled on the FD, those bonuses can't apply to that particular target.

Are you going to answer my question from earlier`? To quote myself:

Quote

"You will use bold font for emphasis and debate people in this thread. "

So did I give you a command a couple posts ago? Or was it a prediction?

23 hours ago, Randy G said:

23 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You cannot use Influence at all against Droids. No matter the upgrade used .

And that is where you are mistaken.

YOU cannot at your table.

But I can at my table.

Oops, failed Discipline check on that attempted mind trick... LOL

On 6/9/2017 at 8:55 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that you can't apply them to targets who are immune to the power, such as droids . Thus, no matter what you rolled on the FD, those bonuses can't apply to that particular target.

You now, Tramps, you can repeat this as much as you like, it is not going to make it correct.

As @Ahrimon says:

23 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

Those that believe any use of influence is affecting someone else spear to be in the minority. A very vocal and stubborn minority, but a minority none the less.

And that would appear to be a minority of one!

In this thread we have presented good arguments and countered every objection you have had, now I have to agree with @Randy G :

On 6/9/2017 at 10:33 PM, Randy G said:

YOU cannot at your table.

But I can at my table.

And I am glad (sorry to say) that I am not at your table, because your interpretation of the rules, in this case, is really worse than incorrect, it is a fun killer!

By muddying the Influence upgrades you are robbing your players of using "the jedi mind trick" as we know it from the movies. And, you are forcing characters that want to be "grey force users" to choose between becoming a jedi, or not using Influence at all!

It is really quite sad...

6 hours ago, Jabberwocki said:

You now, Tramps, you can repeat this as much as you like, it is not going to make it correct.

As @Ahrimon says:

And that would appear to be a minority of one!

In this thread we have presented good arguments and countered every objection you have had, now I have to agree with @Randy G :

And I am glad (sorry to say) that I am not at your table, because your interpretation of the rules, in this case, is really worse than incorrect, it is a fun killer!

By muddying the Influence upgrades you are robbing your players of using "the jedi mind trick" as we know it from the movies. And, you are forcing characters that want to be "grey force users" to choose between becoming a jedi, or not using Influence at all!

It is really quite sad...

There is no grey. Only light or dark.

Droids are immune to mind affecting powers, and the core power upgraded is mind affecting; simple logic implies the social version is zapping everyone in the area...

Then again, almost no races are immune to Mind Affecting powers in Edge/Age/F&D... only one I've seen is Droids... Hutts aren't. Nor are Toydarians.

conflating an upgrade with a different power is, to my mind, a big lack/error in critical thinking skills; you want to enhance your social skills internally? You need a different power, as the core power for Influence is mind affecting, and all the uses are by implication also mind alterations.

This is evident from the general description on F&D p 283, and Eote p 279:

Quote

Control: Control upgrades add new effects to Force powers, or modify existing effects (adding or changing the way the Force-sensitive character spends Force points).

Note the wording. It's not "changes the base power" - it's an upgrade of the base. And because of the rules for Nemesis and PC targets, it's always an opposed roll when they're present.

Oh, and as for quoting from prior games, remember: A lot of the dev team have prior histories with the other (non-FFG) Star Wars games... plus, all the prior stuff was approved by LFL. So it's indicative of similar decisions by some overlapping subsets of staffing... noting the differences (such as in FFG SW, almost no one is immune to the mind affecting powers.) They're good predictors, but not perfect. As can be seen by Hutts & Toydarians not being Immune to Mind Tricks in FFG SW...

14 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

There is no grey. Only light or dark.

Droids are immune to mind affecting powers, and the core power upgraded is mind affecting; simple logic implies the social version is zapping everyone in the area...

Then again, almost no races are immune to Mind Affecting powers in Edge/Age/F&D... only one I've seen is Droids... Hutts aren't. Nor are Toydarians.

conflating an upgrade with a different power is, to my mind, a big lack/error in critical thinking skills; you want to enhance your social skills internally? You need a different power, as the core power for Influence is mind affecting, and all the uses are by implication also mind alterations.

This is evident from the general description on F&D p 283, and Eote p 279:

Note the wording. It's not "changes the base power" - it's an upgrade of the base. And because of the rules for Nemesis and PC targets, it's always an opposed roll when they're present.

Oh, and as for quoting from prior games, remember: A lot of the dev team have prior histories with the other (non-FFG) Star Wars games... plus, all the prior stuff was approved by LFL. So it's indicative of similar decisions by some overlapping subsets of staffing... noting the differences (such as in FFG SW, almost no one is immune to the mind affecting powers.) They're good predictors, but not perfect. As can be seen by Hutts & Toydarians not being Immune to Mind Tricks in FFG SW...

Exactly.

49 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

There is no grey. Only light or dark.

I have heard that "grey" force using is going to be an important theme for episode 8.

So, we will see...

15 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

This is evident from the general description on F&D p 283, and Eote p 279:

Quote

Control: Control upgrades add new effects to Force powers, or modify existing effects (adding or changing the way the Force-sensitive character spends Force points).

Note the wording. It's not "changes the base power" - it's an upgrade of the base. And because of the rules for Nemesis and PC targets, it's always an opposed roll when they're present.

Note the wording also says: "add new effects to Force powers". The social upgrade is such a "new effect". It is part of Influence because it is also about influencing people. However, it works "indirectly", by enhancing your natural abilities. It is similar (if not identical, considering the wording used) to the powers that improve Piloting and other skills granted by Enhance . Such a power, for example, does not work by manipulating the vehicle you are piloting with the force, instead the force is used to make you a better pilot by improving your reflexes, etc.

It is likely that young Anakin used the same kind of force power to fly his Podracer, even before he knew that he was using the force to do it.

Anyway, if you want to say that droids are immune to even this kind of use of the force, then that's OK with me.

I am just saying, there is good reason under RAW that this is not necessarily the case.

17 minutes ago, Jabberwocki said:

I have heard that "grey" force using is going to be an important theme for episode 8.

So, we will see...

Note the wording also says: "add new effects to Force powers". The social upgrade is such a "new effect". It is part of Influence because it is also about influencing people. However, it works "indirectly", by enhancing your natural abilities. It is similar (if not identical, considering the wording used) to the powers that improve Piloting and other skills granted by Enhance . Such a power, for example, does not work by manipulating the vehicle you are piloting with the force, instead the force is used to make you a better pilot by improving your reflexes, etc.

It is likely that young Anakin used the same kind of force power to fly his Podracer, even before he knew that he was using the force to do it.

Anyway, if you want to say that droids are immune to even this kind of use of the force, then that's OK with me.

I am just saying, there is good reason under RAW that this is not necessarily the case.

Can't see it. You're arguing for a fundamental difference in how it works when upgraded; that's not consistent with other powers.

9 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Can't see it. You're arguing for a fundamental difference in how it works when upgraded; that's not consistent with other powers.

I agree that this can be called a fundamental difference. The Basic Power and the "Alter Thoughts" upgrade obviously directly affect the target's mind. So the question is, does the Social Upgrade do this as well?

I think there are a number of good reasons (which have been mentioned previously on this post - check the first page) why this is not the case. And, after taking a careful look at this I am pretty sure that the developers actually intended this upgrade to be an Enhance kind of power, but nevertheless put it under the Influence heading.

But, let me explain why I started to look at this in the first place:

At our table, until recently, we have disallowed the use of the Social Upgrade over comms. But, this seemed like an arbitrary rule to me because we actually just made it up . The actual question was: does any range restriction apply at all? If so, then surely the same range restrictions apply, that apply to the other 2 aspects of the power!

And, if range restrictions apply, then surely also the Magnitude restrictions, and the Duration restrictions.

This would mean that when you roll, for example, an Influence upgraded Charm check, then you first remove the pips you need to get the required, range, duration and number of targets, and after that you can use whatever pips are left over to add successes and/or advantages to your result, right?

Well, I have asked a number of times on this forum, and no-one seems to actually play it like this (other than perhaps @Tramp Graphics ).

How about you, AK?

Here's the thing: if you believe that the Social Upgrade affects the mind of the target, then you must apply all the restrictions to your roll: Range, Duration and Magnitude. And, of course, any force immunities that the target may have.

However, if the Social Upgrade only affects the force user, then none of these restrictions apply.

I see no "middle ground" here. Either all restrictions apply, or none, depending on your understanding of how the Social Upgrade power actually works.

If anyone has ever put this questions to the devs, I'd love to know the answer...

I apply the range restrictions; it doesn't say not to.

But note also: the base power section includes:

Quote

When upgrading this power, the user can choose whether to influence and sway large crowds of people with his abilities, or to directly modify the thoughts or emotions of others.

That line, to me, makes it mind affecting either way -
— if youre directly modding the mind of a specific target, you get to directly set their emotional state, do stress, etc
— if you're hitting groups, you're still affecting THEIR minds, but spreading the same energy out over a wider area; this is represented by augmenting the skill check.

It's not focused inward - it's explicitly acting on the group. It's making them all more susceptible to your arguments, not making your arguments better.

21 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

But note also: the base power section includes:

Quote

When upgrading this power, the user can choose whether to influence and sway large crowds of people with his abilities, or to directly modify the thoughts or emotions of others.

That line, to me, makes it mind affecting either way -
— if youre directly modding the mind of a specific target, you get to directly set their emotional state, do stress, etc
— if you're hitting groups, you're still affecting THEIR minds, but spreading the same energy out over a wider area; this is represented by augmenting the skill check.

It's not focused inward - it's explicitly acting on the group. It's making them all more susceptible to your arguments, not making your arguments better.

"sway large crowds" is something you can do with a normal Charm or Leadership check, so there is no need to think that this aspect of the power is mind altering.

" not making your arguments better" ... ?!

But the description of the Upgrade specifically specifies that the power improves your arguments, see page 295 of F&D:

Quote

Control Upgrade: The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force.

On 6/3/2017 at 0:59 PM, Vorzakk said:

This seems to tie into a decades-old argument about what social skills should actually be capable of doing. Some seem to think that social skills are a form of mind control; and that if you have enough ranks or you roll a 20 (or whatever), then you should be able to talk a king into turning his kingdom over to you. Others, of course, strongly disagree (especially GM's).

To be honest, there are a number of cases, both real and fictional, or kingdoms being handed over through social checks. But it takes a very long series of them. Look at Grima Wormtongue and Rohan. His constant whispers had the king doing exactly what he wanted. But it took years, and many checks to get to that point.

On 6/12/2017 at 4:28 AM, Jabberwocki said:

I agree that this can be called a fundamental difference. The Basic Power and the "Alter Thoughts" upgrade obviously directly affect the target's mind. So the question is, does the Social Upgrade do this as well?

I think there are a number of good reasons (which have been mentioned previously on this post - check the first page) why this is not the case. And, after taking a careful look at this I am pretty sure that the developers actually intended this upgrade to be an Enhance kind of power, but nevertheless put it under the Influence heading.

But, let me explain why I started to look at this in the first place:

At our table, until recently, we have disallowed the use of the Social Upgrade over comms. But, this seemed like an arbitrary rule to me because we actually just made it up . The actual question was: does any range restriction apply at all? If so, then surely the same range restrictions apply, that apply to the other 2 aspects of the power!

And, if range restrictions apply, then surely also the Magnitude restrictions, and the Duration restrictions.

This would mean that when you roll, for example, an Influence upgraded Charm check, then you first remove the pips you need to get the required, range, duration and number of targets, and after that you can use whatever pips are left over to add successes and/or advantages to your result, right?

Well, I have asked a number of times on this forum, and no-one seems to actually play it like this (other than perhaps @Tramp Graphics ).

How about you, AK?

Here's the thing: if you believe that the Social Upgrade affects the mind of the target, then you must apply all the restrictions to your roll: Range, Duration and Magnitude. And, of course, any force immunities that the target may have.

However, if the Social Upgrade only affects the force user, then none of these restrictions apply.

I see no "middle ground" here. Either all restrictions apply, or none, depending on your understanding of how the Social Upgrade power actually works.

If anyone has ever put this questions to the devs, I'd love to know the answer...

Well, that's just it. You should be applying all of those restrictions to the roll. That's been my arguments from the getgo.

4 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

I apply the range restrictions; it doesn't say not to.

But note also: the base power section includes:

That line, to me, makes it mind affecting either way -
— if youre directly modding the mind of a specific target, you get to directly set their emotional state, do stress, etc
— if you're hitting groups, you're still affecting THEIR minds, but spreading the same energy out over a wider area; this is represented by augmenting the skill check.

It's not focused inward - it's explicitly acting on the group. It's making them all more susceptible to your arguments, not making your arguments better.

Exactly.

3 hours ago, Jabberwocki said:

"sway large crowds" is something you can do with a normal Charm or Leadership check, so there is no need to think that this aspect of the power is mind altering.

" not making your arguments better" ... ?!

But the description of the Upgrade specifically specifies that the power improves your arguments, see page 295 of F&D:

It "improves" the arguments by making the target(s) more susceptible to them.

1 hour ago, Edgookin said:

To be honest, there are a number of cases, both real and fictional, or kingdoms being handed over through social checks. But it takes a very long series of them. Look at Grima Wormtongue and Rohan. His constant whispers had the king doing exactly what he wanted. But it took years, and many checks to get to that point.

Exactly. Whereas the Influence power makes people more suggestible, much like a hypnotic suggestion. That is why Influence works faster. It manipulates the target(s) mind(s), making them more "malleable" to your will.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, that's just it. You should be applying all of those restrictions to the roll. That's been my arguments from the getgo.

And, that the restrictions do not apply , is what I have been saying, from the get go.

So, I finally put this question to FFG, and here is the exchange:

Quote

Hello Paul,

Generally, that control upgrade just boosts the effects of normal social skill checks, so you wouldn’t need other aspects of the power.

However, since the Force has no effects on mechanical beings, you could not use this upgrade to try and convince a droid of something.

Hope this helps!

Sam Stewart
RPG Manager
Fantasy Flight Games

The information contained in this electronic message is privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the recipient named above. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

On Jun 12, 2017, at 8:18 AM, [email protected] wrote:

Message from:
Paul M*********

E-mail:
paul.m*********@s*****.com

Rules Question:
Hi FFG, On page 295 of FaD we read: "Control Upgrade: The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force." Question: Do Range, Duration and Magnitude "restrictions" apply to this Upgrade, as they do to the other aspects of this power? For example, if you are using this Control Upgrade to improve a Charm check, do you first have to spend pips in order to achieve the required range, duration and number of targets, and then allocate any remaining pips to add successes and advantages to the Charm check? Or does this Upgrade work the same was as similar Upgrades to the Enhance power? If the Range, Duration and Magnitude restrictions do not apply, could it be that the Upgrade can also be used against a droid? Thanks for your help! Paul

So, @AK_Aramis is correct, droids are not affected by a force enhanced social check.

But, the aspects of the Influence power like Range, Duration and Magnitude, do not apply to the Upgrade.

2 minutes ago, Jabberwocki said:

And, that the restrictions do not apply , is what I have been saying, from the get go.

So, I finally put this question to FFG, and here is the exchange:

So, @AK_Aramis is correct, droids are not affected by a force enhanced social check.

But, the aspects of the Influence power like Range, Duration and Magnitude, do not apply to the Upgrade.

OK, so we're both right. I can live with that. That should also mean that others who are immune to mind affecting powers also are immune to the Social checks upgrade.