When you use Influence to enhance a social check, all you're doing is potentially adding additional successes and advantages. There's nothing stating that it pushes the capabilities of those skills beyond what is normally possible. So if Ray was doing nothing more than making a boosted Charm check in the above video, then it should have been possible for her to do the exact same thing with a really lucky Charm roll without any help from the Force at all. Now I'll admit that guys are prone to doing stupid things when pretty girls are involved, but I think the idea that she just charmed a loyal guard into releasing her and leaving her with a weapon is a little silly.

This seems to tie into a decades-old argument about what social skills should actually be capable of doing. Some seem to think that social skills are a form of mind control; and that if you have enough ranks or you roll a 20 (or whatever), then you should be able to talk a king into turning his kingdom over to you. Others, of course, strongly disagree (especially GM's).

The movie couldn't be any more obvious about this being the Jedi Mind Trick if it tried. Heck, you can even hear the typical sound cue used in movies to make the audience realize that the Force is being used! Altering someone's thoughts to think he should let you go and drop his weapon is the Control Emotion/Belief upgrade, plain and simple. You can not agree till the cows come home, everyone here will still agree with that assessment and run it that way in their games.

Taking control of someone's mind by definition changes their thoughts. Everyone who has ever gotten the Mind Trick used on them in the movies or even the KOTOR games if we want to draw from the old EU repeats what was just said to them. We even see it exactly like that in Rebels.

The Control Upgrade that enhances your social checks specifically augments your NATURAL ability. Like Vorzakk says, it can only be used when you could even make a social check to begin with. You're not going to use Charm or Leadership on a First Order Stormtrooper unless your GM allows you to make an Impossible check by paying a Destiny Point, and you're probably also getting 2-3 upgrades and setback in addition to those five purple dice thrown your way if that ever happens. Though honestly, with them being indoctrinated from birth, I wouldn't even let you attempt a Charm check on a random goon.

I disagree. By RAW , the Thoughts/Emotions upgrade is very specific as to how it works, and that is making a target either believe something untrue or change his/her emotional state. Period. That is all it does. It cannot make someone actually do something specific. Rey is not making the storm trooper believe something untrue, nor is she changing his emotional state. She is making him release her, leave the door open, and drop his blaster. The Social check upgrade is the only upgrade that specifically allows you to get someone to do something specific for you, and that is by using a social check to " convince " them to do it, which is what the social checks all do. They are all designed to convince a target to do something for you, be it through sweet-talking, lying, intimidation, force of personality, buying off, etc.

.....Except the social upgrade only enhances the PC's natural skill, not affects the taget's mind.

" You will remove these restraints and leave this cell with the door open. "

Look at it this way:

It's not a command, it's a prediction. Before she says that to him he won't do it - in other words, it's not true. But her Force power makes him believe it and act on it.

If you have enough triumphs then you probably should have the king turning over his kingdom. Mind you, you're getting those triumphs despite facing something like a 6C difficulty, and if you can pull that off then your knack is at functionally supernatural levels anyway.

4 hours ago, Garran said:

If you have enough triumphs then you probably should have the king turning over his kingdom. Mind you, you're getting those triumphs despite facing something like a 6C difficulty, and if you can pull that off then your knack is at functionally supernatural levels anyway.

No, you shouldn't. Rolling really well on an Athletics check doesn't let you jump straight to the moon either. Getting a great result on a social check doesn't let you violate basic human behavior, either.

Not withouttthe Force.

11 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. By RAW , the Thoughts/Emotions upgrade is very specific as to how it works, and that is making a target either believe something untrue or change his/her emotional state. Period. That is all it does. It cannot make someone actually do something specific. Rey is not making the storm trooper believe something untrue, nor is she changing his emotional state. She is making him release her, leave the door open, and drop his blaster. The Social check upgrade is the only upgrade that specifically allows you to get someone to do something specific for you, and that is by using a social check to " convince " them to do it, which is what the social checks all do. They are all designed to convince a target to do something for you, be it through sweet-talking, lying, intimidation, force of personality, buying off, etc.

You should never hang your understanding of RAW on just one phrase or sentence. The entire description of the Upgrade makes it clear that "believe something untrue", is not the only way this power works when altering thoughts.

Besides, "making people believe things that are untrue" is also what you do when you use Deception . So, why include this aspect in the upgrade (the Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade) when this is done with a Social Upgrade check using Deception? By your understanding of RAW the Alter Thoughts aspect of the power is redundant, and the upgrade should just be about altering emotions!

However, as we have already established by multiple arguments: there is a clear different between the upgrades: the Alter Thoughts aspect of the Upgrade is what everyone knows as the Jedi Mind Trick, and the Social Upgrade is just an enhancement to the regular social checks, which we are also all familiar with.

Unfortunately, despite that fact that everybody is convinced of this, you are still afraid that we are violating RAW because of the phrase "... believe something untrue" .

Well, @Stan Fresh to the rescue with an observation that may finally help you to overcome this last obstacle ...!!

5 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

" You will remove these restraints and leave this cell with the door open. "

Look at it this way:

It's not a command, it's a prediction. Before she says that to him he won't do it - in other words, it's not true. But her Force power makes him believe it and act on it.

'nough said!

On 6/5/2017 at 6:46 PM, Randy G said:

.....Except the social upgrade only enhances the PC's natural skill, not affects the taget's mind.

The RAW specifically states, and I quote:

Quote

To gain the ability to alter the thoughts and emotions of a living target with whom he is engaged, the user must make an opposed Discipline check against the target. as part of the pool to activate the power. The user must spend FP and he must succeed on the check to force the target to adopt an emotional state such as fear, friendliness, or hatred, or believe something untrue . (these aren't the droids you're looking for).

Nowhere does this upgrade allow the user to force the target to obey his will. By contrast, social checks do allow a character to convince the target to do what the user wants. In fact, that's what social checks are all about. They're all about getting others to do what you want them to do. It only allows you to change the target's emotional state or to believe something false. That is it.

On 6/5/2017 at 10:20 PM, Stan Fresh said:

" You will remove these restraints and leave this cell with the door open. "

Look at it this way:

It's not a command, it's a prediction. Before she says that to him he won't do it - in other words, it's not true. But her Force power makes him believe it and act on it.

No, it was a command . She tells him to release her, leave the door open, and drop his weapon. That is a command , not a prediction.

On 6/6/2017 at 4:40 AM, Jabberwocki said:

You should never hang your understanding of RAW on just one phrase or sentence. The entire description of the Upgrade makes it clear that "believe something untrue", is not the only way this power works when altering thoughts.

Besides, "making people believe things that are untrue" is also what you do when you use Deception . So, why include this aspect in the upgrade (the Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade) when this is done with a Social Upgrade check using Deception? By your understanding of RAW the Alter Thoughts aspect of the power is redundant, and the upgrade should just be about altering emotions!

However, as we have already established by multiple arguments: there is a clear different between the upgrades: the Alter Thoughts aspect of the Upgrade is what everyone knows as the Jedi Mind Trick, and the Social Upgrade is just an enhancement to the regular social checks, which we are also all familiar with.

Unfortunately, despite that fact that everybody is convinced of this, you are still afraid that we are violating RAW because of the phrase "... believe something untrue" .

Well, @Stan Fresh to the rescue with an observation that may finally help you to overcome this last obstacle ...!!

'nough said!

Actually, yes, it is the only way to alter "thoughts", as opposed to emotions. As I quoted above. The upgrade does not give any other options for changing thoughts.

In your own quote of me, you cite what I said, that the social control upgrade affects the PC's social checks. ...then cite something else that had nothing to do with it.

Sorry, but you can't convince me to see this your way, you failed your social check.

However if you had invested in the mind Trick portion that you quoted about opposing discipline checks, then MAYBE you would have successfully FORCED me to take your stance on the matter.

11 minutes ago, Randy G said:

In your own quote of me, you cite what I said, that the social control upgrade affects the PC's social checks. ...then cite something else that had nothing to do with it.

Sorry, but you can't convince me to see this your way, you failed your social check.

However if you had invested in the mind Trick portion that you quoted about opposing discipline checks, then MAYBE you would have successfully FORCED me to take your stance on the matter.

The social checks upgrade works as it does only from a game mechanics view because of the way the dice mechanics work in this system, applying all modifiers (and dice rolling) to the acting character, not the target. Therefore, under this game system's dice mechanic, any "penalties" against a "target" in any opposed roll, take the form of bonuses to the active character's dice roll. If , as with most other systems, opposed rolls worked by having two opposing characters rolling and comparing dice, then the way the upgrade works would be applying penalties to the target's roll instead of applying bonuses to the user's roll. However, because the system places all dice rolling in the hands of the active character, the upgrade is written as an "enhancement" when in reality, by canon, it is still manipulation of the target's mind.

So by your interpretation of what happened in canon, since you prefer to use RAW and apply it to all things star wars, Palatine was forcing his will upon everyone via the influence control upgrade, vs the influence control upgrade was enhancing his natural charisma to convince others to follow his rule.

?

1 minute ago, Randy G said:

So by your interpretation of what happened in canon, since you prefer to use RAW and apply it to all things star wars, Palatine was forcing his will upon everyone via the influence control upgrade, vs the influence control upgrade was enhancing his natural charisma to convince others to follow his rule.

?

Yes, he was manipulating peoples minds. Aside from the specific limits of what the Thoughts/Emotions upgrade effects, the only other real difference between the Thoughts/Emotions upgrade and the Social checks upgrade is the skill being boosted by the Force points gained from the Force Power check. Using the Emotions/Thoughts upgrade, the Force user applies the FP gained from the Force check to his Discipline skill, whereas using the "Social Checks" upgrade, the user applies those FP to a Social skill of his choice. The actual effects are essentially the same. He manipulates the mind of the target to a specific end .

So he was able to affect the minds of thousands within the same auditorium directly, for years, without anyone sensing their minds being altered? Not even Yoda?

And again, your interpretation is not the same as RAW.

28 minutes ago, Randy G said:

So he was able to affect the minds of thousands within the same auditorium directly, for years, without anyone sensing their minds being altered? Not even Yoda?

And again, your interpretation is not the same as RAW.

He was able to affect many minds, yes, and he was able to suppress the Jedi's abilities to sense his manipulations. As even Yoda said, there was a shadow enveloping them all. The Dark Side was clouding everything.

Ok, good, then we are on the same page. ...he was actively clouding their minds by doing an oppossed discipline check.

5 minutes ago, Randy G said:

Ok, good, then we are on the same page. ...he was actively clouding their minds by doing an oppossed discipline check.

No. He was clouding their ability to sense his use of the Dark Side using completely different powers (most likely Misdirect and Suppress ), as well as through the Dark Side nexus under the Jedi Temple. He kept the Senate in thrall through Influence , including use of the Social Checks upgrade, as well as other powers.

32 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. He was clouding their ability to sense his use of the Dark Side using completely different powers (most likely Misdirect and Suppress ), as well as through the Dark Side nexus under the Jedi Temple. He kept the Senate in thrall through Influence , including use of the Social Checks upgrade, as well as other powers.

Touche!

7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it was a command . She tells him to release her, leave the door open, and drop his weapon. That is a command , not a prediction.

You will use bold font for emphasis and debate people in this thread.

9 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, he was manipulating peoples minds. Aside from the specific limits of what the Thoughts/Emotions upgrade effects, the only other real difference between the Thoughts/Emotions upgrade and the Social checks upgrade is the skill being boosted by the Force points gained from the Force Power check. Using the Emotions/Thoughts upgrade, the Force user applies the FP gained from the Force check to his Discipline skill, whereas using the "Social Checks" upgrade, the user applies those FP to a Social skill of his choice. The actual effects are essentially the same. He manipulates the mind of the target to a specific end .

Tramps, you have misunderstood the mechanics!

The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade does not boost the opposed Discipline check.

To succeed using this aspect of the power you have to succeed at the opposed Discipline check and roll at least one pip in order to activate the power.

On the other hand, the Social Upgrade allows you to add Successes and Advantages to the result if the Social Skill check, in the same way that the Enhance powers work. This means the Social Upgrade can work, even if you roll no pips, and do not use the force at all!

The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade requires that both work , the basic Discipline check must succeed, and you must use the force.

This is a fundamentally difference in mechanics shows that the difference is much more than just the skill involved. It also gives the usage of the 2 aspects of Influence a complete different "feeling". The player is aware of using the force to directly influence his target when using the Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade.

When using the Social Check Upgrade, the player has the distinct feeling that he is indirectly influencing his opponent(s), because he is using the force to give his natural ability a boost, which may or may not be necessary to succeed.

9 hours ago, Randy G said:

So he was able to affect the minds of thousands within the same auditorium directly, for years, without anyone sensing their minds being altered? Not even Yoda?

And again, your interpretation is not the same as RAW.

Personally I think Palpatine only used his natural ability to do all this. The book "Darth Plagueis", tells the story.

A force user can mask his ability (although I have not found such a power in the Star Wars RPG) however, you cannot use the force and mask it at the same time. Usage of the force really lights up to a Jedi (and even less trained force sensitives). A particular strong usage would look like fireworks to them, no matter what kinds of dampening effects are in place.

Nevertheless, if you want to influence "thousands within the same auditorium" using the force, the only way to do this in the Star Wars RPG is to use the Influence Social Upgrade power. The Alter Thoughts/Emotions Upgrade (which is more effective because of the mind control aspect) cannot be used on such a large number of people because you would need to roll over 300 pips to effect 1000 people!

The Social Upgrade, is not limited in this way because it is an enhancement to the natural Skills like Charm and Negotiation, which can be used to influence 1000's people.

However, everything I have read tells me that if Palpatine had used the force to enhance his social abilities this would have been noticed, and his force abilities exposed before he had the chance to gain control.

Palpatine doesn't play by PC rules, though . He's an NPC. And they get weird abilities that can break the supposed rules of the game.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Palpatine doesn't play by PC rules, though . He's an NPC. And they get weird abilities that can break the supposed rules of the game.

One thing he does, which is not in the game, is hide his force abilities. I would be interested in doing this but none of the powers available so far appear to do this.

There are many situations where you do not want other force users to know you have force powers, or detect your presence. So such a power would be very useful.

53 minutes ago, Jabberwocki said:

One thing he does, which is not in the game, is hide his force abilities. I would be interested in doing this but none of the powers available so far appear to do this.

There are many situations where you do not want other force users to know you have force powers, or detect your presence. So such a power would be very useful.

Actually it is in the game! Sentinel Shadow career/spec, talent: Shroud. You can use force powers during the scene in which you use Shroud with impunity and NOBODY will be able to tell that its coming from you. Hell they won't even know that you're force sensitive at all with that ability active.

...In the campaign I'm planning, the Emperor for that game has this talent. So it'll be fun making her show up during the campaign multiple times, them getting a convenient Destiny Point (without knowing from what) and interacting on friendly terms with a mortal enemy. Which is basically what old Palps did during the prequel era.

Just gonna thow this out there and be done commenting.

Of the social checks in the game, none of them get someone to do what you want 100% of the time when you succeed.

A successful charm roll just means you get on someone's good side. Could that benefit you with things they are willing to reveal in conversation? Sure. Does it make them instantly fall under your spell and do everything you ask? No, it's not mind control.

How about Deception? A successful roll means that the target believes the lie, it does not mean they act upon that lie.

Coercion? It's very likely someone will do what you want with coercion but it's also possible that they don't, as people react differently to threats of violence. Some flee in terror or shut down mentally.

I'd say the closest thing we have to mind control in the game is the emotion/belief upgrade to influence.

Target a Stormtrooper, succeed the opposed check and roll dark side pips. The Stormtrooper now believes his allies murdered his parents in a dark alleyway on Coruscant when he was 8 years old and he feels an intense rage like never before. He's very likely to start shooting them now, as to him, it's the perfect moment to seek vengeance.