1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:We're talking about the specific Control upgrades for the Influence Power in this game (F&D pages 294-295) determining which one was used by these individuals to support our arguments.
Well you have me beat, I personally dont know which ability they used, even when reading the novels it doesn't specify what upgrade of influence they used.
7 minutes ago, syrath said:Well you have me beat, I personally dont know which ability they used, even when reading the novels it doesn't specify what upgrade of influence they used.
It's easy to figure out by what they say, and what kind of response they seek to get out of their target. Obi Wan definitely uses the Emotion/Deception upgrade on the Storm Troopers when he says "these aren't the droids you're looking for." By contrast, the examples above is the Jedi telling the target what to do. Trying to get the target to do a specific thing for them, not feel something in particular nor believe something untrue. That is how I know they're using the Social Checks upgrade not the Emotion upgrade. It's all a matter of what they're trying to accomplish with the power.
No, it's easy to make an assumption on translating the movies and post Disney books (the only canon that matters for this discussion ) into the game mechanics used by FFG and then to use that assumption to build a personal narrative that reinforces that assumption and thus causing a self fulfilling prophetic loop that entrenched some fans deeper into their personal dogma and preventing them from seeing other points of view when presented with other supported, RAW, and viable methods of using the game.
No. It's looking at the evidence and watching what the characters are actually doing and saying . When you ask or tell someone to do something, that's not manipulating their emotions nor making them believe something untrue. That's using a Social skill. Therefore, the upgrade used is the Social Check upgrade. It's not rocket science to figure out.
Edited by Tramp Graphics5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:Wrong . Under the old Canon, everything not labelled Infinities was canon . This had been repeatedly stated by both Leland Chee (original keeper of the LFL Holocron database) as well as then head of Lucasfilm Licensing, Sue Rostoni. Thus, those books have always been canon up until Disney decided to change things.
My understanding of the old EU corresponds with this description
Intended as an enhancement to and extension of the Star Wars theatrical films produced by George Lucas , the continuity of all Expanded Universe material was tracked by Lucasfilm, and Lucas reserved the right to both draw on it and contradict it in his own works.
source - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_expanded_universe
the RPG , books, comics etc were tracked at least at one point by Leeland Chee as "Keeper of the Holocron" , even my own understanding of it back in the 90s was that none of this was canon. So when it was rebranded as Legends , it was only confirming to the world offically that the material wasnt canon, even though it never was in the first place though and while the release of the material was still tightly controlled and tracked , with much info still being retained and since published in further material that is now canon ( the ISB and the Inquisitors being two of my favourites, even over the introduction of Thrawn into canon ) .
The apparent adopted canonicity of the old expanded universe appears to have stemmed from the fact that it was officially licensed,which is in itself not the same thing, and then fact they never made a deal out of it not being canon. The current FFG RPG books are officially lkcensed but are not canon either.
Ive scoured the rest of my own material for canon information on immunity to mind tricks by living creatures, still havent found it but I did find further info on Toydarians being resistant in the Star wars: Aliens of the Galaxy book with a box out saying - As Qui-Gon Jinn discovered when trying to use a Jedi Mind Trick on Watto, Toydarians are tough-minded and can resist suggestion and coercion. This is at least a canon source.
So ive done a bit of homework on your behalf but can still find no evidence of your claims of immunity of living races to the Jedi Mind Trick, just resistance, which could be explaind by just about anything, but the wording seems to lean toward a high Willpower being the cause , however to clarify this is just supposition on my part. Ive scoured the material in the novels for info on it as well. The only consistency is that the person will say that something is true , they usually wave their hand and the target then repeats it back, often paraphrased, as if hypnotised. In the films this is what seems to differentiate it from normal social interaction, otherwise , we as watchers have no way of knowing for sure what just happened. A social check would still appear normal conversation and every instance of the Jedi Mind trick shown as attempted follows this pattern in the films to date I can remember.
The Phantom Menace
Quigon and Boss Nas - 2 uses of the jedi mind trick, one to help "Speed us on our way" and the other to save Jar Jar
Quigon and Watto - "Republic credits wil be fine" - Failed
Attack of the Clones -
Obi-Wan and "Sleazbaganno" - "You dont want to sell me death sticks"" You want to go home and rethink your life" - I know the name is wrong here
Revenge of the Sith - cant think of any offhand
A New Hope - Obi-wan and stormtroopers - These are not the droids you're looking for
The Empire Strikes Back - None
Return of the Jedi
Luke Skywalker vs Bib Fortuna - You will take me to Jabba now
Luke Skywalker vs Jabba Failed attempt to get him to release Han and Chewie
The Force Awakens
Rey vs trooper - initially failed attempt which works
All of these examples follow the same steps Assumptive Phrase from the actice person , paraphrasing back by the target when successful, the hand wave seems to be there to make it more clear for the viewer what just happened, but isnt always included, the hynotised state they appear to be in while repeating this statment makes all the succesful attempts appear more akin to Mind Control, which is absolutely not the case for the particular upgrade for the social checks which in game are still subject to the restrictions for social checks , example convincing a stormtrooper to drop his weapon and let a prisoner go, when the likely punishment for said action would be severe, even with an upgraded check this shouldnt happen in game, but the other control upgrade which is even described in it's description as the jedi mind trick can do this easily in game, even to the point of contolling an ATDP pilot to shoot on his own people and walk off a platform. If it wasnt for the visual clues of Ezra mimicking the movements of the pilot you could argue this was misdirect.
To me there are possibly examples that could be use of the social check upgrade in canon (the inquisitor interrogating Kanan perhaps) but how would you ever know for sure as they would just look like examples of social checks.
Edited by syrathIn the back of one of the issues of Star Wars Gamer (I'll look up the issue number when I get home), Sue Rostoni specifically wrote an article regarding what was and was not canon at the time. She spaid that canon referred to everything considered a part of the official Star Wars timeline, including all of the books, games, comics, etc. Only those stories marked as Infinities or published in Star Wars Tales, were non-canon. Everything else was canon. IF you want, I'll bring the issue with me to the library tomorrow and quote the actual passage for you. Over on the SW site and message boards, Leland Chee also went through the various tiers of canon, ranging from G-level (the movies novelizations, basically everything directly from GL) through C-level (the EU), S-level (older material from MArvel and such) and N level (Non-canon, Infinities ). This was in effect until Disney bought Lucasfilm.
As for your examples:
Qui Gon Jinn with Boss Nass: Social Upgrade. He's negotiating with and convincing Boss Nass to do something for him, He's not deceiving him, nor trying to alter his emotions. That's a Social Check upgrade.
With Watto, that was a failed attempt to make him believe something untrue. The Emotion/Deception upgrade. We both agree on that. Watto goes on to state that it wouldn't work because he is a Toydarian . Toydarians are immune to mind control.
Obi Wan and the Storm Troopers (ANH) Emotion/Deception upgrade. Simple.
Luke and Bib Fortuna: Combination of both Emotion/Deception upgrade and Social Checks upgrade. HE's convinces Fortuna to let him see Jabba, and deceives him into believing that he'll be rewarded for doing so.
Luke and Jabba: Social Check upgrade (possibly using coercion or negotiation). Failed, mind tricks don't work on Hutts.
Rey and the Storm Trooper: Social Check upgrade. She convinces him to do what she wants, not deceive him nor change his emotional state.
Further example mentioned earlier. Anakin, Obi Wan, and Mace Windu vs Cad Bane: Social check upgrade (coercion).
Edited by Tramp Graphics46 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:In the back of one of the issues of Star Wars Gamer (I'll look up the issue number when I get home), Sue Rostoni specifically wrote an article regarding what was and was not canon at the time. She spaid that canon referred to everything considered a part of the official Star Wars timeline, including all of the books, games, comics, etc. Only those stories marked as Infinities or published in Star Wars Tales, were non-canon. Everything else was canon. IF you want, I'll bring the issue with me to the library tomorrow and quote the actual passage for you. Over on the SW site and message boards, Leland Chee also went through the various tiers of canon, ranging from G-level (the movies novelizations, basically everything directly from GL) through C-level (the EU), S-level (older material from MArvel and such) and N level (Non-canon, Infinities ). This was in effect until Disney bought Lucasfilm.
As for your examples:
Qui Gon Jinn with Boss Nass: Social Upgrade. He's negotiating with and convincing Boss Nass to do something for him, He's not deceiving him, nor trying to alter his emotions. That's a Social Check upgrade.
With Watto, that was a failed attempt to make him believe something untrue. The Emotion/Deception upgrade. We both agree on that. Watto goes on to state that it wouldn't work because he is a Toydarian . Toydarians are immune to mind control.
Obi Wan and the Storm Troopers (ANH) Emotion/Deception upgrade. Simple.
Luke and Bib Fortuna: Combination of both Emotion/Deception upgrade and Social Checks upgrade. HE's convinces Fortuna to let him see Jabba, and deceives him into believing that he'll be rewarded for doing so.
Luke and Jabba: Social Check upgrade (possibly using coercion or negotiation). Failed, mind tricks don't work on Hutts.
Rey and the Storm Trooper: Social Check upgrade. She convinces him to do what she wants, not deceive him nor change his emotional state.
Further example mentioned earlier. Anakin, Obi Wan, and Mace Windu vs Cad Bane: Social check upgrade (coercion).
Id be interested to hear about the info on the canon stuff as I will admit to following it less as it got later into the 90s and as I also said this is my understanding and while it lines up with the explanation on wikipedia im not going to be as stupid as to say wikipedia is right everytime.
As for your examples you seem to be shoehorning most examples as an upgraded social check, as far as I am aware the social check upgrade didnt exist in previous versions of the game (although its been a long time since I read D6and have never read d20.) Regardless, you are using supposition then stating it as fact. On the subject of immunity , even your own sources you quoted describe it as resistance and not immunity , which when you repeat the same info as fact time and time again, even when you proved yourself wrong, makes you appear like a troll.
Never mind that Reys mind trick for example is definitely not a social check upgrade, it would be preposterous that a prisoner with nothing to offer a guard would be able to talk them into letting them go and giving them a weapon , that could then potentially be used on the guard.They werent even talked into it, she got him to do a complete 180 on his own decision without the slightest grounds of a reason for him to do so. In many of these cases logic is getting thrown out the window if you think they are social checks.
Give me any potential reason that a stormtrooper would even consider it, if you were able to talk them into helping you it would be more logical that if they were to assist you, they would either go all the way and help you (keeping their weapon and defecting in the process ala finn and poe style) and not just walk away repeating what you just said , dropping their weapon and heading off down the corridor with their back turned to you. This is far from normal behaviour, and a social check isnt going to make you act abnormally like pretty much all these examples do. Bib Fortuna, who knows that Jabba's anger could get him killed when he has been expressly told not to admit him. This is acting against his own survival, again something I wouldnt expect from any check short of strong coercion and an even stronger threat on their life worse than Jabba, Bib even had a lot of disdain for Luke(and Luke certainly didnt threaten him, charm him, negotiate with him , he just told him what to do and Bib did it, ). Social checks involve reciprocal conversation the jedi mind trick doesnt have to.
Edited by syrath8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:As for your examples:
Qui Gon Jinn with Boss Nass: Social Upgrade. He's negotiating with and convincing Boss Nass to do something for him, He's not deceiving him, nor trying to alter his emotions. That's a Social Check upgrade.
With Watto, that was a failed attempt to make him believe something untrue. The Emotion/Deception upgrade. We both agree on that. Watto goes on to state that it wouldn't work because he is a Toydarian . Toydarians are immune to mind control.
Obi Wan and the Storm Troopers (ANH) Emotion/Deception upgrade. Simple.
Luke and Bib Fortuna: Combination of both Emotion/Deception upgrade and Social Checks upgrade. HE's convinces Fortuna to let him see Jabba, and deceives him into believing that he'll be rewarded for doing so.
Luke and Jabba: Social Check upgrade (possibly using coercion or negotiation). Failed, mind tricks don't work on Hutts.
Rey and the Storm Trooper: Social Check upgrade. She convinces him to do what she wants, not deceive him nor change his emotional state.
Further example mentioned earlier. Anakin, Obi Wan, and Mace Windu vs Cad Bane: Social check upgrade (coercion).
It appears to me that if this is the case then only you are able to determine which of the 2 Influence Upgrades is being used!
For the rest of us, how you know this is a mystery:
You are creating confusion and placing an unnecessary burden on us players of the Star Wars RPG.
To counteract what I see as misinformation, I want to go back to a definition of the Mind Trick that we actually all agreed upon before you started to muddy the waters :
How we identify the "Jedi" Mind Trick:
By this definition, ALL the examples above are one and the same Mind Trick , and players who want to do this kind of thing now just need to know which FaD power to use.
Let me make this clear: ignore what Tramp Graphics is saying and use this one, from page 295 of the FaD rules:
Control Upgrade: To gain the ability to alter the thoughts and emotions of a living target with whom he is engaged, the user makes an opposed Discipline check against the target as part of the pool to activate the power.
Later in the text it reads "to force the target ... to believe something that is untrue" , and gives the example: "These are not the droids you are looking for" .
Tramp Graphics has gotten hung up on this example, and believes that the power is only about changing emotions and getting people to believe something that is not true .
This is not the case. That is only an example. The power is about "altering thoughts and emotions ", and doing it by imposing your will on the target. As stated in the first sentence of the Upgrade above. And this is exactly what the Mind Trick does according to our previous understanding of the power (as defined above).
On the other hand, the other Upgrade is definitely not the Mind Trick, from page 295, FaD:
QuoteControl Upgrade: The user gains the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force. When making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation check, the user may roll an Influence power check as part of the pool.
This is not the Mind Trick because it is everything that the Mind Trick is not:
We now have a clear distinction between the 2 powers, and no more confusion about how, and when to use them:
So the Mind Trick Upgrade is powerful, and you don' need to get into any discussion when using it, but people who know about the force may recognise its usage when they see it.
The Social Check Upgrade, on the other hand, is much more subtle, but it is not so quick and efficient. However, only a powerful force user can recognise its usage because (s)he senses the use of the force. To others you just look very persuasive!
17 hours ago, syrath said:Id be interested to hear about the info on the canon stuff as I will admit to following it less as it got later into the 90s and as I also said this is my understanding and while it lines up with the explanation on wikipedia im not going to be as stupid as to say wikipedia is right everytime.
As for your examples you seem to be shoehorning most examples as an upgraded social check, as far as I am aware the social check upgrade didnt exist in previous versions of the game (although its been a long time since I read D6and have never read d20.) Regardless, you are using supposition then stating it as fact. On the subject of immunity , even your own sources you quoted describe it as resistance and not immunity , which when you repeat the same info as fact time and time again, even when you proved yourself wrong, makes you appear like a troll.
Never mind that Reys mind trick for example is definitely not a social check upgrade, it would be preposterous that a prisoner with nothing to offer a guard would be able to talk them into letting them go and giving them a weapon , that could then potentially be used on the guard.They werent even talked into it, she got him to do a complete 180 on his own decision without the slightest grounds of a reason for him to do so. In many of these cases logic is getting thrown out the window if you think they are social checks.
Give me any potential reason that a stormtrooper would even consider it, if you were able to talk them into helping you it would be more logical that if they were to assist you, they would either go all the way and help you (keeping their weapon and defecting in the process ala finn and poe style) and not just walk away repeating what you just said , dropping their weapon and heading off down the corridor with their back turned to you. This is far from normal behaviour, and a social check isnt going to make you act abnormally like pretty much all these examples do. Bib Fortuna, who knows that Jabba's anger could get him killed when he has been expressly told not to admit him. This is acting against his own survival, again something I wouldnt expect from any check short of strong coercion and an even stronger threat on their life worse than Jabba, Bib even had a lot of disdain for Luke(and Luke certainly didnt threaten him, charm him, negotiate with him , he just told him what to do and Bib did it, ). Social checks involve reciprocal conversation the jedi mind trick doesnt have to.
The reason why it's a social check and not an emotion/deception upgrade is because in every example, it is about getting them to do something you want them to do, not a change in their emotions, or thoughts. Social checks, are all about getting someone to do something you want, whether they believe it's a good idea or not. No, the previous games didn't divide the Affect Mind (it's original name in those games) into different upgrades, as was done here. However, given that this version does specifically divide the power up into different upgrades for specific tasks, does mean we have to look at what the user wanted to accomplish , and what he specifically said to the target. Was the user giving the target a command to do something he or she wanted the target to do? that's a Social Check by its very nature. Did he want the target to believe something untrue? That's the emotion/Deception upgrade. Did he want them to both believe something untrue and do something specific? That is using both Control upgrades at the same time (nothing in the rules say you can't spend an FP each to activate both upgrades simultaneously ). This is what Luke did with Bib Fortuna. He USed the Social Check upgrade to "Charm" Fortuna into taking him to see Jabba, and the Deception upgrade to believe that it was a good idea and that he would be rewarded for doing so.
As for the "old canon" information. I've got the issue of SW Gamer with me. The statement from Sue Rostoni is from page 113 or Star Wars Gamer #6 (Sep 2001). It was an article written by the editors of the magazine regarding the use of the Infinities label on one of their previous issues, which created some confusion regarding the canonisity of the game as a result. In the article, the editior quotes Ms Rostoni The article reads as such:
QuoteUnderstanding Infinities
The Star Wars Infinities logo that appeared on the cover of Gamer #4 raised the hackles of several readers who proceeded to bombard us from orbit with heavy mail. For the record, we intended the logo to point to some of the lighter content in that issue, in particular, that hilarious Dark Horse comic. The appearance of the Infinities logo on the cover raised the issue of what IS and IS NOT, considered "canon" in the Star Wars universe. According to Lucas Licensing editor Sue Rostoni, "Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as it does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays. " Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales . Everything else is considered canon. Whether people decide to accept this definition is up to them.
This did not change until Disney purchased Lucasfilm. So, when I refer to "old canon" that does indeed include all of the EU, including novels, source books, comics, and games. They were all , up until Disney's purchase of Lucasfilm, canon, according to Lucas Licensing.
8 hours ago, Jabberwocki said:It appears to me that if this is the case then only you are able to determine which of the 2 Influence Upgrades is being used!
For the rest of us, how you know this is a mystery:
- Qui Gon fails in an attempt to tell something that is untrue, why is this not a failed Upgraded Deception check?
- Luke and Bib are involved in a Combination, so which upgrade do I use?
- Luke used Coercion or Negotiation, against Jabba but if he used Deception (which is also a social skill), then I must use the other upgrade...?
- Rey says: "you will remove these restraints", is Social Check upgrade, but if Rey said: "you want to remove these restraints" then suddenly this would require the other upgrade because now she is saying something untrue...!?
You are creating confusion and placing an unnecessary burden on us players of the Star Wars RPG.
To counteract what I see as misinformation, I want to go back to a definition of the Mind Trick that we actually all agreed upon before you started to muddy the waters :
How we identify the "Jedi" Mind Trick:
- The use of the Mind Trick can be identified by the fact that the user makes a statement that the target is intended to adopt, without any argument or discussion, from either side!
- The tone of voice makes it clear that the user is not asking , he/she is imposing his/her will on the target.
By this definition, ALL the examples above are one and the same Mind Trick , and players who want to do this kind of thing now just need to know which FaD power to use.
Let me make this clear: ignore what Tramp Graphics is saying and use this one, from page 295 of the FaD rules:
Later in the text it reads "to force the target ... to believe something that is untrue" , and gives the example: "These are not the droids you are looking for" .
Tramp Graphics has gotten hung up on this example, and believes that the power is only about changing emotions and getting people to believe something that is not true .
This is not the case. That is only an example. The power is about "altering thoughts and emotions ", and doing it by imposing your will on the target. As stated in the first sentence of the Upgrade above. And this is exactly what the Mind Trick does according to our previous understanding of the power (as defined above).
On the other hand, the other Upgrade is definitely not the Mind Trick, from page 295, FaD:
This is not the Mind Trick because it is everything that the Mind Trick is not:
- Social checks involve arguments and discussion, which the the Mind Trick does not.
- Social checks rely on Charisma to achieve results, while a Mind Trick does not.
- Social checks do not directly alter thoughts, which the Mind Trick does.
- Social checks are only a battle of wills in the case of Coercion, but the Mind Trick is always a battle of wills.
We now have a clear distinction between the 2 powers, and no more confusion about how, and when to use them:
- If you want to use the classic Mind Trick which we all know (and love): purchase and use the first Control Upgrade (the "Mind Trick Upgrade") listed above.
- If you want to be more subtle (not overtly a Jedi) and are otherwise good at the social skills : purchase and use the second Control Upgrade (aka the "Social Check Upgrade") listed above.
So the Mind Trick Upgrade is powerful, and you don' need to get into any discussion when using it, but people who know about the force may recognise its usage when they see it.
The Social Check Upgrade, on the other hand, is much more subtle, but it is not so quick and efficient. However, only a powerful force user can recognise its usage because (s)he senses the use of the force. To others you just look very persuasive!
Jabberwocki, I disagree with pretty much everything you just said. Nor do I agree with your so-called "definition" of what the Mind Trick is. As stated in the opening text of the entire Influence power is the Mind Trick, not just the Emotion/Deception upgrade . This is explicitly clear from the opening text, which refers to Influence as a whole as the "Mind Trick". To quote:
QuoteThe ability to influence the minds of others is not something to be taken lightly. Misuse of the ability, colloquially known as a "mind trick" , is a sure step on the path to the dark side. A powerful Force user can manipulate the minds of others to the point where he can convince them to believe things that are untrue, or calm an angry crowd. Conversely, he can rile the crowd into a murderous frenzy, or frighten a single soul into gibbering madness. This is where the danger of Influence lies.
Not only that, but the Emotion upgrade never even mentions the term "mind trick" anywhere, much less as only being applied to that specific upgrade. Therefore, it is not just he Emotion Upgrade which is the Mind Trick. The whole power is the Mind Trick. The opening text of the power specifically states as much.
I've reread the Emotion upgrade back and forth. and specifically, it flat out gives two specific possible uses: to force a change in the target's emotional state or believe things untrue . It alters thoughts and emotions. That is all it does. It does not compel someone to do something. The Social check upgrade, however, does do that because all of the social checks are about getting others to do what you want either through charming them, negotiating with them, lying to them, coercing them into doing it, etc. Therefore, that is the Upgrade applied when making someone do your will , rather than believe something or feel something. So, no, Rey was definitely not using the Thoughts/Emotion upgrade. She was using the Social Check upgrade (I'd say probably using Charm, not Negotiation, as the base skill).
8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:Jabberwocki, I disagree with pretty much everything you just said. Nor do I agree with your so-called "definition" of what the Mind Trick is. As stated in the opening text of the entire Influence power is the Mind Trick, not just the Emotion/Deception upgrade . This is explicitly clear from the opening text, which refers to Influence as a whole as the "Mind Trick". To quote:
QuoteThe ability to influence the minds of others is not something to be taken lightly. Misuse of the ability, colloquially known as a "mind trick" , is a sure step on the path to the dark side. A powerful Force user can manipulate the minds of others to the point where he can convince them to believe things that are untrue, or calm an angry crowd. Conversely, he can rile the crowd into a murderous frenzy, or frighten a single soul into gibbering madness. This is where the danger of Influence lies.
Not only that, but the Emotion upgrade never even mentions the term "mind trick" anywhere, much less as only being applied to that specific upgrade. Therefore, it is not just he Emotion Upgrade which is the Mind Trick. The whole power is the Mind Trick. The opening text of the power specifically states as much.
Actually, there is a simple and immediately obvious reason why the whole Influence power is not the Mind Trick:
the Basic Power just causes Strain by stressing the mind . Whatever stressing the mind is, it has never been part of what we understand to be the Mind Trick.
Secondly, the passage you quote above is easily explained:
By way of introduction, they are simply referring to the most well-known aspect of the Influence power , which is the Mind Trick.
In the Emotion upgrade (as you call it), they don't specifically mention the Mind Trick, but they quote the most famous example of the Mind Trick, which makes it clear that this Upgrade is the Mind Trick.
Your basic assumption that all aspects of the Influence power must be the Mind Trick is causing you to jump through all kinds of hoops as you retrofit a few rules of an RPG back onto events that have happened in the film and books.
You just cannot turn the original few words used to perform the Mind Trick into negotiations and other forms of discourse!
Seriously, I am pretty sure no-one is buying it:
8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:with Rey and the storm trooper .... That's a Social check (Charm being the specific skill used).
How can I put this so that you will understand? ... uhm ... No, she was not charming the stormtrooper. No, definitely not.
Daisy is a very good and attractive actress. If she was charming the stormtrooper we would have noticed!!!
What you are doing is not working, but let me put this another way:
If you were right in your understanding of the RPG rules, as loyal Star Wars fans of many years, we should all be standing up, hands on our hearts, and declaring:
"Oh yes indeed, what a fine, steaming pile of smelly b*llsh*t these rules are! Yo, ho, let's all go play Star Trek..."
Rather than do what your are doing,
which is re-writting the Star Wars movies
in order to prove the rules are absolutely OK!!!
I just realized we overlooked one of the most successful uses of Influence was in Empire. Personally I believe it would be the social upgrade.
Obi-Wan's ghost telling Luke to go to Dagobah.
First, The basic power stresses the MIND. Ergo, it is still a mind trick. Mind Trick is a colloquial term for mind affecting powers, not one specific power. As Jabba says, bout Luke, "He's using AN old Jedi mind trick." And Influence covers multiple mind affecting powers , not one specific ability. That is what "Jedi Mind Tricks" are They are simply mind effecting Force abilities, and that is what Influence as a whole is. It is the mind affecting power the upgrades of which cover all mind affecting abilities we see in the canon.
Secondly, the opening paragraph, talks about every upgrade, not just emotions, not just making people believe untrue things. It talks about convincing people, scaring the crap out of people (coercion), Dominating their minds; everything you can do with this power, not just the "most popular" thing. So, no. The Influence power as a whole is the Mind Trick, not just the Thoughts/Emotion upgrade. Nowhere in the Thoughts/Emotions upgrade alone specifically referred to as the Mind Trick in the book, certainly not in its specific text . It is the power as a whole which is referred to as the Mind Trick, not just the Thoughts/Emotion upgrade. This isn't an assumption. It's what the book specifically states.
As for Rey, Charm is the closest social skill we can use. Also, it should be noted that Charm includes " appealing to a person's better nature ", not just sweet-talking or seduction. That is what we can interpret here. To quote:
QuoteAppeals to a target's better nature-even if it does not exist-generally requires a character to use Charm. These sorts of requests may require the target to go out of his way to aid the characters without any hope of remuneration.
This is what we have here. She convinces the storm trooper to release her and drop his weapon, with obviously no hope for remuneration. So, in this case, it's like a the hypnotic "Charm" of a snake charmer or vampire.
So no, I am not rewriting the movies at all. I am looking the movies and applying the current game rules to the scenes in them.
She doesn't appeal to his better nature. She's not going all "releasing me would be the right thing to do". She's telling him what to do.
54 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:She doesn't appeal to his better nature. She's not going all "releasing me would be the right thing to do". She's telling him what to do.
This. There is no attempt at social skills, in any of the given examples.
I still maintain that the mind tricks in the movies are more akin to an old-school D&D Suggestion spell, than to any sort of enhanced social check.
1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:She doesn't appeal to his better nature. She's not going all "releasing me would be the right thing to do". She's telling him what to do.
She's not altering his emotions nor thoughts. She's telling him to do something. This is covered under social checks, and Charm is the only social check, aside from Leadership, where the target is simply told to do something, without some form of lying, buying off, or intimidation. So yes, she is telling him what to do. She is not changing his thoughts nor emotions. She's not making him like her, she is not making him believe a falsehood. She's telling him to do something. This, by its very nature, is a social check, which specifically cover getting people to do what you want.
3 minutes ago, Edgehawk said:This. There is no attempt at social skills, in any of the given examples.
I still maintain that the mind tricks in the movies are more akin to an old-school D&D Suggestion spell, than to any sort of enhanced social check.
Suggestions are still social checks. Be it through sweet talking, buying off, deceiving, intimidation, etc. The use of Influence in these cases is through manipulating the target's mind into doing what you want them to do; not by altering their emotions, nor believing something untrue, but simply telling them to do it. That could be through Leadership, Coercion, Charm, Deception, or Negotiation. Pick the skill that fits best.
6 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:First, The basic power stresses the MIND. Ergo, it is still a mind trick. Mind Trick is a colloquial term for mind affecting powers, not one specific power. As Jabba says, bout Luke, "He's using AN old Jedi mind trick." And Influence covers multiple mind affecting powers , not one specific ability. That is what "Jedi Mind Tricks" are They are simply mind effecting Force abilities, and that is what Influence as a whole is. It is the mind affecting power the upgrades of which cover all mind affecting abilities we see in the canon.
Perhaps we can actually agree on something here!
Although usage of "a mind trick" in this way (which would include Misdirect powers, and others) is not canon , as you may read here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_trick , section: Behind the scenes .
Nevertheless, this warning about mind affecting powers still does not mean that all powers in Influence must affect the mind directly. The Social Check Upgrades are first and foremost Social Skill checks. And that remains so, even after being enhanced by the force. And the description of the Upgrade tells use that!
And, with regard to "the mind trick": I agree with @Edgehawk 's simple definition: it is like a Suggestion spell in D&D. This definition is also implied by the Wookieepedia authors who write: " When using the mind trick, the practitioner generally adopted a suggestive tone of voice and used a distinctive gesture".
If you disagreed with my definition of mind trick, is it too much for me to assume that you nevertheless agree with the writers of Wookieepedia?!
Because, if you do agree with the definition of mind trick in Wookieepedia, then you will find the rest of my argument quite compelling...
Wookieepedia page: Mind trick gives (among others), 2 examples of the usage of the mind trick which we have discussed before:
So Qui-Gon's usage is considered the same Mind Trick power, even though he used the "command" style, and Obi-Wan used the "believe something untrue" style!
This shows clearly that every normal Star Wars fan believes that all usages of this power is one and the same Mind Trick.
The FFG developers know this as well , and therefore I am absolutely certain that they never intended to divide the Mind Trick into 2 powers when they created the Influence Force power!
Now look me in the eyes while I wave my hand before you and say, in a suggestive tone: "The Influence Social Upgrade is not the Mind Trick you think it is!"
I said it would be compelling...
Yes, all of Influence, including the "social Check" upgrade IS absolutely a mind affecting power. That is what Influence is . Influence literally influences the mind of the target . That is what it does. How it influences the target's mind is what the different Control upgrades are for, but all of them are about influencing the mind of the target. Hence the name " Influence ". Qui Gon used Influence combined with Negotiation with Boss Nass. He negotiated with Boss Nass for Jar Jar's release as well as transport to Theed. Thus, he was definitely using the Social Checks upgrade. He was not trying to change Boss Nass' thoughts, nor his emotional state. He was negotiating with him and he was using the "Mind Trick" to help him do it. That is the Social Checks upgrade, by its very definition in the book. Therefore, The "Mind Trick" covers all of the Influence power, not just the thoughts/emotions upgrade.
I just influenced your mind by giving you this sentence to read.
Doesn't mean I magically forced my will on yours.
3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:I just influenced your mind by giving you this sentence to read.
Doesn't mean I magically forced my will on yours.
No, but the Force Power Influence does . It is specifically a mind affecting power , by its very nature. That is what the power does in all of its incarnation. That's why the colloquial term "mind trick" was applied to the whole power in the book, not to the thoughts/emotions upgrade specifically. Even going by the Wiki article, the "mind Trick" is simply the ability to use the Force to influence the minds of others. To quote the very first sentence of said article:
Quote
That is what the Force Power Influence does in all of its incarnations. Whether it be directly altering how a person thinks or feels (the thoughts/emotions upgrade), making them more agreeable to your arguments in order to get them to do what you want (the social checks upgrade), or dominate their minds into unconsciousness (the base power). All of those upgrades are about influencing the person's mind to the benefit of the Force user.
When Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and Anakin Skywalker were using The "mind Trick" collectively against Cad Bane, they were also coercing him into giving them the information they sought. They were using the Coercion skill combined with Influence . That is the Social Checks upgrade at work, not the Thoughts/Emotions upgrade, yet the wiki article still refers to it as a use of the "mind trick".
1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:They were using the Coercion skill combined with Influence . That is the Social Checks upgrade at work, not the Thoughts/Emotions upgrade, yet the wiki article still refers to it as a use of the "mind trick".
The wiki calls it mind trick because game mechanics don't mean squat outside the game.
14 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:As for Rey, Charm is the closest social skill we can use. Also, it should be noted that Charm includes " appealing to a person's better nature ", not just sweet-talking or seduction. That is what we can interpret here. To quote:
QuoteAppeals to a target's better nature-even if it does not exist-generally requires a character to use Charm. These sorts of requests may require the target to go out of his way to aid the characters without any hope of remuneration.
This is what we have here. She convinces the storm trooper to release her and drop his weapon, with obviously no hope for remuneration. So, in this case, it's like a the hypnotic "Charm" of a snake charmer or vampire.
No, not buying it!
When Rey says: "You will remove these restraints...", she is not asking , she is commanding.
So why don't you suggest that Rey is using
Leadership,
which is a Skill that is all about commanding?
Or else I can just save us both a lot of time by telling you that the Skill being used is Discipline.
In this scene, we have a battle of wills between Rey and the stormtrooper. And this is always handled in Star Wars RPG as an opposed Discipline check.
And this is one more good reason why we know that the Mind Trick Upgrade is being used, not the Social Check Upgrade.
1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:Even going by the Wiki article, the "mind Trick" is simply the ability to use the Force to influence the minds of others. To quote the very first sentence of said article:
Quote
I'm glad you quoted the wiki, saves me doing it. Notice how close the wiki description is to the Mind Trick Upgrade on page 295 of FaD:
QuoteControl Upgrade: To gain the ability to alter the thoughts and emotions of a living target with whom he is engaged, the user makes a ...
This is the only aspect of Influence that is described as influencing the thoughts of the opponent, exactly like the definition from the wiki!
In other words, this upgrade is "the mind trick".
Edited by JabberwockiWrong. The emotion/thoughts upgrade does not cover getting people to do specific tasks. It specifically covers changing someone's thoughts or emotions. Rey was not changing the trooper's thoughts nor emotions. She was making him do what she wanted.
The "mind trick" entails the entire Influence power.
Edited by Tramp Graphics35 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:Rey was not changing the trooper's thoughts nor emotions
She rewrites his thought processes. The scene could not be any more explicit on that if Kylo popped into frame, Lego style, holding up a cue card that says "this is a mind trick".
9 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:
10 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:Rey was not changing the trooper's thoughts nor emotions
She rewrites his thought processes. The scene could not be any more explicit on that if Kylo popped into frame, Lego style, holding up a cue card that says "this is a mind trick".
Exactly! That is why the trooper (and others that are affected by the mind trick ) repeats what is said to him! This shows she has taken control of his thought processes.
Check it out for yourself:
Hands up who believes Rey is using Charm here ... Honestly @Tramp Graphics , I don't think anyone in the Star Wars universe is agreeing with you.