Return of the Jedi IS canon, and as I mentioned, Luke was not using the Emotion upgrade; he was using the Social Checks upgrade . And Jabba resisted it completely . Not only that, but he knew Luke was trying to use the Force to influence him in an attempt to make him more agreeable,

5 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

But the immunity doesn't apply in the first place. You're expanding its reach beyond what is reasonable.

Then I'm unreasonable, and I am the GM at my table, and the topic would closed. Door behind you isn't locked either.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Return of the Jedi IS canon, and as I mentioned, Luke was not using the Emotion upgrade; he was using the Social Checks upgrade . And Jabba resisted it completely . Not only that, but he knew Luke was trying to use the Force to influence him in an attempt to make him more agreeable,

He explicitly used mind trick on Jabba and the others. Bib Fortuna repeats his words, the same way others repeat a Jedi's words when mind trick has been used on other occasions. It's even called out in the dialogue by Jabba.

I don't think we ever see anything like the social check upgrade in the movies, actually.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

He explicitly used mind trick on Jabba and the others. Bib Fortuna repeats his words, the same way others repeat a Jedi's words when mind trick has been used on other occasions. It's even called out in the dialogue by Jabba.

I don't think we ever see anything like the social check upgrade in the movies, actually.

Luke used the Emotion upgrade on Bib Fprtuna making him believe something untrue. With Jabba, he tried to make him free Han and Leia, not change his emotional state, not deceive him, to convince him to do something . That is using a Social Check . And he used Influence to try and make Jabba see things his way .

Luke only starts negotiating with Jabba after the mind trick fails on him, and the movies never give any indication that oratory or negotiation can be enhanced by the Force.

15 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

He explicitly used mind trick on Jabba and the others. Bib Fortuna repeats his words, the same way others repeat a Jedi's words when mind trick has been used on other occasions. It's even called out in the dialogue by Jabba.

I don't think we ever see anything like the social check upgrade in the movies, actually.

I believe you saw Qui-Gonn use the social check upgrade repeatedly. With the Gungan Boss in council (trying that with a mind trick could get an angry mob after you when he realizes he was duped). And generally any time he talked to someone. His smooth, calm manner that always got people to see his side. Which is why he was selected for the trade negotiations in the first place.

You can't really tell, because it is subtle, but I would say Obi-wan trying to convince Luke to join him was an attempt to use the power, but Luke resisted.

I think that's just Qui-Gon's style of talking. He's a seasoned negotiator after all.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

From the New Essential Guide to Alien Species:

Further:

It should be noted in particular that Luke was not trying to change Jabba's emotions, nor make him believe something untrue. He was trying to negotiate with him and persuade him to turn over Han and the others, thus, in game terms using the Social Checks upgrade to "boost his Negotiation and/or Charm checks", not the emotion upgrade . And the power still did not work on Jabba.

From The Jedi Path :

Nkt one of the books you mentioned are canon, none of these non canon books you quote mention immunity for living creatures. Even the one living creature that is immune according to the rules of the game is no longer canon, as Dave Filoni confirmed that Mr Lucas abhored the idea that a living creature coud live apart from the force as the force was and is intrinsic with life, this was discussed at celebrations when they introduced Thrawn.

You also are making a lot of assumptions here , In this one example you are saying thwt he isnt using the Jedi Mind Trick, something he immediately did before with Bib Fortuna, so here we are with Luke having just done the Mind trick on Fortuna a few times then immediately goes to try what appears to be a similar technique on Jabba. Im going to go one better and give you the best canon example of Hutt Immunity which is found in Return of the Jedi.

Luke let all the rest of the motley horde that surrounded him melt into the recesses of his consciousness, to let Jabba fill his mind totally. “You will bring Captain Solo and the Wookiee to me.” Jabba smiled grimly. “Your mind powers will not work on me, boy. I am not affected by your human thought pattern.” Then, as an afterthought: “I was killing your kind when being a Jedi meant something.”

Definitely doesn't sound like a negotiation to me. Also note this is the best example of Hutt "immunity" and here we have Luke, whose training in the Jedi Mind Trick , according to Canon is so far, at this time very limited, as there is so little canon material concerning Luke after training with Yoda (which had no coverage when it came to mind trick training) and starting Return of the Jedi. And here we have Jabba saying that he is not affected by "human thought pattern", note at no point does Jabba say he is immune to jedi mind tricks. So you can guess away as much as you like but he could equally just have a high willpower.

Another example of the jedi mind trick where it failed was when Mace Windu, Obi Wan and Anakin Skywalker tried to Mind Trick Cad Bane

Given the power of these three jedi working together is it any surprise that Luke failed with Jabba , whatever the reason. So please can you back up your unsubstantiated claims when you do. Also before making claims that you are getting this info from canon it would be better knowkng first what is and what isnt Canon, The Jedi Path book was almost Canon but was one of the last books released before the Disney buyout , and it was only after this that other media was considered canon outside of the films and the Clone Wars, and the novels of the films, so prior to Disney if it wasnt in the novels , the films or the Clone Wars then it wasnt Canon , so every book you are likely to quote at me isnt Canon. Apparently Lucas was fine with people writing material but unless it was done or approved by him it didnt make it.

Yes this came a s a shock to me also ,as I grew ul in an era when the books /comics / RPG sourebooks seemed to have the approval of Lucasfilm when in fact they didnt. If the world you or your GM treats this info as the history of your campaigns, then fine feel free, most of the FFG material is taken from legends, however when they put rules in the book, where the wording IMO is pretty darn clear then I take those rules as given and if someone asks me Ill tell them to the best of my ability. Im not using guesswork and if I am I will say so, If I am corrected and I agree I am wrong Ill admit it for example , it took me more than a few read throughs to figure out why influence doesnt work on Scathing Tirade, I had downgrading dice wrong going back a long time ago. I am absolutely certain here that influence is a force ability tree that has 3 related but different ways that you can use the abilities on there

The basic power which is essentially a pseudo combat ability (I say pseudo because it can be used outside of combat)

The Control upgrade which is found on the right hand side of the tree, which is without doubt the "Jedi Mind Trick" which is used to fool people into believing what you say, or changing their emotional state of mind.

Finally we have the last Control upgrade where it also falls under another ser of Force Abilities and talents within the game that are all worded identically (with one exception I know of), all of which serve one purpose and that is to allow you to use force dice to allow you to trade pips for either success or advantage on what is , when you get right down to it , a skill check. The rules for how the skill check itself works are governed by the skills (and also the rules under COMBINED FORCE POWER CHECKS on PAGE 281 of the F&D core book). Thus far the following skills are covered

Enhance force ability tree - Resilience, Athletics, Brawl, Coordination, Piloting-space , Piloting -planetary.

Enhanced Leader talent, which specifically increases Leadership

Intuitive Shot - Ranged Light and Ranged Heavy

Intuitive Strike - Not linked to a specific skill as such, but is Intuitive Shot but only Planetary scale weapons. Im guessing, tying it to Gunnery resulted in something the werent happy with.

Foresee - Initiative control upgrade applies to initiative checks but since advantage is pointless in comparison with advantage isnt an option here, and is the one ability/talent worded differently as a result.

Influence - works with all social checks

Force Connection - Survival

I have probably missed some , but all of these work as the base skill do. Droids dont get immunity to getting shot at using intuitive shot.

Why have them all worded identically but have the social checks work differently from the rest.

This all being said a GM can rule however they choose, but RAW (and canon) I stand by all Ive said (with the possible exception of the dark side pips where I am comfortably xertain but still concede thst RAI could be that you would need dark side pips for coercion etc. I would certainly rule that using coercion or deception is conflict worthy in these situations.

28 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Luke only starts negotiating with Jabba after the mind trick fails on him, and the movies never give any indication that oratory or negotiation can be enhanced by the Force.

Luke's "mind Trick" wasn't an attempt to mislead Jabba nor change his emotional state. HE was trying to convince him to release Han and the others. Remember what he says when trying to use Influence on Jabba:

Quote

You will bring Captain Solo and the Wookiee to me.

That's a command, He is telling Jabba to do something for him. That's a Social Check. He's not trying to make Jabbe believe something untrue. He's not trying to change Jabbas' emotional state. He's saying do something.

20 minutes ago, Edgookin said:

I believe you saw Qui-Gonn use the social check upgrade repeatedly. With the Gungan Boss in council (trying that with a mind trick could get an angry mob after you when he realizes he was duped). And generally any time he talked to someone. His smooth, calm manner that always got people to see his side. Which is why he was selected for the trade negotiations in the first place.

You can't really tell, because it is subtle, but I would say Obi-wan trying to convince Luke to join him was an attempt to use the power, but Luke resisted.

3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I think that's just Qui-Gon's style of talking. He's a seasoned negotiator after all.

Qui Gon was using Influence on Boos Nass. And it was the Social Check upgrade. Once again, no attempt to change emotions nor make him believe something untrue. He wanted Boss Nass to do something, that's a Negotiation, Leadrship, or Charm check, a Social Check.

1 minute ago, syrath said:

Nkt one of the books you mentioned are canon, none of these non canon books you quote mention immunity for living creatures. Even the one living creature that is immune according to the rules of the game is no longer canon, as Dave Filoni confirmed that Mr Lucas abhored the idea that a living creature coud live apart from the force as the force was and is intrinsic with life, this was discussed at celebrations when they introduced Thrawn.

You also are making a lot of assumptions here , In this one example you are saying thwt he isnt using the Jedi Mind Trick, something he immediately did before with Bib Fortuna, so here we are with Luke having just done the Mind trick on Fortuna a few times then immediately goes to try what appears to be a similar technique on Jabba. Im going to go one better and give you the best canon example of Hutt Immunity which is found in Return of the Jedi.

Luke let all the rest of the motley horde that surrounded him melt into the recesses of his consciousness, to let Jabba fill his mind totally. “You will bring Captain Solo and the Wookiee to me.” Jabba smiled grimly. “Your mind powers will not work on me, boy. I am not affected by your human thought pattern.” Then, as an afterthought: “I was killing your kind when being a Jedi meant something.”

Definitely doesn't sound like a negotiation to me. Also note this is the best example of Hutt "immunity" and here we have Luke, whose training in the Jedi Mind Trick , according to Canon is so far, at this time very limited, as there is so little canon material concerning Luke after training with Yoda (which had no coverage when it came to mind trick training) and starting Return of the Jedi. And here we have Jabba saying that he is not affected by "human thought pattern", note at no point does Jabba say he is immune to jedi mind tricks. So you can guess away as much as you like but he could equally just have a high willpower.

Another example of the jedi mind trick where it failed was when Mace Windu, Obi Wan and Anakin Skywalker tried to Mind Trick Cad Bane

Given the power of these three jedi working together is it any surprise that Luke failed with Jabba , whatever the reason. So please can you back up your unsubstantiated claims when you do. Also before making claims that you are getting this info from canon it would be better knowkng first what is and what isnt Canon, The Jedi Path book was almost Canon but was one of the last books released before the Disney buyout , and it was only after this that other media was considered canon outside of the films and the Clone Wars, and the novels of the films, so prior to Disney if it wasnt in the novels , the films or the Clone Wars then it wasnt Canon , so every book you are likely to quote at me isnt Canon. Apparently Lucas was fine with people writing material but unless it was done or approved by him it didnt make it.

Yes this came a s a shock to me also ,as I grew ul in an era when the books /comics / RPG sourebooks seemed to have the approval of Lucasfilm when in fact they didnt. If the world you or your GM treats this info as the history of your campaigns, then fine feel free, most of the FFG material is taken from legends, however when they put rules in the book, where the wording IMO is pretty darn clear then I take those rules as given and if someone asks me Ill tell them to the best of my ability. Im not using guesswork and if I am I will say so, If I am corrected and I agree I am wrong Ill admit it for example , it took me more than a few read throughs to figure out why influence doesnt work on Scathing Tirade, I had downgrading dice wrong going back a long time ago. I am absolutely certain here that influence is a force ability tree that has 3 related but different ways that you can use the abilities on there

The basic power which is essentially a pseudo combat ability (I say pseudo because it can be used outside of combat)

The Control upgrade which is found on the right hand side of the tree, which is without doubt the "Jedi Mind Trick" which is used to fool people into believing what you say, or changing their emotional state of mind.

Finally we have the last Control upgrade where it also falls under another ser of Force Abilities and talents within the game that are all worded identically (with one exception I know of), all of which serve one purpose and that is to allow you to use force dice to allow you to trade pips for either success or advantage on what is , when you get right down to it , a skill check. The rules for how the skill check itself works are governed by the skills (and also the rules under COMBINED FORCE POWER CHECKS on PAGE 281 of the F&D core book). Thus far the following skills are covered

Enhance force ability tree - Resilience, Athletics, Brawl, Coordination, Piloting-space , Piloting -planetary.

Enhanced Leader talent, which specifically increases Leadership

Intuitive Shot - Ranged Light and Ranged Heavy

Intuitive Strike - Not linked to a specific skill as such, but is Intuitive Shot but only Planetary scale weapons. Im guessing, tying it to Gunnery resulted in something the werent happy with.

Foresee - Initiative control upgrade applies to initiative checks but since advantage is pointless in comparison with advantage isnt an option here, and is the one ability/talent worded differently as a result.

Influence - works with all social checks

Force Connection - Survival

I have probably missed some , but all of these work as the base skill do. Droids dont get immunity to getting shot at using intuitive shot.

Why have them all worded identically but have the social checks work differently from the rest.

This all being said a GM can rule however they choose, but RAW (and canon) I stand by all Ive said (with the possible exception of the dark side pips where I am comfortably xertain but still concede thst RAI could be that you would need dark side pips for coercion etc. I would certainly rule that using coercion or deception is conflict worthy in these situations.

If you read my previous posts, I specifically stated "both old and new " Canon. And, as I also said, Luke was using the Social Check upgrade on Jabba, not the emotion upgrade. And Jabba resisted it completely. And that is part of the new Canon still. Once again, the Social Check upgrade is written the way it is because of how opposed skill checks are done in this system . And, in fact, the opening text for Influence specifically refers to the entire power colloquially, as the "Mind Trick", not just the emotional upgrade. In fact, nowhere in the text strictly for the Emotion upgrade is that specific upgrade referred to as the Mind Trick. It is Influence as a whole which is the Mind Trick, not just the Emotion upgrade.

For the record old canon was the films , the clone wars and the novels of the films, everything else was considered "legends" including the previous RPGs, even at the time, it was only after Disney bought them over that a cohesive multi media representation of canon came in where comics , novels etc were consider official lore. The books you mentioned never have been canon , old, new or otherwise. It only got the legends sub class after the Disney buy out to make it clear it wasnt canon. The misconception though was that the material ever was canon.

Going back ,you must be quite conceited to read that one paragraph and to be able to assume that this exactly matches the social skill upgrade of influence, I certainly wouldnt be brave enough to say definitively one way or the other, but considering the power wasnt codified at the time , the social upgrade didnt exist until FFG put it in.

Also you state that influence is all the Jedi Mind Trick, well the rule book disagrees with you as it specifically states the basic power isnt, as it has one function only and that is to strain the mind, not to trick it and it calls this out in its description. The other control upgrade even calls out that that particular upgrade is the Jedi Mind Trick, no where in the rules does it say the whole influence power is.

7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Luke's "mind Trick" wasn't an attempt to mislead Jabba nor change his emotional state. HE was trying to convince him to release Han and the others. Remember what he says when trying to use Influence on Jabba:

That's a distinction that only exists in the rules, not the movies. What Luke did was the mind trick. Jabba even calls it that in the movie.

Quote

That's a command, He is telling Jabba to do something for him. That's a Social Check. He's not trying to make Jabbe believe something untrue. He's not trying to change Jabbas' emotional state. He's saying do something.

No, that's him failing at mind-tricking Jabba. He uses the exact same tone he used when mind-tricking Bib Fortuna.

Quote

Qui Gon was using Influence on Boos Nass.

Please cite a canon source stating this.

And a real one, this time.

12 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Quote

You will bring Captain Solo and the Wookiee to me.

That's a command, He is telling Jabba to do something for him. That's a Social Check. He's not trying to make Jabbe believe something untrue. He's not trying to change Jabbas' emotional state. He's saying do something.

In the video example above they say:

"You will take us to the holocron."

The identical sentence structure used by Luke in the quote above!

So, according to you: Mace Windu, Obi Wan and Anakin Skywalker are just doing a Social Check here ... !?

Sorry, but you are really going to ridiculous lengths here to "prove" your points.

These are ALL Jedi Mind Trick attempts. Every Star Wars fan has always known this!

There is really not the remotest chance that the author, or anyone else involved in the production, considered these sentences to be some kind of negotiation!!?

That's the one thing, the other thing is: the fact that the attempt fails actually tells us nothing!

Because, in game (Star Wars RPG) and in the "real life" (films and other canon) both the Mind Trick Upgrade, and the Social Check Upgrade can fail against anyone, even a stormtrooper! Especially, of course, if you are facing an opponent with much higher Discipline (or Cool, or whatever opposing Skill is relevant).

So the failure does not prove immunity, or anything else. It is just a useless line of argument.

Rey uses mind trick with that same sentence structure, too.

54 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Rey uses mind trick with that same sentence structure, too.

Yes, this is a good example.

She actually fails on the first attempt against the Stormtrooper. But when he gets closer, and is standing next to her, she actually succeeds.

When I saw that I thought: hey, these guys have been reading the FaD Influence rules! LOL!

Although I'll admit that her first attempt probably failed for more reasons then just "out of range". It was just funny how the exact same thing could happen in a game.

I am getting a lot of entertainment out of this thread.

I can't help but think of the old addage that arguing with a rabid fan is like arguing with a wall. No matter how much that you show it is wrong it is unwilling to budge or face any other direction.

I shall continue to follow very enthusiastically.

27 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

I shall continue to follow very enthusiastically

That's a bold move.

It used to be that stormtroopers couldn't be bribed or otherwise compromised. the pre-Saga Revised Edition of the d20 game had that, IIRC.

Somehow, despite being true then for that game, it isn't true everywhere, everytime.

Canon is fluid. It might even be a superfluid.

Ive got something for you

Everytime you hear someone use the Jedi Mind Trick they use an assumptive close (it's a sales technique, for those who dont know) , it follows that anytime you see someone use an assumptive close that they are also force sensitive and they are trying to use the Jedi Mind Trick. Is that how logic works? okay maybe not.

9 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Quote

Qui Gon was using Influence on Boos Nass.

Please cite a canon source stating this.

I just watched the scene in question again. You can clearly see Qui Gon doing the mind trick hand gesture both when he says "Then speed us on our way" and "We could use a transport". Additionally, in the first case, Nass responds "Weesa gonna speed yous away". The verbiage changed, but he was essentially repeating the command back; just like the stormtrooper in Mos Eisley in ANH, Bib Fortuna in RotJ, and the other stormtrooper in TFA.

26 minutes ago, Vorzakk said:

I just watched the scene in question again. You can clearly see Qui Gon doing the mind trick hand gesture both when he says "Then speed us on our way" and "We could use a transport". Additionally, in the first case, Nass responds "Weesa gonna speed yous away". The verbiage changed, but he was essentially repeating the command back; just like the stormtrooper in Mos Eisley in ANH, Bib Fortuna in RotJ, and the other stormtrooper in TFA.

On this one I can help , from the canon The Phantom Menace novel

Before Obi-Wan could continue Qui-Gon stepped forward. "Then speed us on our way", he demanded, bringing up one hand in a casual motion, passing it smoothly before the Gungan chief's eyes in a quick invocation of Jedi mind power.

Also further in when he talks of Jar Jars and his life debt its says "invoking his Jedi Power once more" shortly after and because of the placement immediately after it is clear it is referring back to tnis paragraph. So it is used twice in this section, once to help them get transport and once to save Jar Jar, showing Jedi arent that wise.

Okay, looks like he mind tricked him, then. Cool.

16 hours ago, syrath said:

For the record old canon was the films , the clone wars and the novels of the films, everything else was considered "legends" including the previous RPGs, even at the time, it was only after Disney bought them over that a cohesive multi media representation of canon came in where comics , novels etc were consider official lore. The books you mentioned never have been canon , old, new or otherwise. It only got the legends sub class after the Disney buy out to make it clear it wasnt canon. The misconception though was that the material ever was canon.

Going back ,you must be quite conceited to read that one paragraph and to be able to assume that this exactly matches the social skill upgrade of influence, I certainly wouldnt be brave enough to say definitively one way or the other, but considering the power wasnt codified at the time , the social upgrade didnt exist until FFG put it in.

Also you state that influence is all the Jedi Mind Trick, well the rule book disagrees with you as it specifically states the basic power isnt, as it has one function only and that is to strain the mind, not to trick it and it calls this out in its description. The other control upgrade even calls out that that particular upgrade is the Jedi Mind Trick, no where in the rules does it say the whole influence power is.

Wrong . Under the old Canon, everything not labelled Infinities was canon . This had been repeatedly stated by both Leland Chee (original keeper of the LFL Holocron database) as well as then head of Lucasfilm Licensing, Sue Rostoni. Thus, those books have always been canon up until Disney decided to change things.

8 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Rey uses mind trick with that same sentence structure, too.

7 hours ago, Jabberwocki said:

Yes, this is a good example.

She actually fails on the first attempt against the Stormtrooper. But when he gets closer, and is standing next to her, she actually succeeds.

When I saw that I thought: hey, these guys have been reading the FaD Influence rules! LOL!

Although I'll admit that her first attempt probably failed for more reasons then just "out of range". It was just funny how the exact same thing could happen in a game.

1 hour ago, Vorzakk said:

I just watched the scene in question again. You can clearly see Qui Gon doing the mind trick hand gesture both when he says "Then speed us on our way" and "We could use a transport". Additionally, in the first case, Nass responds "Weesa gonna speed yous away". The verbiage changed, but he was essentially repeating the command back; just like the stormtrooper in Mos Eisley in ANH, Bib Fortuna in RotJ, and the other stormtrooper in TFA.

1 hour ago, syrath said:

On this one I can help , from the canon The Phantom Menace novel

Before Obi-Wan could continue Qui-Gon stepped forward. "Then speed us on our way", he demanded, bringing up one hand in a casual motion, passing it smoothly before the Gungan chief's eyes in a quick invocation of Jedi mind power.

Also further in when he talks of Jar Jars and his life debt its says "invoking his Jedi Power once more" shortly after and because of the placement immediately after it is clear it is referring back to tnis paragraph. So it is used twice in this section, once to help them get transport and once to save Jar Jar, showing Jedi arent that wise.

45 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Okay, looks like he mind tricked him, then. Cool.

Yep, and in every one of these cases, it's the Social Checks upgrade, not the emotion upgrade. In none of those examples is the Jedi in question trying to deceive the target nor change their emotional state. They're trying to get the target to do a specific task using a command, negotiation, charm, or other social skill.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

They're trying to get the target to do a specific task using a command, negotiation, charm, or other social skill.

It's not Social or Emotional . It's frelling Magic . They are Using The Force .

In essence, the words are but the verbal component of the spell they are casting.

The scenes cited predate the rpg game mechanics, and arguing about trying to retrofit them... is exactly what forums are for.

Carry on.

4 minutes ago, Edgehawk said:

It's not Social or Emotional . It's frelling Magic . They are Using The Force .

In essence, the words are but the verbal component of the spell they are casting.

The scenes cited predate the rpg game mechanics, and arguing about trying to retrofit them... is exactly what forums are for.

Carry on.

We're talking about the specific Control upgrades for the Influence Power in this game (F&D pages 294-295) determining which one was used by these individuals to support our arguments.