33 minutes ago, Fringer said:

And, as long as we have no other answer from the devs on the questions you ask here, I think we have to assume that Force Dice may be added to any Coercion/Charm/Deception/Leadership/Negotiatio n Check because the Control Upgrade says: " When making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation check, the Force user may roll an Influence Power check as part of his dice pool ". So it is not obvious that there is any exception to this rule.

Why should I speculate on what is an Action and what not in order to figure out whether the force dice are allowed or not?

It says "add to the pool", so I add to the pool...

Having them not work in talents like scathing tirade has been answered, and there are a number of ways this can be described, so you are clutching at straws here, only if the talent says you make a combined check. This is not in doubt, your GM can house rule it as they wish but RAW and RAI it doesnt work within talents. Im going to quote the sections you need

COMBINED FORCE POWER CHECKS

Some Force Powers and Force Talents require the character to make a Force power check that is combined with a skill check.

A force power check is an action, these talents are also actions, or even sometimes a maneuver, regardless you need to either take an action to do a combined power check based on this sentence alone, Force talents also tell you that you can make a combined power check.

This generally represents the character using Force abilities in conjuction with other skills. It also comes into play when the character's Force abilities may be opppsed by the skills of his target.

I guess this answers my earlier question about opposed checks.

When a character combines the Force power check with a standard skill check, he combines the Force Dice he would roll to make the Force power check with the dice he would roll to make the skill check.

Note that you ask to make the combined force check first then get to add your skill dice to the check. It is worded this way because you first ask to make a combined force check.

Relevant powers or talents specifically state when a combined skill check should take place.

ergo non relevant powers or talents do not benefit from combined skill checks.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Influence, by its very nature is a mind affecting power, it always has been, even before FFG got the license. Also, I just re-read the Influence power, and it's two upgrades, and nowhere does it say that the social upgrade affects large crowds. the opening text descriptions you refer to are examples of what a powerful Force user could do with the power as a whole, and the dangers involved. In fact, the specific examples given, (calming, or riling up a crowd) are examples of the "mind trick" power to affect the emotions of a large number of people. Think of the Social Checks upgrade as akin to the mesmerizing effect of the Force making the targets more suggestible to your arguments.

Influence yes, but why do you think it has to be direct? Indirectly effecting people by improving a social skill can just as well be considered to be influencing.

Anyway, if you really cannot see the point I am making then I guess this is a question for the devs. The two ways of playing this are so vastly different that they really make a huge difference to how effective the power is.

Certainly what you are suggesting does not allow even the most skilled force user (for example 6 Force Points) to affect what I would call a large crowd because you can get a maximum of 3 extra people per pip. And every pip used to increase the size of the "crowd" is one less pip that can be used to do the actual job.

So even if you think 20 is a large crowd, it is most likely you will have no pips left over to actually sway them anyway.

Nevertheless:

What speaks for your understanding is that it treats all control upgrades of the power the same (i.e. Range and Magnitude Upgrade and the Special Rule applies to both). And it includes simple rules like Deception = Dark side (assuming your are a proponent of this).

What speaks for my understanding is that there are many "clues" (all mentioned in this thread at some point or other) in the text that suggest that this is not what was intended by the devs.

Perhaps when they speak of a large crowd this is just "fluff", and perhaps the similarity to the Enhance power upgrades is just coincidence. If this is the case, then your understanding may be more likely correct.

But, I do not think these indicators in the text, and others, can be ignored.

11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not true. They re very relevant because of the precedents the've set, as well as what canon (both old and new) established.

This game, like any before, has its own assumptions. All you're doing by bringing in baggage from other games is making things murkier.

And canon and rules are two separate issues. They don't always agree with each other. The game mechanics aren't an engine for determining and simulating canon. They're an engine for having fun. All other considerations are secondary to that.

Force power breakdown page 282 F&D core

Control: Control upgrades add new efrects to force powers or modify existing powers (adding or changing the way the force sensitive spends Force points)

Example enhance 's basic power allows you to make combined power check with resilience., the control upgrade allows you to change this ability so that you can use it to Force Leap. This does not allow you to enhance the basic ability but offers a completely different effect to the basic power.

The major difference with influence is that 1/ it is given the name influence, when it's basic ability doesn't even influence. The namse of this particular force ability is taken from its most well known ability which is the jedi mind trick, which specifically is the control upgrade described in paragraph 2 of page 295.

The basic power is a strain damage ability that has no way of influencing anyone , similarly using the jedi mind trick isnt an extension of this either , as you dont cause strain damage to your opponent inthe same check check.

So influence has 3 force powers under its banner , each separate from each other (although some control upgrades , upgrade other control or basic powers as per description.

The particular control upgrade we are arguing over is not the jedi mind trick nor does it cause strain , it upgrades your social skills by allowing you to add your force dice, the book describes this as making yourself more charismatic and enabling you to enhance your arguments so that your skill checks are made better, in exactly the same way that enhance adds force dice to a brawl check, or intuitive shot adds force dice to ranged (light) or ranged (heavy) checks. They are even all worded identically, whether it is a talent or force power. These combined force checks are still at their heart skill checks and you are using your skill check to do the work and the skill check works in exactly the same way.

41 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Influence, by its very nature is a mind affecting power, it always has been, even before FFG got the license.

For me, what counts is what these rules are actually saying.

Any other sources cannot really be used to win the argument because we have no idea what the devs intended.

The devs may have decided that Influence in FaD is a bit different to whatever came before simply because that way it fits better in the larger framework of force powers which they had already constructed. They certainly have the creative freedom to do this!

So since there is nothing in the description of the Influence power that states that it is "by very nature a mind affecting power", the doorway is open to allow other types of Influence.

30 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The problem with that is that droids, and certain other species (such as Hutts) are immune to Influence . Period. Therefore, no upgrade of that power can work, against them, including the Social Checks upgrade . That's what it means to be completely immune to mind-effecting powers. There is no exception. No version of the Influence power, in any iteration of the game, has ever worked on Droids.

What you say is consistent with your belief that all aspects of the Influence power directly affect the mind of the opponent. If that were the case, then yes, droids and other force immune species would not be affected by any aspect of the Influence power.

However, it is plain to me that the FFG devs decided to add a different type of upgrade (the "Social Enhancement" Upgrade) to the power despite what may be cannon of previous precedence.

The "Social Enhancement" Upgrade uses the same wording as the Enhance basic power (FaD page 288). In addition, the Control Upgrade description specifically speaks about "enhancing arguments and charisma via the force" (FaD page 295). This makes it clear to me that we are talking about an "enhance" type of upgrade, and not the direct mind affecting type that the other 2 usages of the power represent.

It's not just my interpretation. Canon explicitly establishes that Droids, Hutts, and certain other species are completely immune to this power , and other powers like it. This must cover all upgrades of this power as well, including the Social Check upgrade. It should also be noted that the original name of this power (at least for RPGs)was Affect Mind (not "Mind Trick", which was a colloquial term used to describe it's effects). And it is still a mind effecting power, regardless of the upgrade used. The Social Check upgrade (from an in universe standpoint) works by making the targets more suggestible to what you say, to make them see you as more charismatic, intimidating, etc. The game mechanics work the way they do because that is the easiest way to simulate this effect within the context of how skill checks are done in this system . Therefore it is not really and "enhance" type ability from an "in universe" canon perspective.

also, yes, the power does indeed say that it is a mind affecting power. In fact, it says it in the very first sentence of the opening text. To quote:

Quote

The ability to influence the minds of others is not a thing to be taken lightly.

All uses of this power are based upon this very fact. It is a Mind Affecting power. That is what it does.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It's not just my interpretation. Canon explicitly establishes that Droids, Hutts, and certain other species are completely immune to this power ,

In what canon material does it state this, so are you too telling me that hutts, droids etc are immune to all 3 abilities of the power, since this power has 3 possible effects to choose from once fully upgraded.

1/ Basic power , The most basic form of Influence does not allow the Force user to shape or guide the thoughts of others. He can merely strain their mind , inflicting stress and exhaustion. The basic effect has one effect that can be triggered multiple times on the same or different target.

The user spends Force pip to stress the mind of one living target he is engaged with, inflicting 1 strain, the user may activate this multiple times , increasing the strain by 1 each time.

This is nothing like the jedi mind trick as seen in the films and the only canon reference that you see this happen afaik is when Quigon tries to calm Jar Jar in the bongo and knocks him out. Note that RAW this affects living targets so droids are indeed immune to this. Where in canon is immunity to this power mentioned anywhere except for droids since the power isnt referenced in any canon material beyond this

2/ Control upgrade - to gain the ability to alter the thoughts and emotions of a living target with whom he is engaged, the user makes an opposed discipline check against the target as part of the pool to activate the power. The user must spend a force pip and he must succeed in the check to force the target to adopt an emotional state such as fear, friendliness, or hatred, or to believe something untrue ( "these are not the droids you are looking for")

This is the power that is so well known throughout the films, it's not used as often as you would think and one of the only canon attempts that failed is where Quigon against Wato who said that mind tricks dont work on him, only money. Not exactly a canon source, and not even a reliable one at that, however one canon reference has this (Star Wars databank)

No, it works by making them more suggestible so that you apple more likable (or scary, depending upon your ends) to them. Also, Even the Hutt's game stats specifically state that they are immune to mind affecting powers (such as Influence ).

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it works by making them more suggestible so that you apple more likable (or scary, depending upon your ends) to them. Also, Even the Hutt's game stats specifically state that they are immune to mind affecting powers (such as Influence ).

No it doesnt make them more suggesible, youve pulled that description fro the air.

Even if it does make you appear more likeable or scary as you describe, immunity to mind affecting powers wouldnt apply since this is affecting you. What it does do is "enhance your arguments and make you more charismatic". Either way it improves your own abilities, your target would only get immunity if they were immune to the social check used (FWIW Hutts get nobody's fool),it doesnt make immune to this.

When replying please quote book, page number and the phrase that is pertinent verbatim.

1 minute ago, syrath said:

duplicate

Mind Trick = the force altering some poor soul's thoughts.

Social Enhancement = The Force guiding your own words.

....As you were, continue with the bloodbath.

Probably be easier to just submit the question and move onto contemplating some other aspect of life's vicissitudes......

4 hours ago, syrath said:

This part of the power does not target the target of the check in any way, if the power was used to sway the mind of the target in any way or to make them believe something that different from what they believe, then you would b going back to using power 2/ and no social skill check would even be needed as you just use the power on them and a discipline check not your social skill check.

This is a very good point, and shows that there must be a fundamental difference between the 2 upgrades. The Mind Trick works by affecting the mind. The other upgrade works by enhancing the social Skill that you are using it with.

If this is not the case, then both are actually a Mind Trick (as @syrath says), and the Social Upgrade is just a slight variation in the mechanics.

And, in this case, there would be no need for the Social Upgrade, particularly if I have high Discipline. If both have the same restrictions, the Mind Trick Upgrade is obviously much better!

So, for example, why bother to use Leadership to make an inspiring speech to the troops when you can just "mind trick" them instead?

If I understand you correctly: all the restrictions that apply to the Mind Trick Upgrade also apply to the Social Upgrade. This means you are limited by Range, the number of people you can effect, and the duration of the effect . All require additional pips to increase the effect from the basic: engaged range, one target and 1 round duration.

And then, after spending pips (and a Destiny Point in the case of Coercion and Deception) to get all that, if you don't have any pips left over you would have been better off just doing a normal social check which is not subject to all these limitations.

The problem starts when we assume that, just because the power is called Influence , that all aspects of the power must Affect Mind directly . But there is no way of knowing (without getting a direct answer) if the devs actually intended this.

I agree that the opening text of the power: " The ability to influence the minds of others is not a thing to be taken lightly" (page 294 FaD), speaks of a directly manipulation of the mind. But in the sentence after this the text reads: "Misuse of the ability, colloquuilly known as a "mind trick", is a sure step on the path to the dark side".

Which makes it clear that the warning in the first sentence is referring to the "mind trick" upgrade . And the first upgrade described on page 295 is obviously the Mind Trick power because they give the famous example: "these are not the droids you are looking for" !

How can I make this more clear: the first Control Upgrade described in the rules is the classic Jedi Mind Trick!!!

By equal measure, the other 2 aspects of the power are not the Mind Trick , they are something new. Something we actually have not seen in any of the movies (perhaps because there is no way for us to see when the force is used to enhance a social skill, but the basic mind stressing power would be obvious).

So we really have to get away from the idea that the entire Influence power is just the classic "mind trick" in slightly different forms . It is not, the FFG devs have really struck out and did there own thing with Influence. However, it does include the classic mind trick power.

27 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Probably be easier to just submit the question and move onto contemplating some other aspect of life's vicissitudes......

If I understood @syrath correctly, he did submit the question, but has not received any answer.

But yes, it would be nice to hear directly from the devs on this one.

I am pretty sure that I have a correct understanding of the rules as they are written, but unfortunately that is no guarantee that that it is what the devs actually intended...!

None of which is really particularly important. Frankly the answer will read something like, "This is what is intended, but....the Force rules are left open intentionally for each GM and PCs to interpret to their own liking...blahblahblah'. The bottom line is the Force is magic in RPG terms, and Mary Sue power at will in story telling terms. It will do what the various authors need/want it to do when they want it to.

My personal opinion is that it I wouldn't allow it to be used to by pass a droid or species immunity to Force powers ability. Any upgrade originating from a source that a target is invulnerable to seems fairly unambiguous to me in that it wouldn't work.

Perfect example of where the GM needs to be the GM and make a decision imo.

54 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

None of which is really particularly important. Frankly the answer will read something like, "This is what is intended, but....the Force rules are left open intentionally for each GM and PCs to interpret to their own liking...blahblahblah'. The bottom line is the Force is magic in RPG terms, and Mary Sue power at will in story telling terms. It will do what the various authors need/want it to do when they want it to.

My personal opinion is that it I wouldn't allow it to be used to by pass a droid or species immunity to Force powers ability. Any upgrade originating from a source that a target is invulnerable to seems fairly unambiguous to me in that it wouldn't work.

Perfect example of where the GM needs to be the GM and make a decision imo.

No doubt you are right. And I would certainly accept a ruling like that. Of course this is exactly the kind of decision a GM is there to make.

The problem only really starts when the GM gets it "wrong", and you find yourself unable to use a power because of the restrictions (or misinterpretation) being placed.

For example, is the social upgrade here restricted by range, number of targets and duration, like the other aspects of the power?

If range applies, so do the others, and this upgrade may quickly becomes useless.

Sometimes a word from the devs can really help to clear this up and either convince a GM or otherwise have the player simple accept that the power is "useless" (at least in his opinion).

I have been gaming for a while, and I have seen plenty of instances of both. And it is not all bad for players. I save a bunch of XP by avoiding useless (or near useless) powers...

But sometimes it is sad to see the potential for something really good just disappear, especially if the devs did actually intend something else.

5 hours ago, 2P51 said:

My personal opinion is that it I wouldn't allow it to be used to by pass a droid or species immunity to Force powers ability. Any upgrade originating from a source that a target is invulnerable to seems fairly unambiguous to me in that it wouldn't work.

Perfect example of where the GM needs to be the GM and make a decision imo.

I understand where you are coming from but I'm also seeing the other side of the argument. If Karen, my droid wife, asks me if her memory circuits are bloated I could either rely on my less than excellent natural skill and awkwardly tell her that they are fine. Or I could call upon the force to guide me and tell her that her memory circuits looks as good as the day I made her. In the 2nd case I am using influence to guide what I say without ever having to actually use the power against the target.

So, from this interpretation of the power, I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed against droids or over the radio. It also makes sense in the aspect of trying to influence a large crowd as the other portions of the power don't do this well.

I still wouldn't allow it even if you both made those claims for two reasons. It is still very potent regardless of my ruling and is in no way rendered useless, and it detracts from a significant benefit of a PC playing a droid which are a series of immunities.

As soon as someone starts filling in the the blanks as to why they're ability should be allowed against something that has a pretty clear immunity I think you're into rule lawyering and exploiting minutiae and that most certainly is said to be avoided by the RAW.

In regards to asking the devs not only would I not bother in this case, I wouldn't care what the answer is. The RAW are also very clear on this, the GM is the final arbiter. The Force rules are very vague overall and they need a firm hand by a GM in this game imo.

But the immunity doesn't apply in the first place. You're expanding its reach beyond what is reasonable.

13 hours ago, syrath said:

No it doesnt make them more suggesible, youve pulled that description fro the air.

Even if it does make you appear more likeable or scary as you describe, immunity to mind affecting powers wouldnt apply since this is affecting you. What it does do is "enhance your arguments and make you more charismatic". Either way it improves your own abilities, your target would only get immunity if they were immune to the social check used (FWIW Hutts get nobody's fool),it doesnt make immune to this.

When replying please quote book, page number and the phrase that is pertinent verbatim.

I disagree. It does not affect you. It affects your target . The issue is that the rules are written so that only the person taking action makes a roll, not the target. As such, the game mechanics have to apply the bonus to the user's roll. However, the actual effect (as provided by canon) is really applied to the target . It is a mind affecting power, not a self-enhancement power. Therefore, anyone immune to maind affecting powers, such as droids, and Hutts are immune . Period. You cannot use any form of the force power Influence against these types of target, and can gain no benefit from it when using it against these targets. They are immune to every one of its effects and upgrades. No use of Influence can work against them. This includes the Social Checks upgrade.

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

But the immunity doesn't apply in the first place. You're expanding its reach beyond what is reasonable.

Yes, it does apply. You cannot use Influence, or any of its upgrades at all against these targets.

32 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. It does not affect you. It affects your target . The issue is that the rules are written so that only the person taking action makes a roll, not the target. As such, the game mechanics have to apply the bonus to the user's roll. However, the actual effect (as provided by canon) is really applied to the target . It is a mind affecting power, not a self-enhancement power. Therefore, anyone immune to maind affecting powers, such as droids, and Hutts are immune . Period. You cannot use any form of the force power Influence against these types of target, and can gain no benefit from it when using it against these targets. They are immune to every one of its effects and upgrades. No use of Influence can work against them. This includes the Social Checks upgrade.

Please show me the canon source , it seems you cannot provide a page reference for the rules source. Also please even show me any canon source for any living creature being immune to the force.

36 minutes ago, syrath said:

Please show me the canon source , it seems you cannot provide a page reference for the rules source. Also please even show me any canon source for any living creature being immune to the force.

From the New Essential Guide to Alien Species:

Quote

Another unique trait of this species is its brain structure. While this is seemingly no more complex than that of an average human or other sentient species , Toydarians are able to resist attempts at mind control and Force domination .

--Taken from The New Essential Guide to Alien Species

Further:

Quote

Both Hutts and Toydarians possess varying degrees of mental strength that can make them immune to Jedi mind tricks. In an event from the year 4 A.B.Y. that has since become the stuff of legend, Luke Skywalker found himself unable to mentally persuade Jabba the Hutt to release Rebel prisoners, and had to resort to a backup plan.

A personal log of Darth Vader, recovered from his fortress on Vjun, revealed Vader’s disturbing perspective regarding Toydarians. It should be noted that Vader’s disposition may have been influenced by Anakin Skywalker’s relationship to Watto, the Toydarian junk dealer and slaver who was young Anakin’s “master” on Tatooine. Although Shmi Skywalker’s recovered journal suggests that Watto was a relatively benevolent master, it is conceivable that Vader’s memories of Watto were unfavorable. Furthermore, the identity of the “Toydarian subject” mentioned in Vader’s recordings remain unknown, but records from Tatooine preclude the possibility that it was Watto.

These creatures have become such an irritation that every time I see one I want to strike it down with my lightsaber. Be that as it may, I interviewed a Toydarian subject who showed a great amount of resistance to Force suggestion, up to the point that I created physical discomfort. I found that they can be easily intimidated by a demonstration of strength. And it proved relatively simple to cause it to expire, merely by making its existence extremely painful. Ultimately, though it showed a great degree of willpower, it was no match for the power of the Force.

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

It should be noted in particular that Luke was not trying to change Jabba's emotions, nor make him believe something untrue. He was trying to negotiate with him and persuade him to turn over Han and the others, thus, in game terms using the Social Checks upgrade to "boost his Negotiation and/or Charm checks", not the emotion upgrade . And the power still did not work on Jabba.

From The Jedi Path :

Quote

My specialty is alien biology, and as a Jedi I recognize that the fundamental unifier of all life is the Force. It is fascinating how the Force inspires such a variety of change and adaption, even allowing species to develop barriers that redirect the Force’s natural flow. Because such evolution can be found among recognized sentient beings, you should be able to identify these species on sight if you wish to use your Jedi abilities to their fullest.

Hutts You and your Master will probably run across a Hutt’s thugs long before you meet an actual Hutt, but don’t use mind tricks if you’re brought before their boss! Hutts are notoriously difficult to influence or read through the Force. Their elusiveness has been a struggle for the Jedi since our forebears left Tython.

Toydarians These fascinating beings have lighter-than-air gases in their bellies that enable flight in standard or less-than-standard gravities. But remember that Toydarians are resistant to mind tricks, illusions, and telepathic suggestions. They are well aware of this fact and boast that they can easily outsmart a Jedi. Do not haggle with a Toydarian vendor!

--Taken from The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

Not one of those talks about an immunity*. They all just mention a resistance, and a resistance can be overcome. So none of those support your argument.

Also, they've all been rendered null and void by the canon reboot anyway, and can't be used to determine what's what under the reign of the Mouse.

*hold on, one does, but qualifies it with a "may"; even that one isn't definitive

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, it does apply. You cannot use Influence, or any of its upgrades at all against these targets.

Saying so doesn't make it so. Not even when you bold it.