To conclude:

While Vader can be worthwhile in a game (friendly or competitive, it does not matter) the other available TIE Advanced pilots are not. So the TIE Advanced is not completely broken, it is overpriced by 2 (to 3) points. Even Vader is overpriced.

BUT its fair that the Imperial answer to the X-Wing shares the same base costs as the X-Wing. So there has to be a way to add more value to the Advanced, to be an even match for the X-Wing. Adding 1 firepover would outmatch the X-Wing - so this is not the way we are looking for. Adding a 2 point value (for 0 costs) for more reliability of its firepower 2 probably is the best way to impove the entire fighter line to match the X-Wing, without overpowering it (nor Vader).

In the end, the worst I will say about the Advanced, is that it was balanced with Vader in mind.

You got the point. It feels exactly like it. And if there were only Vader as available pilot for the TIE Advanced, nobody would probably care about the fact that the Advanced is overpriced by 2 points.

Maybe this is a serious design flaw. But at the time it was designed and tested the game was young, there where not many other fighters to compare - the testers probably don't had the time to test every aspect ... or at least they were unable to point their finger at the problem when it comes to the Advanced. And I don't think that they thought that this game would be this successful at this time.

Now the game had developed to wave 3, we (the customers) are able to point our fingers at the problem.

And even people like you say like it feels like they had Vader (only) in mind when it was balanced.

Vader's ability alone makes this ship pretty spiffy. I certainly intend to try and fly it more often once I get back to my playerbase.

And while it may be off topic, there IS a difference between canon and cannon. It's been popping up a lot lately. Just one of the little things that bothers me.

Maybe the Advanced should have a giant cannon...

I've love Vader with a HLC!

To conclude:

While Vader can be worthwhile in a game (friendly or competitive, it does not matter) the other available TIE Advanced pilots are not. So the TIE Advanced is not completely broken, it is overpriced by 2 (to 3) points. Even Vader is overpriced.

That is an overstatement, IMO. I'm quite positive I could win a local tournament with 2x Tie Advanced, either the double tempest + Jonus squad or a Vader + PtL Maarek squad. As for the larger national tournaments, that's harder to say. The only one I'll probably ever make it to Gen Con, and if the dice abandon you even once in an event that large you're out of contention for the finals. At most the Advanced is 1-2 points over costed, and how ever the dice swing during is game is going to determine the game way more than at most a 4 point swing...

@endgame. What you are saying is that you are willing to spend at least 50 points (no Jonus) to fire 2 missiles and then have a pair of ships that are pretty much dead weight after that?

Why not bring 2 cheaper bombers to do that?

Much of this thread and the other threads argument is that the T/A, outside of Vader, brings no utility to the game as is and therefore never gets picked.

I don't want super T/A's, I want a reason to use one beyond "I fancy a T/A today". Currently, that doesn't exist, every other imperial ship can do the same job either/ and or cheaper and better than the T/A.

I'm not talking in tournaments either. Continually beating a T/A list is as boring as losing with it, it offers little to no "fun" in the game.

I guess that the statement above about fun, sums up my problem with it.

@endgame. What you are saying is that you are willing to spend at least 50 points (no Jonus) to fire 2 missiles and then have a pair of ships that are pretty much dead weight after that?

A 2 firepower ship is NOT dead weight if it has 2 actions (see my discussion on Green Squadron A-Wings), especially when it has barrel roll. If I'm going with the named Ties, I would probably use one of 2 squads.

Option 1, offensive tilt:

Vader, Homing Missile, Expose

Maarek, Concussion Missile, Push the Limits, Engine Upgrade

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

Option 2, defensive tilt:

Vader, Homing Missile

Maarek, Concussion Missile, Stealth Device

Night Beast

Academy Pilot

Against rebels lists not using a Falcon, the two missiles will more than likely get me a 1 ship advantage on my opponent. The high pilot skills of Vader and Maarek will let me use barrel roll to stay out of arcs as much as possible, and once I'm on the tail of something like an x-wing, I'm quite confident of victory. Against a Falcon, the best I can hope for is 6 or 7 damage with the missiles, and hope the 2 tie fighters roll well on their attacks. If I'm truly lucky against Lando or Han, Maarek will hit a crit on his concussion missile and I can knock out the pilot ability early.

Against an imperial tie swarm, I'm using both missiles to kill Howlrunner as quickly as possible. If I'm really lucky, Vader's homing missile will do it, but the two missiles should do it more often then not. Then its 6 against 4 and I've got the edge in pilot skill.

I do not disagree with named T/A's, I am a big Vader user.

The Storm and Tempest though are IMO, dead weight when I can find other ships that do the job better. Pretty much no one picks those versions, unlike X-Wings, Tie Fighters, Interceptors, Bombers. (you get the idea)

Pretty much no one picks those versions, unlike X-Wings, Tie Fighters, Interceptors, Bombers. (you get the idea)

It's hard to disagree with that - I've never picked them. I might try them out though.

I do not disagree with named T/A's, I am a big Vader user.

The Storm and Tempest though are IMO, dead weight when I can find other ships that do the job better. Pretty much no one picks those versions, unlike X-Wings, Tie Fighters, Interceptors, Bombers. (you get the idea)

I have yet to lose with the Jonus + tempests squad:

Jonus, PtL, Homing

Scimitar, Proton Torp

Tempest, Cluster

Tempest, Cluster

This list is brutal against Falcons and 5 ships or less. I haven't tried it against a 7 ship Howlrunner squad yet, but I crushed a Han Shoots first list by killing Han on turn 2 by hitting it with every missile in the list.

TBH ordnance is always brutal against YT-1300 based lists.

Recently I've been thinking up campaign scenarios along with it "ship canon" and reinforcements

As most already know the vast majority of the Empire's starfighters require a Carrier-Transport. One of these exceptions is the TIE/x1 which has hyperdrive capabilities. This had me thinking for Campaigns Scenarios that allow reinforcement. Rather than making only allowing reinforcement from the player's edge, Ships with hyperdrives can also Reinforce from all sides except their opponent's edge.

Yes, it doesn't fully address how the TIE/x1 is considered "overpriced" or "lacking in value" in combat. But it does address a Role it would have with selection of forces. Under Campaign conditions the ability to come onto the board closer towards where combat is has a number of benefits.

Figuring out a ship's role/type helps with deciding on whether it's value is properly affected. In the way described above the TIE/x1 is role/type is a Flanker. since it would have the ability to appear from different angles compared to the other standard fighter or bomber options.

Currently I've got most ship role/type under the following categories:

Dog Fighter - Formation Flier - Fighter/Bomber - Bomber

with those categories the Empire ships look like: Interceptor - TIE - TIE/x1 - Bomber

with where it is placed in the category the Empire has the cheaper costing specialized craft that can assume the roles the TIE/x1 has which is one of the reasons it's not seen under normal force selections.

for those of you running campaigns or scenarios, IF you haven't already come up with this idea, you might see more TIE/x1's selected for missions outside of Vader or Steele. Matches with Reserves / Reinforcements option also allows for Larger Point Games to be played with smaller size tables.

Sure it adds more complexity to the game. But the ability to "outflank" for a well timed ambush maybe enough for the TIE/x1's debatable inflated cost.

I find if a ship cannot find a role and excel in that role then it's not worth the points spent. especially when compared to the other options available.

For the Rebels ship selection is much easier since ALL options are Fighter/Bombers the only difference is whether they are "Heavy" (B-Wing, Y-Wing) or "Light" (X-Wing, A-wing).

The Empire's ships are all "Specialized" with the exception of the TIE/x1 being a Fighter/Bomber or Multi-role craft.

Why have a little bit of 2 worlds in 1, When you can have the Best of 1 world in 2?

----

I said "debatable inflated cost" since it is back and forth 51/49 on what the value of the TIE/x1 is depending on who you talk to and how they use it.

I play x wing because the ships are cool. screw maths.

@game124

You do realize that only Vader gets 2 actions? Just double checking. He can have 3 actions if you really want but I don't recommend it because you are still overpaying 2 for him. Vader is only good because PTL is so good and should probably cost 4+ and he has the non-stress version which is probably worth 6+ pts by itself.

Sure, marrek can take it too but he's even more overpointed than the other advanced.

And 4pts is huge. 4 points is PTL on your best pilot and initiative. 4pts is the difference between a full win and a modified win. 4 pts is the difference between soontir fel and your average interceptor with PTL, an academy tie or backstabber... 4 pts is a big deal.

@game124

You do realize that only Vader gets 2 actions? Just double checking. He can have 3 actions if you really want but I don't recommend it because you are still overpaying 2 for him. Vader is only good because PTL is so good and should probably cost 4+ and he has the non-stress version which is probably worth 6+ pts by itself.

Sure, marrek can take it too but he's even more overpointed than the other advanced.

And 4pts is huge. 4 points is PTL on your best pilot and initiative. 4pts is the difference between a full win and a modified win. 4 pts is the difference between soontir fel and your average interceptor with PTL, an academy tie or backstabber... 4 pts is a big deal.

Yes, I am aware that Vader "only" gets 2 actions, and 2 actions is solid - its why Maarek with PtL isn't bad, especially if you have some luck with some natural crits and you throw an engine upgrade on Maarek.

4pts is nothing in comparison to the power of the dice in this game. In my practice games for Gen Con 2013, I had a stealth device on Wedge - in one game I threw 3 evades 4 attacks in a row. That stealth device was worth much more than 4 points. At Gen Con, I played against a Dual falcon list and I threw all blanks on Wedge and on one of my A-Wings all game. The Stealth device was worth nothing that game.

The difference being you control what you spend your points on. You control how you modify dice with your points. You enen control the # of dice, again, with points. So if dice are the most powerful force in the game you should be valuing those 4 points much higher (Stealth device- 3, elusiveness x2 -4, PTL focus an evade- 3pts).

The difference being you control what you spend your points on. You control how you modify dice with your points. You enen control the # of dice, again, with points. So if dice are the most powerful force in the game you should be valuing those 4 points much higher (Stealth device- 3, elusiveness x2 -4, PTL focus an evade- 3pts).

OK, pretend that you took a stealth device in the list and then lost it on the first roll? Same effect. The tie advanced is not so bad that it makes your games un-winnable or even a serious uphill challenge.

Oh, and I never want initiative when running tie advanceds. I want to move second to allow me to know exactly where enemy fire arcs are so I can barrel roll and boost out of them. If someone wants to play less points than me (which, per you, is HUGE for effect) to get initiative I'll let them do it.

Yep... that's why it's a game I play over and over and not one single round. You control what you spend your points on, if you lose it first roll one game, next game you are in control of keeping it or changing it out. 2 advanced don't have that option. Start tallying all the times that stealth saves your bacon. I have merely responded to your claim that dice matter more than points with an argument of: the number of points you are giving up allows you to heavily modify those dice if you choose well.

You don't get to let someone have initiative. They either have it or they don't. If it's not part of your list build then it is a poor choice to not play at full points. If you have high PS, it is the difference between taking return fire or not. Again, the person building the list has the choice.

2 Advanced have the same choice but to bid for initiative you are effectively playing at 95pts. You are working from a different tactic that doesn't require that. You're still playing at 96pts though. I'd like to see your list with 2 advanced with engine upgrades and some battle reports too.

Have played 2 games with:

Option 1, offensive tilt:

Vader, Homing Missile, Expose

Maarek, Concussion Missile, Push the Limits, Engine Upgrade

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

It has worked exactly like I thought it would. The double missiles kill whatever I want on the 2nd turn, and then I out dog fight my opponent from that point forward.

Game 1 was against (I believe)

Wedge, Ptl, R2

Red Squadron

Red Squadron

Prototype w/ Cluster

Turn 2 Vader and Maarek dropped both missiles on Wedge, killing him. Wedge rolled 2 hits on Maarek on his attack, but I rolled 2 evades, so I took no damage. The 2 academy's almost shot down the Prototype (3 damage total), but I lost one Academy in the exchange. Turn 3, the remaining academy blocked one of the Reds, and asteroid layout prevented a K Turn on the A-Wing, so it had to take a hard turn to avoid and was out of the fight for a turn. Vader and Maarek came up behind the X-Wings, vader exposed and target locked, and maarek PtL'd for focus and target lock. The combined fire dealt 4 damage to the targeted X-Wing, The academy pilot ate 4 hits from the other Red squadron and bit the dust. The next turn, the A-Wing returned to the fight in a predictable route and ended up going head to head with Maarek. The X-Wings K Turned and vader took a slow approach and barrel rolled away from the fresh X-Wing to get into Range 3 of it, while still staying in range 2 of the damage X-Wing. Maarek kills the A-Wing before it can fire, and Vader kills the damaged red squadron before it can fire. The last red squadron misses vader. Vader and Maarek end up tag teaming the last red squadron from both sides and kill it with a single damage done to vader in the process.

Game 2 was against:

Kyle, moldy crow, recon specialist, blaster turret

Dutch, R2D2, Ion Cannon, Shield Upgrade

Garvin, R2F2, Stealth Device

This game was over very, very fast. The initial approach on the rebels was slow with Kyle building focus, which I expected, so I went 5 forward twice. Both Missiles took Garvin out before he could shoot, and the Academies dealt 2 damage to Dutch. No damage was dealt back. I blocked dutch the next turn with an academy on his green maneuver to regen a shield, and lined up range 1 shots with vader, Maarek, and the other academy. Vader exposed and target locked, maarek ptl'd for boost and target lock to get into range 1, and the other academy choose focus. Vader dealt 4 damage, and maarek dealt 2, and pulled a blinded pilot crit so Dutch couldn't shoot back. The academy finished off dutch. We called the game at that point, as I had taken no damage and all that was left was Kyle.

Have played 2 games with:

Option 1, offensive tilt:

Vader, Homing Missile, Expose

Maarek, Concussion Missile, Push the Limits, Engine Upgrade

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

It has worked exactly like I thought it would. The double missiles kill whatever I want on the 2nd turn, and then I out dog fight my opponent from that point forward.

Game 1 was against (I believe)

Wedge, Ptl, R2

Red Squadron

Red Squadron

Prototype w/ Cluster

Turn 2 Vader and Maarek dropped both missiles on Wedge, killing him. Wedge rolled 2 hits on Maarek on his attack, but I rolled 2 evades, so I took no damage. The 2 academy's almost shot down the Prototype (3 damage total), but I lost one Academy in the exchange. Turn 3, the remaining academy blocked one of the Reds, and asteroid layout prevented a K Turn on the A-Wing, so it had to take a hard turn to avoid and was out of the fight for a turn. Vader and Maarek came up behind the X-Wings, vader exposed and target locked, and maarek PtL'd for focus and target lock. The combined fire dealt 4 damage to the targeted X-Wing, The academy pilot ate 4 hits from the other Red squadron and bit the dust. The next turn, the A-Wing returned to the fight in a predictable route and ended up going head to head with Maarek. The X-Wings K Turned and vader took a slow approach and barrel rolled away from the fresh X-Wing to get into Range 3 of it, while still staying in range 2 of the damage X-Wing. Maarek kills the A-Wing before it can fire, and Vader kills the damaged red squadron before it can fire. The last red squadron misses vader. Vader and Maarek end up tag teaming the last red squadron from both sides and kill it with a single damage done to vader in the process.

Game 2 was against:

Kyle, moldy crow, recon specialist, blaster turret

Dutch, R2D2, Ion Cannon, Shield Upgrade

Garvin, R2F2, Stealth Device

This game was over very, very fast. The initial approach on the rebels was slow with Kyle building focus, which I expected, so I went 5 forward twice. Both Missiles took Garvin out before he could shoot, and the Academies dealt 2 damage to Dutch. No damage was dealt back. I blocked dutch the next turn with an academy on his green maneuver to regen a shield, and lined up range 1 shots with vader, Maarek, and the other academy. Vader exposed and target locked, maarek ptl'd for boost and target lock to get into range 1, and the other academy choose focus. Vader dealt 4 damage, and maarek dealt 2, and pulled a blinded pilot crit so Dutch couldn't shoot back. The academy finished off dutch. We called the game at that point, as I had taken no damage and all that was left was Kyle.

I played against a list like yours once (same except Maarek didn't have an engine upgrade and I think a Tie was upgraded to Dark Curse) with 2 PTL A-Wings and 2 B-wings. You're right in that the opening salvo is brutal but it runs into the same problem I've run into playing A-wings so much. 2 attack is normally fine against most rebel ships. Against anything agility 3, especially anything that can evade, you'll start pulling out your hair out some games. I won that game barely because I went offense first (TL and Focus) and then played conservatively (Focus/Evade) with the A-Wings and took advantage of the turns he went all out offense on the B-Wings, which admittedly crumpled pretty quickly.

I like your list, just sharing some thoughts.

Last night a game of mine came down to a Prototype vs. Tempest, both without shields. Given this is 17 points vs. 21 points, but the Tempest ended up getting the upper hand on the Proto. Though I believe had it been a GSP it would have been a different story.

The big difference between the x1 and the bomber is the dial - and that extra evade die... and that evade action. If points were equal between bomber and advanced, no one would take the Bomber, as the x1 is better in (almost) every way. I believe someone did the reverse math and decided that the 3rd agility die costs 3 points. 6 hull vs. 3 hull + 2 shields means that the bomber has 1 more point in "health," but missing 3 from the dice. This brings it's cost up to 18 vs. 21 advanced.

So, for 3 points, you're getting a better dial, and the evade action. I would be willing to say that the dial is worth a point. I use that 2 turn all the time. Though having a 1 straight is a nice addition to the bomber. So now it comes down to evade action and 2 points. And the MF title costs 1 point, so then the walk from the bomber to the advance shows that it's 1 point too much. Assuming the dial is worth a point.

People are willing to sacrifice 1-2 points for init all the time. So to sacrifice 1 point to have a ship that *should* live longer, especially if it's in a list that is likely going for modified wins anyways... I'd say that's fine.

Have played 2 games with:

Option 1, offensive tilt:

Vader, Homing Missile, Expose

Maarek, Concussion Missile, Push the Limits, Engine Upgrade

Academy Pilot

Academy Pilot

It has worked exactly like I thought it would. The double missiles kill whatever I want on the 2nd turn, and then I out dog fight my opponent from that point forward.

Game 1 was against (I believe)

Wedge, Ptl, R2

Red Squadron

Red Squadron

Prototype w/ Cluster

-snip-

Nice BatRep, thanks.

But you are kinda repeating yourself, so are we (the supporter of "Adv is too expensive"): Vader is fine, but I am yet to see a list with regular (Tempest) Adv that plays good vs the normal stuff out there. I played the normal Adv several times now (for testing purpose) and while I won a few of these games (mostly thanks to not so experienced opponenets) I still lost most of them. The standard TIE Adv is not well balanced compared to the other ships currently out there, it's simply too weak.

Also, as a side node, your opponents did a poor job in eating all your missiles on the first approach. One is able to undercut the distance so that the missile can't shoot, I just did in my last game where I faced 4 A-Wings all with missiles. Only one got its missile off in the 3rd round, by splitting his force on deployment and sending one in from the flank. All other A Wings died with their missiles in the tubes, as I simply stayed too close to him and knocked them out quickly with superb firepower (I played Rebels too). My list was

Wedge with Swarm tactics

Biggs

Garven

Prototype (mostly for action denial)

99 points (to have initiative, I want initiative!)

I'd have no worries to take that list against TIE Adv every day!

I would like the Adv to be better than it is currently, since I mostly play Empire, and I don't want to be forced to play Vader to have a useful ship.

Also, as a side node, your opponents did a poor job in eating all your missiles on the first approach. One is able to undercut the distance so that the missile can't shoot, I just did in my last game where I faced 4 A-Wings all with missiles. Only one got its missile off in the 3rd round, by splitting his force on deployment and sending one in from the flank. All other A Wings died with their missiles in the tubes, as I simply stayed too close to him and knocked them out quickly with superb firepower (I played Rebels too). My list was

My favorite ships are Ptl Green Squadrons w/ Missiles and I have lots of practice against people trying to get "under" the missile range. If you don't screen your missile ships, and try to run them head on against your opponent you can end up in a bad situation. I haven't had someone successfully prevent me from Alpha Striking my chosen target in quite some time. Worse case, I can split the A-wings / Tie Advanceds and guarantee you can't stop me from getting at least 1 missile off at my target. (I did this a lot at this past Gen Con) If that target it an X-Wing that is likely going to be at least 2 damage, if not 4 damage. If you land 4 damage with a homing missile on an X-Wing, for example, you're probably better off not wasting the second missile anyway and just killing it with primary weapon attacks.

Use Tempest and Storm pilots (w/o Jonus) and report.

Use Tempest and Storm pilots (w/o Jonus) and report.

No thanks. They are viable with Jonus. General minis gaming theory I've developed over the years is that if its viable in at least one list, it doesn't really NEED to be viable elsewhere. Tempest and Storms can work w/ Jonus and Vader is solid pretty much all the time. Maarek doesn't really rock my world, but I am enjoying the extra PS over a Green squadron, even if it doesn't have all the extra green maneuvers. Given the performance of Vader and the generics w/ Jonus, buying a Tie Advanced mini isn't a waste, which is more than I can say for a number of my 40k purchases over the years.

Dude if you compare to 40k stuff you will always be happy with anything from X-Wing (so far) :-D

That's a way to get around in the miniature game world, I have to give you that.