well it doesn't have to be an extra attack die, but something clearly needs to be done

i'm kind of looking at it as with the raised points, is it still worth it to take vader? or for approximately the same price one could choose a saber squadron pilot and an academy tie which puts more bodies on the field and more attack dice overall and have better maneuverability

so i don't think adding to its firepower is completely out of the question, but there can be better options, i agree

and something needs to be done in the near future to fix it

It's really a design space situation.. a 3/3/3/2 fighter is pushing very heavily into the top of the viable range for the game. Which leaves no room for super fighters like the Defender and the Avenger.

Also background-wise the X-Wing and Advanced are meant to be comparable, 3 Attack would just make the Advanced better.

yes and no, yes it might be a bit better than an x-wing, but the empire also has interceptors and tie fighters fighting for those slots and if vader ended up costing round the 32-33 point mark, which would be better overall? a small sort of maneuverable fighter with a stat bar of 3/3/3/2 and a 9 pilot skill or a basic bounty hunter with a stat bar of 3/2/6/4 with a rear firing arc and a large base (which can be a good or a bad thing depending on how you fly it)

it's a toss up, but i'm sure both would find their place

I'm not saying OP or better choice than the X-Wing. I'm saying a better fighter stat for stat ignoring points. An equal number of base Advanced and X-Wings should be balanced, they are in the background. The Advanced is not a super fighter.

i find you're just comparing apples to orange then

why do they have to be balanced? the core set comes with 2 ties and an x-wing; which is supposed to be "balanced"

i find you're just comparing apples to orange then

why do they have to be balanced? the core set comes with 2 ties and an x-wing; which is supposed to be "balanced"

Because background-wise they were balanced. The Tie was always worse than the X-Wing, no shields, easy to shoot down, low firepower. The Advanced was meant to be directly comparable to an X-Wing, so it makes sense they are both the same points and though they may have differences be well balanced relative to each other. The Advanced was not a superfighter, as soon as you are talking about 3 Attack 3 Defense you are into Tie Defender territory.

Apples to... Lemons?

and

Did you really just ask why they have to be balanced?

And most people flying Xwing vs. 2 ties to be balanced.

i don't think comparing opposing faction ships to one another is the way to go either; even if it has to do with fluff (to a certain extent of course to avoid massively super powered ships that break the game)

you have to look at it from a single faction stand point; such as, why would i choose this ship over other options that could be just as strong if not stronger?

Apples to... Lemons?

and

Did you really just ask why they have to be balanced?

And most people flying Xwing vs. 2 ties to be balanced.

no i said why does the advanced have to be balanced with an x wing

that like saying an a-wing has to be balanced with the interceptor and we all clearly know the interceptor is far superior

or perhaps we should make a new thread saying that the interceptor needs to be nerfed down to the a-wing's level and another thread that says the a-wings need to be pumped up to the interceptors level?

do you see my point now?

Well it costs the same amount as an X-Wing, so it should be comparable to an X-Wing, otherwise it just will not be used.. But this also matches the background.

As I said I'm all for giving it a buff to make it useful. But I don't want to see it as a 3/3/3/2 ship as that does not fit the background and removes ability to add ships into that design space at a later date.

If it's only balanced with the upgrade that becomes the only way it will be flown. The Advanced would become a 3/3/3/2 superfighter. and the 2/3/3/2 version would never be seen.

Boy, do I hate Math Wing.

I hear you on that one. A lot of good points made by both sides of the argument. My opinion is thus : If you feel the advanced sucks and is the bane if any imperial squad, Vader included, then simply don't use it/him. If however, you do like the challenge, like me, and fly the advanced then go for it. I feel this argument has made its point. We all know the math behind it. I understand why some people don't like it and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So if people are saying the odds of successfully dogfighting a rebel ship such as an x-wing with the advanced are low, I say "Never tell me the odds!"

that's the real problem though

everyone wants to be able to actually use the advanced competitively but due to its handicap; imperial players are forced to toss them into the "no, pile"

where as rebel players have the option of choosing from every single ship in their arsenal to the table. So by just saying "if you don't like him, don't use him" you completely miss the point about why everyone is upset in the first place

and all FFG needs to do to correct the tie advanced would be to release a title card for tie advanced for a cost of 1-3 points (i don't know the exact right number but it's around here) that would give it 1 more to its attack die

and it's really the only option that can work because you can't make it's movement dial any better because it's already produced

this option would make it a ship to be reckoned with and one that imperial players will consider as a highly valuable option to use

I didn't miss the point of why people are upset over the advanced. I get it. I simply made a statement that maybe I shouldn't have. We all would like to use it competitively and I doubt FFG will do anything to it to please everybody. And I don't think much can be done without upsetting the balance of the game.

and the 2/3/3/2 version would never be seen.

and the census is that the tie advanced has been advanced and now useful

but seriously, the 1 attack die is really just one of the many options available to make it stronger, i'm happy with anything that will make it worth taking into a tournament and not be at a disadvantage because of it

i just wanted to reinforce my choice as to why. it has nothing to do with putting down any other options that could be just as effective

Apples to... Lemons?

and

Did you really just ask why they have to be balanced?

And most people flying Xwing vs. 2 ties to be balanced.

no i said why does the advanced have to be balanced with an x wing

that like saying an a-wing has to be balanced with the interceptor and we all clearly know the interceptor is far superior

or perhaps we should make a new thread saying that the interceptor needs to be nerfed down to the a-wing's level and another thread that says the a-wings need to be pumped up to the interceptors level?

do you see my point now?

Apples to... Lemons?

and

Did you really just ask why they have to be balanced?

And most people flying Xwing vs. 2 ties to be balanced.

no i said why does the advanced have to be balanced with an x wing

that like saying an a-wing has to be balanced with the interceptor and we all clearly know the interceptor is far superior

or perhaps we should make a new thread saying that the interceptor needs to be nerfed down to the a-wing's level and another thread that says the a-wings need to be pumped up to the interceptors level?

do you see my point now?

In that instance you would be comparing 2 ships with 2 different roles at 2 different point costs from 2 different factions n Regardless of those differences they should also be balanced to each other at different point costs. Game balance is held together by the fact that ships are balanced by point, role, and faction as well as fitting in universe. Comparing the advanced and Xwing (the ship the game is named after) is as close a comparison you can make at this point.

wait i thought the census was that the advanced was over costed by an approximate of 2 points?

also, you just answered your own question

they are 2 different ships with 2 different roles, the advanced shines more as an evasive ship, the x wing shines more as an aggressive ship

but aggression always wins out over evasive in this game. and for good cause, it keeps the games from running too long all the time

Apples to... Lemons?

and

Did you really just ask why they have to be balanced?

And most people flying Xwing vs. 2 ties to be balanced.

no i said why does the advanced have to be balanced with an x wing

that like saying an a-wing has to be balanced with the interceptor and we all clearly know the interceptor is far superior

or perhaps we should make a new thread saying that the interceptor needs to be nerfed down to the a-wing's level and another thread that says the a-wings need to be pumped up to the interceptors level?

do you see my point now?

In that instance you would be comparing 2 ships with 2 different roles at 2 different point costs from 2 different factions n Regardless of those differences they should also be balanced to each other at different point costs. Game balance is held together by the fact that ships are balanced by point, role, and faction as well as fitting in universe. Comparing the advanced and Xwing (the ship the game is named after) is as close a comparison you can make at this point.

wait i thought the census was that the advanced was over costed by an approximate of 2 points?

also, you just answered your own question

they are 2 different ships with 2 different roles, the advanced shines more as an evasive ship, the x wing shines more as an aggressive ship

but aggression always wins out over evasive in this game. and for good cause, it keeps the games from running too long all the time

I believe he is going back to the original source material for what an Advanced should be.

ok, but if we just leave the advanced the way it is, it will continue to go unused in the competitive scene and threads like these will keep going

i'm fine with leaving the points near the x-wing, but something needs to be done to make it stronger

maybe i'm just terrible at getting my points across? *shrugs*

ok, but if we just leave the advanced the way it is, it will continue to go unused in the competitive scene and threads like these will keep going

i'm fine with leaving the points near the x-wing, but something needs to be done to make it stronger

maybe i'm just terrible at getting my points across? *shrugs*

I totally agree, they need a boost, but I don't think the boost should push them into super-fighter territory. A free FCS and a EPT on the Tempest would keep them at the same points but would make them much more useful. TBH giving them a 1 or 0 point title that gives them the boost is about the only way to go. As you can't change the dial, and lowering their points or wacking on an expensive upgrade moves them away from their place in the Star Wars universe.

I was going a little broader with roles: Xwing was the rebel "baseline" and the advanced was meant to mirror it in universe. In game they are both 21pt small base ships with missile/torp, 2 shield, 3 hull, and standard action bar of each faction, and similar dial with the similar pilot progressions.

One last post, because like the other thread, I find I don't have the patience for this argument.

1. The math of probability is useful in this game. But, it is not the end all be all of this game. That is why I hate it when arguments seem to boil down to the math of hits vs evades for the Advanced vs the X-wing. An equal X-wing vs an Advanced is going to come down to maneuvers and Barrel Roll gives the Advanced the advantage, imo. And there are so many more factors than the math in the top squads. Also, it is really difficult to say anything is overcosted or not, since it is rather obvious that the baseline formula is tweaked by playtesting. Remember, the Academy Pilot should theoretically be 11 pts. Obviously, they didn't want a 9 TIE swarm. There is also the small issue of the HWK, which I can only assume playtesting says cheap crew availability is dangerous.

2. This mythical "balance" that people seem to be clamoring for, will never appear. Especially as we get more and more ships and pilots. Just look back at some of the over dramatizations of the top 8 squads of Worlds. People out right declaring some ships just weren't good. Which is not the right way to look at the data, with such a small sample of a large tournament. Not every ship, or pilot, will have equal representation. Especially as the game grows. I find the argument that tier 2 ships (which will happen, no matter the playtesting involved) must be tier 1 is looking game design with blinders or as a fanboy.

3. And really, in the end, another reason to hate Math Wing, not every ship is equal in different peoples hands. I can't pilot a swarm to save my life, but I used to use the Firespray and HLC with great precision. Different ships will work differently with different players. And again, the role the Advanced plays in a squad is not easily supported by Imperials. It might see new life in higher point games, but we will see.

In the end, the worst I will say about the Advanced, is that it was balanced with Vader in mind.

Regarding your point 2.

Balance will never occur if mistakes/problems/unbalanced units are not allowed to change or evolve. Balance will never occur if people are content with knowing there is an unbalance.

There will never be perfect balance, but the amount of imbalance can be reduced (Unless you are GW where you just want to move it around to make money).

1. The math of probability is useful in this game. But, it is not the end all be all of this game.

I totally agree. Math is only one data point among many, albeit a very important, and arguably the most important point.

Actually, there is no reason to believe that the Academy should be 11 just because the cost progression is -1 relative to the other ships. I think that it makes more sense to conclude that because the TIE Fighter starts off with such a low cost, adding the usual 8 points to get +7PS would have been prohibitively expensive as a proportion of the total ship cost. I actually think they STARTED at 12 points and then balanced the higher PS ships from there.

Unless you have a specific citation of how the TIE Advanced could be useful useful EVER, in ANY player's hands, instead of using some other ship in the Imperial Fleet, nothing meaningful has really been said related to the discussion at hand. We know that Vader in particular could be useful (although he hasn't seen much tournament use since wave 2), but the other TIE Advanced don't seem to have absolutely anything going for them.

TIE Advanced and X-wing cost the same number of points so they should be close to the same power level in the game. (I don't think exactly the same is possible, but close should be possible)

Let's compare what they have:

X-wings 3/2/3/2

TIE Advanced 2/3/3/2

basically the Advanced has one less attack dice, but one more defense dice. Granted that does give an advantage to the X-wing but it is slight.

Manuver Dials are pretty comprable I think you could argue either way.

Action Bars

X-wing: TL, F

TIE Advanced BR, Ev, TL, F

you have to admit that the TIE Advanced has a huge advantage with two additional actions.

In a straight up duel between an X-wing and a TIE Advanced the Evade really gives it the edge. Barrel Roll is also great great great if you have hight PS.

So far they seem pretty comparable to me.

Personally I do think they are pretty much equal. However, for the sake of argument I am willing to admit their might be a slight advantage on the part of the TIE Advanced.

But I have yet to see any arguments I found convincing that the difference is enough to call the ship broken.

Think of what it would cost the game to make the TIE Advanced 3/3/3/2. It would instantly become the best, hands down, fighter in the game. You would see tons of TIE Advanced, there would be no point to take the TIE Interceptor, and I don't think we would see as many TIEs either. The TIE Advanced would kick the X-wings butt. Imagine it going up against a B-wing. It would tear them appart. 3 attack vs 3 agility to 3 attack vs 1 agility.

If the range of attack dice was say from 1-6 a 1 point attack bump might noe be that big a deal, but the current spread for primary weapons is 1-3 jumping from 2 to three takes it from medium low to the top of the scale.

+1 attack dice is a really big deal in this game. It is a 6 point difference between the TIE and the TIE Interceptor.

The TIE Advanced isn't use much, but isn't that right for the world. It showed up only once in the movies and according the EU stuff it was replaced by the TIE Interceptor. So isn't it right that we don't use it that much.

As for seriouse need to balance the game, I believe the important balance issues must be between Imperial and Rebel. If every Imperial list turn out to be 2 point over cost that would be a serious problem. But I just don't see it that big of a deal for a single ship. 2 points doesn't mean you can't win, and if what you are going for is super efficency then there are plenty other ship choice to take.

"Fixing" the TIE Advanced would just mean that the super efficent list would just avoid some other ship.

Frankly, one of my favorite things about this game is how FFG has protected the primacy of the TIE Fighter as the dominant fighter of the Empire. If an improvement in the TIE Advanced meant that more people took it and people took fewer TIEs then I would not like it.

[ bolded for emphasis]

You don't need to simplify the math, I already gave it before you posted.

The correct number is 0.4944, not 0.2167. Re-read my post below.

Edit: summary: evade puts you on an equal footing in a 1v1 scenario, but when there are multiple ships, the TIE Advanced will get murdered by focus fire, likely worse than if it simply focused.

Ask and Ye Shall Receive!

3 attack dice + focus vs 3 defense dice + focus = 0.6378 average damage

If you assume that the TIE Advanced shoots first, but never spends its focus for attack, then here's the damage calculation...

2 attack dice (no focus) vs 2 defense dice (no focus) = 0.5078 average damage

Or, if the X-wing still has a focus, which is a 1 - (6/8)^3 = 57.81% chance:

2 attack dice (no focus) vs 2 defense dice with focus = 0.2578 average damage

So the average damage that the TIE Advanced does is 0.5078*(6/8)^3 + 0.2578*(1 - (6/8)^3) = 0.3633 average damage

Conclusion: always use focus if you can. If you allow the TIE Advanced to spend its focus on offense, then things get messier, and I don't feel like calculating all the permutations right now. But at that point you're back to comparing apples to apples, so you can just use the above numbers for a fair comparison.

Lanchester's Laws only tell you relative combat strength after you figure out how much damage the two sides will do to each other. It says nothing about tactics as to how to optimize your damage, and reduce damage taken.

Target Lock has the exact same effect that focus does on hit probabilities, so the only reason you should Target Lock is if you are trying to action stack (TL + focus), or don't have a shot and want to save it for another round (deferred action stacking). So the example you cited is exactly the same as the previously quoted numbers with focus on attack.

Frankly, one of my favorite things about this game is how FFG has protected the primacy of the TIE Fighter as the dominant fighter of the Empire. If an improvement in the TIE Advanced meant that more people took it and people took fewer TIEs then I would not like it.

For better or for worse, the mere existence of Howlrunner has rendered TIE Advanced and TIE Interceptor swarms completely obselete compared to TIE Fighter swarms. So even if you reduced the Advanced cost by 2 (or gave it a built-in Fire Control Systems), I seriously doubt that you would see many in play at the serious tournament level. It would probably help casual gameplay be more balanced though, which, for me, is the main thing, since I currently only play house games.

Also, here's another way to check your own math that you can do without needing any fancy scripts: the chance of an X-wing with focus getting 2 hits on a TIE Advanced (with the TIE Advanced having evade but focus) is:

(6/8)^3 * (5/8)^3 = 0.103

That one event right there yields 2 damage, putting you at 0.206 average damage already, without considering the other 90% of the cases, of which many will obviously result in 1 damage to the TIE Advanced. So it should be fairly obvious even without scripts that the damage will be higher than 0.2-something.