[...] The Advanced, while possessing higher speed and agility, is not worth the same amount of points for what is presented. Sure, barrel roll and evade are great actions, but if the starting dial itself is crummy (why can't it use sharp turn 1? That's ridiculous.) than it's going to suffer because the original movements are underwhelming. [...]

My point was that the reflecting of the Evade action combined with Barrel Roll should have a combined projected cost higher that 1-2pts. It may still leave the ship where it stand as far as consideration of being over-priced; but how much over-priced should be lessened.

Concerning Dials yes the Advance has a weird one. It's in between a TIE Bomber's and a TIE/Ln's or equal to an X-Wing with the Forward bumped up a speed. The lack of a 1Turn is a bit ridiculous but I think the more ridiculous thing about the TIEx1's Dial is the lack of 1Forward. It's lack of maneuverability and ability to use missiles has me classing the TIEx1 as a "Fighter-Bomber" which makes sense just comparing the dials of the TIE/Ln, TIEx1, and Bomber. But when thought of that why does it not have the 16-Maneuver options the TIE/Ln has..

The ship leaves much to be desired, but putting a Square Peg into a Circle Hole is a pain sometimes when you're not entirely sure why it doesn't work.

I dunno. I mean I'm a Rebel player anyway, so it doesn't really hurt me too much, but I'm still underwhelmed with the way it was built.

[...] The Advanced, while possessing higher speed and agility, is not worth the same amount of points for what is presented. Sure, barrel roll and evade are great actions, but if the starting dial itself is crummy (why can't it use sharp turn 1? That's ridiculous.) than it's going to suffer because the original movements are underwhelming. [...]

My point was that the reflecting of the Evade action combined with Barrel Roll should have a combined projected cost higher that 1-2pts. It may still leave the ship where it stand as far as consideration of being over-priced; but how much over-priced should be lessened.

Concerning Dials yes the Advance has a weird one. It's in between a TIE Bomber's and a TIE/Ln's or equal to an X-Wing with the Forward bumped up a speed. The lack of a 1Turn is a bit ridiculous but I think the more ridiculous thing about the TIEx1's Dial is the lack of 1Forward. It's lack of maneuverability and ability to use missiles has me classing the TIEx1 as a "Fighter-Bomber" which makes sense just comparing the dials of the TIE/Ln, TIEx1, and Bomber. But when thought of that why does it not have the 16-Maneuver options the TIE/Ln has..

The ship leaves much to be desired, but putting a Square Peg into a Circle Hole is a pain sometimes when you're not entirely sure why it doesn't work.

It really comes down to a few things, it's probably too expensive for what you get. estimates put it at around 2pts.

Now this could be fixed in a lot of ways.

Firstly you could lower it's points by 2 pts... it would allow you to run 5 cheap ones in 100pts, or would give you a few more points to equip missiles. I still don't think it would be an amazing ship, but would probably be taken occasionally.

The other way it could be improved would be to give it a bit more bite. Part of the issue it has is it's a tanky ship. But anyone that plays MMOs will know tanks are a bit pointless if they can't hold agro. At the moment there is no reason to try and take down the Advanced, other ships do more and are easier to kill so are higher up the priority chain. I would love to see an EPT put on the Tempest so it could run something to support the rest of the force like Draw Their Fire or Squad Leader, I could see a use for a Squad Leader Tempest backing up some cheap ties or bombers, or could boost it's offense a bit to make it a more balanced fighter. I would also love to see some new pilots with support type abilities, imagine something like Biggs, Howlrunner or Jans ability on an Advanced, it would give them a place in a list.

The TIE Advanced actually was designed to match the X-Wing :

"...the [TIE Advanced] was capable of fighting a T-65 X-wing starfighter to a draw ." - Wookiepedia

Right now, the T/A isn't a match for the X-Wing. You could use it as an overpriced rocket carrier, with Jonus next to them.

The workaround to make the T/A a competent fighter for its own - even able to match the X-Wing, like the background states,

is to equip a free Fire Control System. For development and discussion see: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/94711-fixing-the-tie-advanced/

Sithborg hinted at it, but it's worth reinforcing it, the problem with the argument that it would see more use in top 8 squads if it was the right cost is null. The tournament format rewards offensive thinking because if you don't destroy a minimum of points in the time limit, you get a modified win as opposed to a full win. That doesn't mean that the ship doesn't have its place, it just means that its place isn't tournament play.

That being said, it's disappointing for what I want to use it for, but the cost is right on. Let's analyze...

X-wing to TIE Advanced:

-you flip values of attack, and defense which is slightly in favor of the X wing (basically mitigated with the addition of the Evade, but that's a separate point)

-you have missle's instead of protons, which is slightly in favor of the Advanced (less so now that APT's are out, but as of wave 1 that was more significant)

-you gain two actions which is significantly in favor of the Advanced

-you lose the astromech which is significantly in favor of the X-wing.

I could be missing something, and I'm happy to listen to your thoughts on it, but my current take on it is that it's right on cost.

The TIE Advanced does NOT gain two actions (Darth Vader does). So, here it seems to me you are comparing Darth Vader to a basic X-Wing.

What if you compare Darth Vader TIE Advanced X1 to Wedge X-Wing (both cost 29 points)?

Where they are the same:

• Both are PS9.
• Both have 2 shield.
• Both have 3 hull.
• Both can have an elite pilot talent
• Both have target lock and evade options
• I also think Missiles vs. Protons are a wash at this point

Where the X-Wing is better:

• X-Wing has 3 attack, 3 agility, TIE Advanced has 2 attack, 3 agility (a noticeable advantage to the X-Wing given what's on the dice -- and I don't think Evade mitigates it since it has to be taken as an action which prevents you from taking another action)
• X-Wing gives you access to some very powerful and relatively inexpensive astromech droids (which can be a very big advantage), TIE Advanced does not
• While both can take 15 different maneuvers, including 4 green maneuvers and 1 red maneuver, on balance I think being able to do a straight 1 is better and more common than being able to do a straight 5, making the X-Wing a bit better in this regard

Where the TIE Advanced X1 is better:

• Has Barrel Roll action as an OPTION, X-Wing does not
• Has Evade action as an OPTION, X-Wing does not

Which brings us to the special abilities:

• Wedge reduces defenders agility, Vader gives you an extra action. Hard to say what is better here, but they actually seem fairly close (i.e., you reduce Vader's agility, so he takes a free evade... both ships still get one more action). Vader's has some advantages (may help you get or avoid an attack you might not otherwise be able to). Wedge's has some advantages (even if you lose your action you still reduce your opponents agility by 1, whereas if Vader loses his actions he is totally out of luck).

The same thing happens (maybe worse) if you compare the basic 21 point Rookie Pilot to the basic 21 point Tempest Squadron Pilot. Tied on many things, but X-Wing wins the attack/agility argument, X-Wing wins the upgrade argument with the astromech, X-Wing wins the maneuver dial argument, and TIE Advanced wins the number of action OPTIONS argument (but, while it has more options, it can still only take 1 action).

On balance, I still think the X-Wing is a better ship for the points. Not to mention, I almost never see competitive squads that include the TIE Advanced (and squads that include any TIE Advanced don't do nearly as well overall), but I regularly see competitive squads include X-Wing (from Wedge to Rookies), and all sorts of X-Wings are included in many top squads. In free market terms, the X-Wing has clearly won the competition by being selected by more folks in games (and, I'll bet most people own more X-Wings than TIE Advanced, too.. for example, I happen to own 4 X-Wing and 2 TIE Advanced because I've not found much use for the TIE Advanced in anything other than a casual game... and even then, 2 is enough).

And, while +/-2 points per ship may not seem like a lot to some, that can be up to 8-10 points if you count multiple ships. There are lots of cool things you can add to at least some ships for 2 points (and 8-10 points extra in a squad is huge).

Has anyone ever played 4 X-Wing (maybe Wedge + 3 Rookie Pilot) vs. 4 TIE Advanced (say Vader + 3 Tempest Squadron Pilot)? Even with no upgrades, I'd rather play the X-Wing than the TIE Advanced. But, if someone has tried it, let us know how it went. That is the real test.

Sithborg hinted at it, but it's worth reinforcing it, the problem with the argument that it would see more use in top 8 squads if it was the right cost is null. The tournament format rewards offensive thinking because if you don't destroy a minimum of points in the time limit, you get a modified win as opposed to a full win. That doesn't mean that the ship doesn't have its place, it just means that its place isn't tournament play.

That being said, it's disappointing for what I want to use it for, but the cost is right on. Let's analyze...

X-wing to TIE Advanced:

-you flip values of attack, and defense which is slightly in favor of the X wing (basically mitigated with the addition of the Evade, but that's a separate point)

-you have missle's instead of protons, which is slightly in favor of the Advanced (less so now that APT's are out, but as of wave 1 that was more significant)

-you gain two actions which is significantly in favor of the Advanced

-you lose the astromech which is significantly in favor of the X-wing.

I could be missing something, and I'm happy to listen to your thoughts on it, but my current take on it is that it's right on cost.

The TIE Advanced does NOT gain two actions (Darth Vader does). So, here it seems to me you are comparing Darth Vader to a basic X-Wing.

What if you compare Darth Vader TIE Advanced X1 to Wedge X-Wing (both cost 29 points)?

Where they are the same:

• Both are PS9.
• Both have 2 shield.
• Both have 3 hull.
• Both can have an elite pilot talent
• Both have target lock and evade options
• I also think Missiles vs. Protons are a wash at this point

Where the X-Wing is better:

• X-Wing has 3 attack, 3 agility, TIE Advanced has 2 attack, 3 agility (a noticeable advantage to the X-Wing given what's on the dice -- and I don't think Evade mitigates it since it has to be taken as an action which prevents you from taking another action)
• X-Wing gives you access to some very powerful and relatively inexpensive astromech droids (which can be a very big advantage), TIE Advanced does not
• While both can take 15 different maneuvers, including 4 green maneuvers and 1 red maneuver, on balance I think being able to do a straight 1 is better and more common than being able to do a straight 5, making the X-Wing a bit better in this regard

Where the TIE Advanced X1 is better:

• Has Barrel Roll action as an OPTION, X-Wing does not
• Has Evade action as an OPTION, X-Wing does not

Which brings us to the special abilities:

• Wedge reduces defenders agility, Vader gives you an extra action. Hard to say what is better here, but they actually seem fairly close (i.e., you reduce Vader's agility, so he takes a free evade... both ships still get one more action). Vader's has some advantages (may help you get or avoid an attack you might not otherwise be able to). Wedge's has some advantages (even if you lose your action you still reduce your opponents agility by 1, whereas if Vader loses his actions he is totally out of luck).

The same thing happens (maybe worse) if you compare the basic 21 point Rookie Pilot to the basic 21 point Tempest Squadron Pilot. Tied on many things, but X-Wing wins the attack/agility argument, X-Wing wins the upgrade argument with the astromech, X-Wing wins the maneuver dial argument, and TIE Advanced wins the number of action OPTIONS argument (but, while it has more options, it can still only take 1 action).

On balance, I still think the X-Wing is a better ship for the points. Not to mention, I almost never see competitive folks play the TIE Advanced (and folks who play any TIE Advanced don't do nearly as well overall), but I regularly see competitive folks include X-Wing (from Wedge to Rookies), and all sorts of X-Wings are included in many top squads. In free market terms, the X-Wing has clearly won the competition by being selected by more folks in games (and, I'll bet most people own more X-Wings than TIE Advanced, too.. for example, I happen to own 4 X-Wing and 2 TIE Advanced because I've not found much use for the TIE Advanced in anything other than a casual game... and even then, 2 is enough).

And, while +/-2 points per ship may not seem like a lot to some, that can be up to 8-10 points if you count multiple ships. There are lots of cool things you can add to at least some ships for 2 points (and 8-10 points extra in a squad is huge).

Has anyone ever played 4 X-Wing (maybe Wedge + 3 Rookie Pilot) vs. 4 TIE Advanced (say Vader + 3 Tempest Squadron Pilot)? Even with no upgrades, I'd rather play the X-Wing than the TIE Advanced. But, if someone has tried it, let us know how it went. That is the real test.

Something to note: The X-Wing only has 2 agility

So now this thread has shifted to admittedly worse than all other ships?

C'mon folks, call the lemon a lemon.

2pts is an upgrade from black squad to Backstabber, one of the most used uniques on the imperial side, or from backstabber to howlrunner. 2pts is 1-3 auto damage via seismic charges. 2 pts is initiative. 2pts is 1pt away from the best Imperial upgrades in he game: stealth device and PTL. 2ptsis squad leader or swarm tactics. 2pts is a big deal.

Ina game with only 12 options losing the viability of 1 is a lot. If you're imperial that means you have 5 ships to choose from. Why do we still see tie swarms in finals, as the kryptonite to so many lists, and stagnation in list building by the imperials: the imperials simply have less real options to choose from. Having nearly 1/6 of your choice removed from your list building is a handicap and it's not only damaging to the single player, competitive players, imperial players... It is damaging to the meta as a whole and gameplay as a whole.

We're past the point of "is it bad", "is it the worst", "is it viable"- the math, reports, and play testing tell the tale. We're now onto "what COULD be done with this ship that would solve the now identified problem". There are 22 pages on another thread already devoted to that.

What "should" be done is up to FFG. They have done a great job with the game so far. They aren't releasing wave after wave of 1/5 models being valuable and worthwhile. They have a solid rules set and one of the more well balanced minis games I've ever played. I think that makes he advanced even more of a lemon because besides it, the dam game would probably be as near perfect as a table top minis game can get (new FAQ with competitive clause still questionable).

Sithborg hinted at it, but it's worth reinforcing it, the problem with the argument that it would see more use in top 8 squads if it was the right cost is null. The tournament format rewards offensive thinking because if you don't destroy a minimum of points in the time limit, you get a modified win as opposed to a full win. That doesn't mean that the ship doesn't have its place, it just means that its place isn't tournament play.

That being said, it's disappointing for what I want to use it for, but the cost is right on. Let's analyze...

X-wing to TIE Advanced:

-you flip values of attack, and defense which is slightly in favor of the X wing (basically mitigated with the addition of the Evade, but that's a separate point)

-you have missle's instead of protons, which is slightly in favor of the Advanced (less so now that APT's are out, but as of wave 1 that was more significant)

-you gain two actions which is significantly in favor of the Advanced

-you lose the astromech which is significantly in favor of the X-wing.

I could be missing something, and I'm happy to listen to your thoughts on it, but my current take on it is that it's right on cost.

The TIE Advanced does NOT gain two actions (Darth Vader does). So, here it seems to me you are comparing Darth Vader to a basic X-Wing.

What if you compare Darth Vader TIE Advanced X1 to Wedge X-Wing (both cost 29 points)?

Where they are the same:

• Both are PS9.
• Both have 2 shield.
• Both have 3 hull.
• Both can have an elite pilot talent
• Both have target lock and evade options
• I also think Missiles vs. Protons are a wash at this point

Where the X-Wing is better:

• X-Wing has 3 attack, 3 agility, TIE Advanced has 2 attack, 3 agility (a noticeable advantage to the X-Wing given what's on the dice -- and I don't think Evade mitigates it since it has to be taken as an action which prevents you from taking another action)
• X-Wing gives you access to some very powerful and relatively inexpensive astromech droids (which can be a very big advantage), TIE Advanced does not
• While both can take 15 different maneuvers, including 4 green maneuvers and 1 red maneuver, on balance I think being able to do a straight 1 is better and more common than being able to do a straight 5, making the X-Wing a bit better in this regard

Where the TIE Advanced X1 is better:

• Has Barrel Roll action as an OPTION, X-Wing does not
• Has Evade action as an OPTION, X-Wing does not

Which brings us to the special abilities:

• Wedge reduces defenders agility, Vader gives you an extra action. Hard to say what is better here, but they actually seem fairly close (i.e., you reduce Vader's agility, so he takes a free evade... both ships still get one more action). Vader's has some advantages (may help you get or avoid an attack you might not otherwise be able to). Wedge's has some advantages (even if you lose your action you still reduce your opponents agility by 1, whereas if Vader loses his actions he is totally out of luck).

The same thing happens (maybe worse) if you compare the basic 21 point Rookie Pilot to the basic 21 point Tempest Squadron Pilot. Tied on many things, but X-Wing wins the attack/agility argument, X-Wing wins the upgrade argument with the astromech, X-Wing wins the maneuver dial argument, and TIE Advanced wins the number of action OPTIONS argument (but, while it has more options, it can still only take 1 action).

On balance, I still think the X-Wing is a better ship for the points. Not to mention, I almost never see competitive folks play the TIE Advanced (and folks who play any TIE Advanced don't do nearly as well overall), but I regularly see competitive folks include X-Wing (from Wedge to Rookies), and all sorts of X-Wings are included in many top squads. In free market terms, the X-Wing has clearly won the competition by being selected by more folks in games (and, I'll bet most people own more X-Wings than TIE Advanced, too.. for example, I happen to own 4 X-Wing and 2 TIE Advanced because I've not found much use for the TIE Advanced in anything other than a casual game... and even then, 2 is enough).

And, while +/-2 points per ship may not seem like a lot to some, that can be up to 8-10 points if you count multiple ships. There are lots of cool things you can add to at least some ships for 2 points (and 8-10 points extra in a squad is huge).

Has anyone ever played 4 X-Wing (maybe Wedge + 3 Rookie Pilot) vs. 4 TIE Advanced (say Vader + 3 Tempest Squadron Pilot)? Even with no upgrades, I'd rather play the X-Wing than the TIE Advanced. But, if someone has tried it, let us know how it went. That is the real test.

Something to note: The X-Wing only has 2 agility

Oops... sorry for the typo... Thanks for pointing it out. The point is still the same, though (on balance the X-Wing's 3 Attack / 2 Agility is better than TIE Advanced's 2 Attack / 3 Agility).

Boy, do I hate Math Wing.

Boy, do I hate Math Wing.

I hear you on that one. A lot of good points made by both sides of the argument. My opinion is thus : If you feel the advanced sucks and is the bane if any imperial squad, Vader included, then simply don't use it/him. If however, you do like the challenge, like me, and fly the advanced then go for it. I feel this argument has made its point. We all know the math behind it. I understand why some people don't like it and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So if people are saying the odds of successfully dogfighting a rebel ship such as an x-wing with the advanced are low, I say "Never tell me the odds!"

[...]

So, lets start with a 21 point ship, and reduce its damage output by 30%, which is the ratio of damage that the Advanced does to the X-wing vs what the X-wing does to the Advanced (0.86/1.21 = 0.71). The "value" of this ship would then be 21*(0.71)^0.5 = 17.7. Now we need to add barrel roll and evade. I would consider that to be worth about 1-2 points , so voila, you're back at around 19 points. Again, the dial is about a wash, although the lack of a straight 1 does hurt the Advanced relative to the X-wing. I don't really like getting point values this way because there are too many variables involved with figuring out average damage numbers, but it just shows that you basically get about the same answer anyway. If I compared TIE Fighters and X-wings I would probably find that they are about costed correctly relative to each other.

[...]

I know I've cut out a lot of your post AND if I've missed the part clarifying the question I'm about to ask, please highlight it for me...

In the area I Bolded and Underlined, why is both Barrel Roll AND Evade combined to be considered 1-2 points? If it was just barrel roll I understand. But shouldn't the value of Evade negating 1 attack dice be much higher?

Yes, I understand from the math that Evading rather than Focusing would be taking away from the offensive capabilities of the Advance but It would also be taking away from the offensive capabilities of the Shooter.

I'm sure you've taken evading into consideration throughout your calculations. but how did you come to the consideration that both Barrel Roll and Evade combine for 2 points. Stealth, R2-F2, Elusiveness, and Expert Handling which all increase the defensive aspects of a ship's survivablity cost north of the 2+ range for points.

Short answer now, longer answer later, with the actual focus vs evade numbers.

Short answer: you're generally better off using focus than evade anyway, if you have an offensive shot. Evade is very situational; if you know you don't have a shot, then its better than focus defensively, unless you happen to have a bajillion (yes that's an exact number ) dice.

Upgrades ALWAYS cost a ton more than their built-in cost. You absolutely cannot go by upgrade costs to try and judge what a ship is worth. If you did, then the PS1 A-wing would cost 25+ points based on the 12 point TIE Fighter.

But you're right in the sense that that 1-2 point value isn't something that you can easily come up with a formula for. There are limits to math and statistics, and in this case the competitive game table is a really good way to see where balance truly lies.

Short answer: you're generally better off using focus than evade anyway, if you have an offensive shot. Evade is very situational; if you know you don't have a shot, then its better than focus defensively, unless you happen to have a bajillion (yes that's an exact number ) dice.

At 4+ Agility Dice, Focus actually outperforms Evade.

To forestall the inevitable argument, the difference at 4 dice is actually hard to tell. You have a better chance of dodging a SPECIFIC 2, 3 or 4 damage with a Focus, and a better chance of dodging 1 or 5 with the Evade, even though they average the same amount of damage mitigation. As I almost never need to dodge 5 damage, I give Focus the edge at 4 dice.

If you're referring to the math, that isn't accurate assuming you're flying it like the OP. If you're trying to fly it like any other fighter in the game, you'll get crushed on the other hand. Here's the math:

If an X-wing is fighting an Advanced, then at range 2, the X will average 2.25 hits per attack with a TL, or focus. The Advanced will average 2.125 evades with an Evade action.

So .125 damage will get through each turn.

On the return fire, the Advance will average 1 hit (used evade for defense, or barrel rolled out of enemy arc), while the X (since it used its offensive focus) will average .75 evades.

That will average .25 unblocked hits per turn.

The Advanced has the advantage in this scenario although it's pretty small at .125 more unblocked hits per turn. NOTE: I don't know how Major Juggler got his numbers, but he makes it even more favorable for the Advanced as we take the 1.21 average damage and apply the evade, so .21 damage per turn (could be wrong, again, I don't know Major Jugglers specific method of coming to this number. Must include Crit related damage?), vs the 2 attack vs 2 defense = .5078. That means nearly .3 hits per turn if you fly the Advanced defensively.

Things can of course change with the many variables in the game, like action loss, barrel rolls out of arc by the advanced, which player has initiative, Some attacks by the X won't require a focus, so it could be used for defense, etc.

Assuming the the advanced was flown defensively, and the X was flown as they typically are, then the battle would be pretty even by numbers.

Your analysis is a bit simplistic and incorrect. You can't simply take the difference between the average number of hits and evades. Some of the evades that get rolled will never cancel anything, so the evade dice are less than 100% "efficient".

The ACTUAL numbers for your example are harder to come by, and basically require brute-forcing all possible dice rolling combinations and then finding the probability density function for all possible damages. For the math nerds reading, you can optimize by the binomial distribution and convolution rather than brute forcing it. My scripts happen to brute force it because then you can count crits not just hits, carry over focus between attacks defensively if it doesn't get used initially, etc.

Here's the actual average numbers for your example:

X-wing at range 2 with focus attacking a TIE Advanced with evade:

0.4944 damage

TIE-Advanced at range 2 attacking an X-wing:

0.5078 damage

So the damage is basically the same. But, this is not a fair comparison, because this is only looking at one X-wing vs one TIE-Advanced. If the entire squad of TIE Advanced uses evade actions, the X-wings should respond by simply focus firing one TIE Advanced, and the majority of the evade actions will become useless. Not only that, but once the evade action is used, the average damage taken on the TIE advanced goes back up to 1.21. So if you look at the total squad damage, the X-wings should actually do MORE damage relative to the TIE Advanced if they all evade, since the Advanced damage simultaneously goes down the toilet, and evade only helps you with one or two shots out of four.

Short answer: you're generally better off using focus than evade anyway, if you have an offensive shot. Evade is very situational; if you know you don't have a shot, then its better than focus defensively, unless you happen to have a bajillion (yes that's an exact number ) dice.

At 4+ Agility Dice, Focus actually outperforms Evade.

To forestall the inevitable argument, the difference at 4 dice is actually hard to tell. You have a better chance of dodging a SPECIFIC 2, 3 or 4 damage with a Focus, and a better chance of dodging 1 or 5 with the Evade, even though they average the same amount of damage mitigation. As I almost never need to dodge 5 damage, I give Focus the edge at 4 dice.

Actually, its not quite that simple, for the same reason as my previous post. But they basically are the same, the difference is a rounding error. For a single shot:

3 dice + focus vs 4 dice with evade: 0.3476 average damage

3 dice + focus vs 4 dice with focus: 0.3504 average damage

That basically means that focus is better because you can possibly also use it on offense. Multiple shots in one round are another story. Haven't looked into that lately.

It seems to me like the only real way to decide the question is to play squads with the TIE Advanced and see how you do.

@MajorJuggler

Okay that Leichester stuff is awesome. I will get back to you

@Sithborg

This is a math-wing thread, Or at least it is heavily represented in the conversation that we are trying to have.

Posting on a forum or even reading one that you hate is not required.

Back to MajorJuggler.

I took some time and went over you math and I see how you included the high agility of the TIE Advanced in the calculations.

You based it on the fact that if both ships fired at each other and both of them focused and spent their focus on attack that the expected number of hits for the X-wing was significantly high then the expected number of hits from the TIE Advanced.

I would just say that if I was flying head to head TIE Advanced vs a X-wing I would probably not Focus, I would evade. And according to your data

3 attack dice + Focus vs 3 defense Dice has an expected number of hits of 1.2167, but if I took an evade action that would (I know I over simplified it) be about .2167.

2 attack dice (no focus) vs 2 defense dice has an expected number of hits of .5078

So according to your data if the X-wing and TIE Advanced go head to head and the X-wing Focuses (and uses it to attack) and the TIE Advanced Evades then the TIE Advanced can expect to do about twice as much damage than the X-wing.

No sometimes you don't know if you are going to be shot at when it is your turn to pick your action. Focus is a good offensive and defensive choice. But in a Duel with an X-wing it is still probably not in the TIE Advanced best interest to use his Focus on Attack, he should instead use it on defense. Granted that is not how it actually happens in the game. But if I knew I was in the firing arc of an X-wing that had a focus token and I rolled less that two focus results I would probably save the focus token for defense.

You didn't post 3 attack dice + Focus vs 3 defense Dice + focus.

Although I think for calculating damage for your Liechester's Theorem I would recommend that the X-wing gets a target lock and the TIE Advanced evades. I think in case between a head to head duel between the two ships that X-wing target locking and TIE Advanced evading are the best choice each ship can make given an accurate estimation of what is about to happen.

It is my guess that 3 AtD + TL to 3 AgD + Eva

vs

2 AtD to 2 AgD

that the X-wing will probably still come out a little ahead, but it should be a little closer.

The real reason I didn't do the calculations is that you implied you already had the programing done and could probably rune the numbers quickly.

Wow, such passion.

Is there no way we can accept these may work for you but they don't for most people?Or are we going all Warhammer community where we declare only certain build 'optimal' thus suggesting that everyone has to play the game and that the game, ergo, actually sucks.that is until someone wins with a different list and we try to make ourselves feel better by claiming the 'meta changed'?

Some people like it, most don't... Soo...?

Re: passion: why, thank you. I think it's more of an informed and well thought out comment than passion though, I'm not exactly raging at the keyboard.

I'm also not "forcing" anyone to do anything, as you imply. I'm just providing some objective, quantifiable rationale as to why the TIE Advanced hasn't seen tournament play. Reality is what it is. Don't shoot the messenger.

Also, just because I "MathWing" the game, doesn't mean I can't also "Fly Casual". I actually haven't even played in a tournament.

TBH, he has a Mathlab script to do all this... so he just runs the program to check things.. I would too if I had it set up. It wouldn't be the be all and end all, comparing to other ships, how it does in practice also matters. But when

a) The Maths

b) Comparing to other ships points

c) Use in tournaments

are all saying the same thing, it's probably correct. Should it stop you running Advanced in casual play, no, we all like a challenge some times. Will it effect tournament use and sales of the Advanced, ofc it will.

Boy, do I hate Math Wing.

I hear you on that one. A lot of good points made by both sides of the argument. My opinion is thus : If you feel the advanced sucks and is the bane if any imperial squad, Vader included, then simply don't use it/him. If however, you do like the challenge, like me, and fly the advanced then go for it. I feel this argument has made its point. We all know the math behind it. I understand why some people don't like it and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So if people are saying the odds of successfully dogfighting a rebel ship such as an x-wing with the advanced are low, I say "Never tell me the odds!"

that's the real problem though

everyone wants to be able to actually use the advanced competitively but due to its handicap; imperial players are forced to toss them into the "no, pile"

where as rebel players have the option of choosing from every single ship in their arsenal to the table. So by just saying "if you don't like him, don't use him" you completely miss the point about why everyone is upset in the first place

and all FFG needs to do to correct the tie advanced would be to release a title card for tie advanced for a cost of 1-3 points (i don't know the exact right number but it's around here) that would give it 1 more to its attack die

and it's really the only option that can work because you can't make it's movement dial any better because it's already produced

this option would make it a ship to be reckoned with and one that imperial players will consider as a highly valuable option to use

Boy, do I hate Math Wing.

I hear you on that one. A lot of good points made by both sides of the argument. My opinion is thus : If you feel the advanced sucks and is the bane if any imperial squad, Vader included, then simply don't use it/him. If however, you do like the challenge, like me, and fly the advanced then go for it. I feel this argument has made its point. We all know the math behind it. I understand why some people don't like it and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So if people are saying the odds of successfully dogfighting a rebel ship such as an x-wing with the advanced are low, I say "Never tell me the odds!"

that's the real problem though

everyone wants to be able to actually use the advanced competitively but due to its handicap; imperial players are forced to toss them into the "no, pile"

where as rebel players have the option of choosing from every single ship in their arsenal to the table. So by just saying "if you don't like him, don't use him" you completely miss the point about why everyone is upset in the first place

and all FFG needs to do to correct the tie advanced would be to release a title card for tie advanced for a cost of 1-3 points (i don't know the exact right number but it's around here) that would give it 1 more to its attack die

and it's really the only option that can work because you can't make it's movement dial any better because it's already produced

this option would make it a ship to be reckoned with and one that imperial players will consider as a highly valuable option to use

I'm against the extra attack dice option... Free FCS seems well balanced, still has lower Attack than the X-Wing more Defense, but it becomes closer to being worth it's points. The FCS allows it to make the most out of it's 2 dice without overpowering it. (and it also makes sense as it's meant to have top of the range Targeting equipment.)

Giving it an extra attack will just push it into Tie Avenger territory.

@ executor- that is not the solution we have been advocating for.

I do like th idea of titles to help fix the advanced but a boost to attack creates an entirely different ship that would further damage the meta and build selection AND future design space.

Most supported solution: add Fire Control System

Other- add system upgrade slot for free/discounted system upgrade, other titles including rear firing arc, using interceptor dial, etc (see thread)

Also: Unique named pilots.

Or: Recosting errata

No extra attack dice please (although the elite attack dice we over analyzed awhile ago would be great!).

I agree. The Tie Advanced is not broken .

On the other hand, it can be a tiny, weeny bit underwhelming at times and musing on possible tweaks is fun.

Lemon!

That being said:Let us not forget at least half the fun is the fun. This board has a lot of posters who like theoreticals, problem solving, and game craft. We also have a lot of faith in FFG to do well by the game and smooth out rough edges. Sometimes we're just doing the work we want to see done.

well it doesn't have to be an extra attack die, but something clearly needs to be done

i'm kind of looking at it as with the raised points, is it still worth it to take vader? or for approximately the same price one could choose a saber squadron pilot and an academy tie which puts more bodies on the field and more attack dice overall and have better maneuverability

so i don't think adding to its firepower is completely out of the question, but there can be better options, i agree

and something needs to be done in the near future to fix it