There has been a lot of chatter about how broken the TIE advanced it. How it is the worst ship in the game, not woth its points and all that.

Many people have come up with "fixes" that they would like to see implemented.

There biggest complaint is of course that it only has two attack dice.

First I will quickly say that I think 2 attack dice in X-Wing should be called average, not bad.

But some people have been calling for some little boost to it's firepower.

How about Target Lock, which it already has. The TIE Advanced is the only Imperial Fighter, besides the TIE Bomber to have target lock.

It is worth pointing out that 2 attack dice + target lock has an expected value for hits of 1.5

3 attack dice has an expected value of hit of 1.5.

Yes, might point out that T/I could take a focus while the T/A was taking the target lock, and that is try to a point. The T/A two shields means that it won't need to rely on its actions as much as the T/I for defense. One could argue that a T/I is more likely to need to spend its action on evading, barrel rolling out of the way, or use their focus defensively.

But let's not forget Vader who can target lock and focus anytime he wants to. If you do the math, the expected value for the number of hits from 2 dice+TL+F is just a bit less than 3 dice + F. But it is pretty close.

Where the 2 attack dice hurts the T/A the most is at range 3, this is the only range where it is more likely to miss than hit against most ships. People have wanted a small fix for this as well. The T/A can take missiles, this really improves their range 3 attacks. Especially if you have Vader who can target lock and focus. F+TL+Homing missiles has an expected value of is almost 3 and a half hits.

Okay enough talk about the T/A offensive capabilities. I will admit that it isn't its best feature, even if I don't think it is as bad as often represented in these forums. Let's talk about it defensive capabilities.

I think that it is possible that the TIE Advanced is the best ship in the game, for its points, defensively. Three agility dice, evade action, an don't forget the barrel roll. Sometimes there is no action better than simply barrel rolling out of a firing arc, especially if you still get a shot. On top of that the T/A has two shields and three hull giving it the same toughness as a X-Wing, and immunity to being one-shoted. I will say I have regretted not having the shields as I flew T/I much more than I regretted not having one more attack dice.

A very experienced player will have noticed that I pointed out that two of the TIE Advanced's greatest assets were its ability to take the target lock action and the barrel roll action. If have played very much you know that these abilities are much much better on a high piloting skill ship than a low one. And I will confess this is actually a plus for me.

I am not up to date on what the current Star Wars "cannon" is, but way back in the day I read that the TIE advanced (actually called the TIE Interceptor Prototype back then) was built very much to serve Darth Vader's personal needs. And it will for ever be Darth Vader's personal TIE Fighter craft. I fine with the fact that is not a unique ship, because the Star Wars story expanded. But I kind of like that it is a great ship for Darth Vader, and that it is a little less good, when flown by low PS pilots.

I guess after all the arguments that have been made about the TIE Advanced my final one is this: Do a significant number of players consistently use the TIE Advanced? And the answer is yes. Darth Vader is one of my favorite ship/pilots in the game. I will confess to using him less, recently, but that is due to the fact that newer stuff has come out that has attracted my attention.

To prove this I present the X-wing Tactics youtube channel. Of all the tactics he discusses Vader is one of the only ships he dedicated an entire video to.

http://m.youtube.com/channel/UCVfyteSBiELJQtovkGkFxyg

i am a fan of the tie-advanced but i feel its a little over costed. yes vader is amazing - even at 29pts but there is a reason why u dont see tie-advanced ships (not named vader - and very few named vader) finishing in top8s in competitive tournaments anymore. u could argue its the chicken and egg thing where if more people played them they would feature more prominently.

imho the tie-adavnced isnt broken its a little overcosted and therefore gets overlooked. defensively its actually very solid. offensively its average - in my experience u really need to get in to close range for that 2 attack dice to be a non-factor. easier said than done. if missiles were better/more reliable/cheaper i think the tie advanced would see more play.

Tempest Squadron Pilot (21)

Storm Squadron Pilot (23)

If the non-named tie-advanced pilots were a bit cheaper this ship would get more love and less hate.

If Tempest Squadron or Strom Squadron had an elite talent it would see more love (it would be much like the Sabre Squadron intercepter and find its way into more squads).

Players are quite spoilt for choice with ship selections as well. perhaps another reason why the tie-adavnced is overlooked.

If i am building a 100pt squad and i have say 22-28 points left over i dont go a tie-advanced, i go for value like 2 cheap tie-fighters, a mid-range tie-pilot and an academy pilot or an intercepter or even Omicon Group Pilot with Darth Vader Crew.

Vader's ability alone makes this ship pretty spiffy. I certainly intend to try and fly it more often once I get back to my playerbase.
And while it may be off topic, there IS a difference between canon and cannon. It's been popping up a lot lately. Just one of the little things that bothers me.
Maybe the Advanced should have a giant cannon...

like brown bomber has stated it's over costed for what it is and if it was a good ship, it would see a lot more use

this is my take on the machine, it is basically an over glorified A-wing with a sh*tty movement dial without the ability to boost but it can barrel roll, and only has 1 more hit point

it's firepower sucks for it's cost, where as for less points the empire can field an interceptor that may have a little less survivability but has firepower that makes it well worth it's cost and a movement dial that in my opinion can't be beat by anything but the A-wing with the extra green movement of 5

you can try and polish the turd all you like, but in the end it's still a turd

I think what might have been intended with Vaders cost, and the advanced overall, is that it is a rare ship.. almost unique in its use, and by well skilled pilots... all the cries of overcost seem to reflect this, in my view..

Several things:

• To the best of my knowledge, no squad with a TIE Advanced has ever done well in a high level tournament, with the possible exception of Darth Vader when the game was still very young.
• The "average" number of attack dice is something between 2 and 3, so 3 attack dice is above average, and 2 attack dice is below average. Increasing the number of attack dice by 50 increases your damage by more than 50%. Conversely, increasing the number of defense dice by 50% reduces your damage received by slightly less than 33%, (although the latter 33% number becomes a very complicated calculation that is beyond the scope of this discussion). Here are some more useful numbers that reflect actual damage done, and not just the number of hits:
  • 2 attack dice vs 2 defense dice: 0.5078 average damage
  • 3 attack dice vs 2 defense dice: 0.8965 average damage
  • 2 attack dice + focus vs 2 defense dice: 0.8496 average damage
  • 3 attack dice + focus vs 2 defense dice: 1.5315 average damage
  • 2 attack dice vs 3 defense dice: 0.5078 average damage
  • 3 attack dice vs 3 defense dice: 0.6738 average damage
  • 2 attack dice + focus vs 3 defense dice: 0.6134 average damage
  • 3 attack dice + focus vs 3 defense dice: 1.2167 average damage
• From the above numbers, an X-wing at range 2 with focus for attack will do an average of 1.21 damage to a TIE-Advanced. The TIE-Advanced with focus for attack will do 0.85 damage to the X-wing. Draw your own conclusions.
• The TIE-Advanced cannot be directly compared to the TIE-Interceptor. It should be compared against the TIE-Fighter or the X-wing.
• Lanchester's Laws dictate that the value of a combat unit is proportional to the square root of it's damage output times it's health. Comparing it to a TIE-Fighter, this would put the actual value of the ship at about 17 for PS2, plus the extra cost of the Missile Slot + Targeting Computer. That gets you to about 19.
• Vader's ability is the best in the game, but that is completely independent of the TIE-Advanced as a baseline ship in and of itself.

These points have already all been made in the "fixing the TIE Advanced thread". I understand your sincerity, but I'm afraid that you have not addressed any of these points, and have not considered the problem in adequate detail. At some point I'll upload the graphical outputs from my MATLAB scripts to show damage comparisons graphically, rather than numerically. It'll make the results more obvious.

I would not agree that Vader is overpriced, just that he is priced high. All the top tear pilots are around 30 points. You cannot afford to take Vader lightly, but neither can you afford to take Wedge, Soonter Fell, or Tycho lightly. But unless I am going swarm or with a big ship I almost always take one of them, and which one I pick changes quite a bit.

Soonter Fell+PTL+SD is 33 points

Darth Vader +EE is 33 points.

You could make an argument that Soonter Fell is the better choice, but my point is you would need to make the argument. The point is not obviouse.

I think Horton is probably a great choice, but my attention is just drawn away from the Y-wings

I agree that the concusion missile was a little too expensive+unreliable to put on the generic TIE Advanced, but the Homing missile is pretty reliable.

I am realy surprised that we haven't seen more T/A flying arround with Jonus. But the bomber is just really cool.

My original point was not that the TIE Advanced was the best ship in the game or that Vader is the best pilot in the game. My point is that they are viable options. That the ship is not broken. It does not need some sort of adjustment to "fix it".

If you like other ships and combos better that is fine. But I don't feel like anyone is punished because they love Star Wars and just want to use Vader or the TIE Advanced and it turns out that the ship sucks.

And while it may be off topic, there IS a difference between canon and cannon. It's been popping up a lot lately. Just one of the little things that bothers me.

Maybe the Advanced should have a giant cannon...

Take for example the "your" two lines up. I of course meant "you're".

the only thing vader has going for him is his pilot ability

nothing else, once opportunist comes out he might be more viable for his cost, but he's still too much for what he fly's

hell if you could throw vader into an interceptor instead, at 28-30 points i guarantee you'd see him

I agree 100% with the op. I get that with all kinds of math that the ship costs 2 points more than it should.

2 WHOLE POINTS!! Well, that ship just went from awesome to never-going-to-be-flown. Sheesh. 2 frakking points.

My thoughts,

1) It's a game. Two points. Oh well. There are other ships that you can take to tournaments. I usually just play with a group of friends for fun. Heck, we USUALLY take squads that would be worthless in a tournament. But hey, sometimes it's fun to fly green squadron. Sometimes it's fun to see red squadron on the table instead of another bloody rookie pilot.

2) Some players are able to use the tie advanced, particularly darth vader, to great effect. Just like the video posted in the first post, there are other aspects to the game besides shooting. Yes, I know if you break down the math, the way to win is to make sure you're rolling more dice than your opponent, but sometimes it's fun to use different tactics too.

My hat's off to you hrathen.

Edit: I'm not trying to insult anyone. I apologize to anyone who feels insulted by my words. If you get your giggles out of mathing the crap out of the game, do it! (and probably don't ever use a tie advanced or an a wing)

I am realy surprised that we haven't seen more T/A flying arround with Jonus. But the bomber is just really cool.

There was talk of it when Wave 3 came out, and quite a few of us tried it. But well, you almost always get better results out of Bombers. Advanced were just too expensive by the time you put missiles on them, and they just didn't compare.

I am realy surprised that we haven't seen more T/A flying arround with Jonus. But the bomber is just really cool.

Scimitar Squadron Pilot costs 16

Gamma Squadron Pilot costs 18

compared these to the Tie Advanced versions:

Tempest Squadron Pilot (21)

Storm Squadron Pilot (23)

bombers dont get shields but their 6Hull is a fair trade-off. where the advanced is superior is its agility/defense dice but this agility boost comes at a sizeable points cost. The bomber has a capacity for 2missiles/2protons and a bomb. Thats a no-brainer in my book. im not surprise the bomber gets the nod over the advanced, its cheaper . Pure and simple.

This next suggestion belongs in the 'Fixing the tie-advanced' thread but i would like to see a ship specific upgrade for the tie advanced that boosts attack and lowers defense just like expose does but make it cost 0-1pts.

Several things:

• To the best of my knowledge, no squad with a TIE Advanced has ever done well in a high level tournament, with the possible exception of Darth Vader when the game was still very young.

• The "average" number of attack dice is something between 2 and 3, so 3 attack dice is above average, and 2 attack dice is below average. Increasing the number of attack dice by 50 increases your damage by more than 50%. Conversely, increasing the number of defense dice by 50% reduces your damage received by slightly less than 33%, (although the latter 33% number becomes a very complicated calculation that is beyond the scope of this discussion). Here are some more useful numbers that reflect actual damage done, and not just the number of hits:

• From the above numbers, an X-wing at range 2 with focus for attack will do an average of 1.21 damage to a TIE-Advanced. The TIE-Advanced with focus for attack will do 0.85 damage to the X-wing. Draw your own conclusions.
• The TIE-Advanced cannot be directly compared to the TIE-Interceptor. It should be compared against the TIE-Fighter or the X-wing.
• Lanchester's Laws dictate that the value of a combat unit is proportional to the square root of it's damage output times it's health. Comparing it to a TIE-Fighter, this would put the actual value of the ship at about 17 for PS2, plus the extra cost of the Missile Slot + Targeting Computer. That gets you to about 19.
• Vader's ability is the best in the game, but that is completely independent of the TIE-Advanced as a baseline ship in and of itself.

These points have already all been made in the "fixing the TIE Advanced thread". I understand your sincerity, but I'm afraid that you have not addressed any of these points, and have not considered the problem in adequate detail. At some point I'll upload the graphical outputs from my MATLAB scripts to show damage comparisons graphically, rather than numerically. It'll make the results more obvious.

Point one Darth Vader did show up in winning tournament lists when the game was young. Newer ships have an appeal simply for being new. I stated that you really shouldn't have too many Ace level (around 30 points) in your list. So there very existence of Firesprays and Soonter Fell will reduce he number of lists you see with Vader. Simply put People (even tournament players like to try new things)

From a purely mathematical level just adding up all the attack dice from all the different ships and then dividing by the number of ships types to find the Mean attack dice is flawed logic. If you really wanted to find the mean attack dice you would need to take weighted averages based on how often different ships were used. For example the TIE is by far the most common ship used, and Named YT-1300 (though they show up in a lot of games) do not show up in any great numbers. And yes there are almost no ships with only one attack dice, and they don't show up very often at all, but if you were to take a weighted average it would be above 2, but not significantly so. Of course if you used the mode for your measure of center 2 is obviously average. Of course if you have studied advanced mathematics (I have a masters degree with an emphasis in statistics probability and teaching.) then you know that best measure of center is the median. (Mean is used more because it is easier to calculate and predict in large populations, try finding p-scores for medians they are a bear.) And according to the median 2 would most definitely be the center.

I will admit that an X-wing shooting at a TIE advanced will tend to do more damage than a TIE Advanced shooting at an X-wing. especially if you don't include the TIE Advanced ability to Barrel Roll or evade in the calculation. Don't underestimate the skill 9 barrel roll. If I can shoot you and you can't shoot me I don't think we need to do probability calculations to figure that out.

Actually I do think the best comparison for a TIE Advanced is the TIE Interceptor. It is all a matter of what ships you are going to pick to put in your squadron. If you are playing the Empire, the X-Wing isn't a choice, so who cares if it is better. That becomes a question of what team is better. Deciding between the TIE Advanced and the standard TIE is a choice between a cheap swarm fighter or a more expensive elite or quality fighter. We can discuss swarms vs aces all day, but it is as much a question of taste as it is absolute superiority. Both the TIE Advanced and the TIE Interceptor are "elite" imperial fighters. Taking one probably means you want take the other.

Before I say anything on your next point I just want to say that I have never heard about Lanchester's Law, but the very fact that a mathematical law like this exists is AWESOME. I will be googling this as soon as I am done here. However, Lanchester's Law calculates the value of a ship, if I am understanding it correctly, solely on its attack ability and its hit points. If you discount a units defensive abilities, of course, you will under value the TIE Advanced.

As for Vader's ability being great completely separate from the TIE advanced is true but only on a theoretical level. as the rules are currently written Vader's ability can only be taken with the TIE Advance. Therefore Vader existence is a property of the TIE Advanced. No discussion of the TIE advanced in general can discount it. If your point is all TIE Advanced but Vader suck (or are underpowered/overpriced)

My point is that the TIE Advanced is Vader's ship. The vast majority of the times I have seen the TIE Advanced on the table it has been Vader. And despite what that means for the tactics, that fits how I feel the TIE Advanced should be played. I am okay that there aren't TIE Advanced swarms out there. That does not seem to fit with the spirit of the TIE advanced. This is purely a matter of taste and can't be described mathematically. But the more you study math, the more you will learn that it is a structure that we overlay on our universe. Its use requires simplification and estimation. No mathematical model perfectly matches reality. understanding that fact about math is requisite in being able to use it effectively. Math can illuminate many things, but it will miss things as well. Understanding what your model will illuminate and what it will obfuscate is at least as important is your ability to create your model.

You stated that I did not previously address your issues I hope this post did.

I will only end with my original thesis, I am not saying that the TIE Advanced is the best ship in the game or that it is better than any specific ship. I am simply say that it works within the confines of the game. It is a very viable choice for anyone who wants to fly them in their squadron.

But, obviously, if a ship does not show up in the top tables, it is a bad ship. Because, lord knows that competitive play is the end all be all of balance. And dear god do I hate Math Wing. Do the formulas take account things like maneuverability? Because honestly, a Tempest pilot should easily take on a Rookie, thanks to Barrel Roll.

Honestly, the TIE Advanced suffers by being Imperial, and currently, limited to 100 pt squads. A lot of the Imperial's greatest strength is the swarm, and it has very little support for the tank ship that it is. The TIE Bomber has better support, because while it is a worse tank, it is cheaper.

Now, when Epic is out, the TIE Advanced will be able to make a decent support option. And there are a few things I want to try with Vader and Squad Leader once Imperial Aces comes out (not, never put Opportunist on Vader, waste of points). But, whatever boosts FFG does make for the Advanced, it will never satisfy some people. Just looking at what the other thread has devolved to.

I agree 100% with the op. I get that with all kinds of math that the ship costs 2 points more than it should.

2 WHOLE POINTS!! Well, that ship just went from awesome to never-going-to-be-flown. Sheesh. 2 frakking points.

My thoughts,

Exactly! And even to say that being off by 2 points makes in unviable in a tournament, means you better be dang sure your calculations covered everything. (which of course is impossible)

I would really like someone to tell me exactly how many points Darth Vader's ability to Barrel Roll is worth. Few actions have ever given me such joy as Barrell Roll. Or even better Barrle Roll + boost. I think such a mathematical endeavor could be worth a PhD in probability and game theory.

I think your missing the point, he is not discounting defence, he is weighting it. An agility dice IS worth less than an Attack dice because a) it has more faces with successes b) excess evades are lost.

You can't definitively state it's X points overcosted, but it IS definitely overcosted versus the A-Wing which is the closest ship to it statwise and 2pts is a conservative estimate.

You say 2pts is not much, with 4 ships that is 8% of your force, it is noticable.

Doesn't the fact that a tie tips to the defender count for something too?

Sithborg hinted at it, but it's worth reinforcing it, the problem with the argument that it would see more use in top 8 squads if it was the right cost is null. The tournament format rewards offensive thinking because if you don't destroy a minimum of points in the time limit, you get a modified win as opposed to a full win. That doesn't mean that the ship doesn't have its place, it just means that its place isn't tournament play.

That being said, it's disappointing for what I want to use it for, but the cost is right on. Let's analyze...

X-wing to TIE Advanced:

-you flip values of attack, and defense which is slightly in favor of the X wing (basically mitigated with the addition of the Evade, but that's a separate point)

-you have missle's instead of protons, which is slightly in favor of the Advanced (less so now that APT's are out, but as of wave 1 that was more significant)

-you gain two actions which is significantly in favor of the Advanced

-you lose the astromech which is significantly in favor of the X-wing.

I could be missing something, and I'm happy to listen to your thoughts on it, but my current take on it is that it's right on cost.

It fairer to compair to the A-Wing. You are swapping an ungodly dial for 1 hull, a boost for a barrel-roll and paying 3pts for the privalage.

Never tell me the odds!

Sorry couldn't resist. Very good thread, and I can't wait to try out the advanced when I get one.

I think your missing the point, he is not discounting defence, he is weighting it. An agility dice IS worth less than an Attack dice because a) it has more faces with successes b) excess evades are lost.

Who is missing the point? me? I was simply say that Liechester's law doesn't take into account defense. If it does then I miss understood.

I will admit that attack dice are better than agility dice. Extra face of success and all that. My point though was never about better or worse, but broken vs playable. I say the TIE Advanced is playable.

Let's just pretend that we could do a mathematical model to find the value of a ship. We don't even need to pretend it is perfect, only better than the model used by FFG to come up with the point values for their ship.

There would be ships that are slightly better than others. Other ships wouldn't be quite as good a "buy" for your points. Does that mean that the game is broken? Or should we all just take that one mathematically best ship or combo?

Even if you did, skill and luck would still play a factor. But If we wanted to play a game so mathematically perfect, wouldn't we just play go or chess. These games are all about mastering the abstract mechanics of the game. But I hate chess becauseI want my horse do do horse like things. I don't care that is moves like an L.

One of the greatest things about the TIE Advanced is that Vader is cool to me. Just be for my son could talk he would look for me saying "Pooh Paah" imitating the Darth Vader breathing I did for him as I read him his Star Wars Villains picture book. Vader is Awesome. And as it turns out he is pretty awesome in the game too. Is some one else more effective? maybe. I don't care Vader is too cool. Might he be better in a TIE Interceptor, maybe. But I am sorta glad you can't put him in one. Because his ship is the TIE Advanced.

I have played with Vader lots. I have never felt as if he was a mistake to take, never.

I actually like the most ships in the game tend to be TIEs and X-Wings, because that fits with how I want my Star Wars games to be.

I would not be surprised if FFG gave the X-wing and TIE Fighter a slight points break just to keep them dominant in the game as they released more and more updates. It they did I say thank you I think it was a good call. But that does not make the TIE Advanced broken, or a bad idea to take.

I think your missing the point, he is not discounting defence, he is weighting it. An agility dice IS worth less than an Attack dice because a) it has more faces with successes b) excess evades are lost.

You can't definitively state it's X points overcosted, but it IS definitely overcosted versus the A-Wing which is the closest ship to it statwise and 2pts is a conservative estimate.

You say 2pts is not much, with 4 ships that is 8% of your force, it is noticable.

I disagree Rodent, I think the Advanced shouldnt be compared to an A wing.. the A wing is a rocket.. the Advanced isn't..

I also feel there is a part of the equasion still missing. I feel we don't know the why of what FFG did to figure costs and their viability. We are guessing with all these formulas and such.

I also think there is one more thing we don't look at.. the empire loses.. and the ties always get shot down..

I feel they could ve given more hull points to all ships and used a damage deck that gave a more decisive determination of 'oneshots' .. in the movies you see both sides get shot down from one volly, sure the X wings might have already had their shields shot out.. but still it's not always shown and some ships were nondoubt fresh..

This is a game an not all aspects can be 'mathed' out..

Just my thoughts..

It fairer to compair to the A-Wing. You are swapping an ungodly dial for 1 hull, a boost for a barrel-roll and paying 3pts for the privalage.

Well 1 extra hull does cost 3 points as an upgrade.

Boost < Barrel-Roll IMO

A-Wing wins on the Dial no argument on that.

I do prefer the Prototype Pilot to the Tempest Pilot. Of course their roles in their relative fleets are very different.

Whose ability is better Tycho's or Vaders.

Give Tycho PTL and it is almost as good, in some ways better, but overall I'd take Vader. They were close until I realized that Tycho had used his oh so valuable elite upgrade, and Vader still had his.

The two ships are very close. An argument could be made for one being better than the other, but I think the are close enough that you can't call either one broken.

Here is the thing with the A-wing. To me, it seems fair. Barrel Roll vs Boost is fairly even, though I tend to think Barrel Roll is stronger. 1 pt less for PS, seems fine. 3 pts for hull is at least what they hint at with Hull Upgrade. Not off. The issue that seems to come up is the dial. So far, we have ONE ship, that the dial has obviously had an effect on the cost, and it is neither the A-wing or Interceptor.

And yet, the A-wing suffers from similar issues, with fulfilling a role that the faction doesn't really support at the moment. Fragile, swarmy ships are not the Rebels strength. Although, I will say, that the support the Rebels have for the A-wing is much better (thanks to the HWK) than for the Advanced.

It fairer to compair to the A-Wing. You are swapping an ungodly dial for 1 hull, a boost for a barrel-roll and paying 3pts for the privalage.

This is the only argument that I actually agree with against the Advance since all the Math seems to ignore the price of actions and movement. With the upcoming hull upgrade we now know that FFG values a hull point at three points and the objectively better dial and equivalent movement favor the A-wing. I still don't think it's overcosted though. Vader and Mareek are both simply better than Tycho (awesome though he is) and Arvel. And just the same way I'm hesitant to field a HWK without a pilot ability I would normally want to put a named behind the wheel of an Advance.

Also worth noting, the survivability of the Advance means that carrying missiles to use at the best moment instead of as an alpha strike is inherently less risky.

In the end though, no one's going to convince anyone else. People who have flown Advances and won will like then, people who haven't won't. People that analyze the numbers before hand won't fly them at all which puts them in the latter camp. It's a matter of taste.

Another note, the internet and tournament scene have created on giant community and as we all know, playgroups have their own leanings in games. I'd be curious how popular the advance is in say, a dozen groups where no one competes or hangs out on forums for the game, would w see a difference? Maybe, maybe not...