Infused Knowledge

By Covered in Weasels, in Dark Heresy Second Edition Beta

INFUSED KNOWLEDGE

Tier: 3
Prerequisite: Intelligence 40, Lore (any one)
Aptitudes: Intelligence, Knowledge
The Acolyte has been imbued with a great breadth of lore, either through punishing noetic techniques or by arcane methods kept secret by the guardians of technology and learning. He counts as having all Common Lore and Scholastic Lore skills at rank 1 (Known)—basically he knows something about everything. If he wishes to later improve his Lore skills, these advances must be bought using experience points (from rank 1) as normal. He also adds one degree of success to any successful Common or Scholastic Lore tests, due to his ingrained training.

This talent seems... very strong. However, I don't actually know if it's broken -- it gives you access to all the Knowledge skills that may not be useful in most circumstances, mitigating the massive XP sink that Lore skills normally represent.

What do you guys think? Personally I'd be inclined to allow it, but it might be wise to remove the bit about adding one DoS to all CL and SL tests. Counting all CL and SL skills as Known is a strong benefit already, one that IMO is easily worth the 400xp required for a Tier 3 talent.

I like listing all the Common and Scholastic Lores to push in how overdone this talent is.

Common Lore (Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Arbites, Adeptus Astartes, Adeptus Astra Telepathica, Adeptus Mechanicus, Administratum, Askellon Sector, Chartist Captains, Collegia Titanicus, Ecclesiarchy, Imperaial Creed, Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, Imperium, Navigators, Planetary Defence Forces, Rogue Traders, Schola Progenium, Tech, Underworld, War)
AND

Scholastic Lore (Astromancy, Beasts, Bureaucracy, Chymistry, Cryptology, Heraldry, Imperial Warrants, Judgement, Legend, Technology, Numerology, Occult, Philosophy, Tactica Imperialis)

400xp for two matching, 600 for one, 1200 for none (though it is an easy talent for adepts and similar careers to grab).

I think it should be "choose X lores" from the common and scholastic list, letting a character be "infused" with a quick briefing on a variey of subjects, without giving them access to that monolithic amount of lores that just becomes silly. Maybe 5 from each? Pick 10? Being able to get a lore as known for 40 to 60 to 120 xp each (1/10th) is a significant discount, lets an adept type character flesh out their weak spots and rely on their powerful Int to pass the test, while spending the XP on their core lores. Not to mention that sages can auto-suceed on lore and logic tests with a fate point and get DoS = to their int bonus (4-5 on average let's say)

Infused Knowledge was reasonable in Only War because in Only War, Lore skills gave you minor benefits at best. It's heinously broken in an investigative game.

Edited by Tom Cruise

Maybe you should increase the number of prerequities ?

You need at least 4-6 Lores to take it ?

That wouldn't fit the fluff of it being "infused" through rote memorization, implant chips, recordings playing while you sleep, etc. and that is the reason why it can't be advanced, you know a smattering of information in several subjects, but to LEARN about it you need to apply yourself to go beyond the rudiments. Talking with a friend, 8 lores seems more than fair (and remove the +1 DoS) for a person who buys lores at 100xp (both aptitudes), getting them for 50xp each is a boon (and helping to fill in the gaps in knowledge), for one aptitude at 600xp/75xp each still a good deal as they pay 200 less than half price for the scholastic lores and (200xp for +1) and with no aptitudes at 1200xp/150xp each are still paying half.

So for all of the options, it works out well pricewise and gives a nice discount in return for the limitation (of not being able to advance the skill).

Anyone have a better idea on how to salvage the talent?

how about: improvising knowledge skills is possible and suffers only -10.

how about: improvising knowledge skills is possible and suffers only -10.

That's what I was considering. Basically your character knows a little about everything, but not enough to truly count the skill as "Known." Because of this, the penalty for untrained CL and SL use is reduced to -10.

Also, I don't feel like the +1 DoS on Lore checks should be in the talent, since that turns it into practically a must-buy for a scholarly character. I do not like must-buy abilities in RPG games. Without that clause, the talent seems like a good way to represent a character with a wide breadth of knowledge in many subjects rather than deeply specialized knowledge in a few fields.

Infused Knowledge was reasonable in Only War because in Only War, Lore skills gave you minor benefits at best. It's heinously broken in an investigative game.

Well, IK first appeared in BC, which has investigative aspects. BC is however a high-power game.

how about: improvising knowledge skills is possible and suffers only -10.

Or maybe simply allow you to take tests on untrained lore skills at all, since this isn't actually possible normally (tests on specialist skills can't be taken unless trained)

right, I think its not possible if you dont have the skill (which actually makes sense)

how about: improvising knowledge skills is possible and suffers only -10.

Or maybe simply allow you to take tests on untrained lore skills at all, since this isn't actually possible normally (tests on specialist skills can't be taken unless trained)

I like the -10 idea a lot.

I didn't mind the talentit in BC when your standard character knowledge character was a lovecraftian fusion of science wizard and daemon cyborg, but in the low level gritty heresy it's just annoying. My mechanicus character used his lores and DoS incessantly to tackle any problem, which was fine, but it really didn't feel like he'd earned it with a 400 exp expidenture.

So -10, or -20 with the DoS is my vote

I like the - 10 idea but also think that perhaps selecting 2x your intel bonus worth of "Know" lore skills (Except forbidden) would work as well.

-10 works better for all, but that is over 30 lores still. Having Int Bonus x2 (6-10) at +0 sounds great

Well, it's a little realistic. I mean, I could tell you a few trivial facts about physics or the Roman Empire, despite not studying them at all. It's like Wikipedia knowledge.

However, after thinking about it for the last few hours, Im more on board with -20 bonus. Pretty much just making all regular knowledge lores untrained but usable skills

It is over THIRTY of them, it stops being a way to buff out your lineup and stops making sense, even with a -20 mod. I love the idea of quickly being able to pick up a smattering of knowledge, with a few caveats, but it justs seems....wrong, being able to know THAT much about so many subjects. If you make the penalty too hefty, even with a good int score (40-50) it becomes too hard to pass even with mods (which GMs tend to skip over).

Well, it's a little realistic. I mean, I could tell you a few trivial facts about physics or the Roman Empire, despite not studying them at all. It's like Wikipedia knowledge.

However, after thinking about it for the last few hours, Im more on board with -20 bonus. Pretty much just making all regular knowledge lores untrained but usable skills

This, and this is how I'll handle it. Of course, I'm splitting skills into Basic, Advanced and Specialized, with no bearing on whether it's also a Skill Group or not.

And I'll make Infused Knowledge make all Lores one step easier; Specialized becomes Advanced, Advanced become Basic, and I'm considering adding that it also allows you to assist on all Basic Lore Tests, provided the one you are helping is at least Trained.

Seems pretty complicated and still lets access be open to a wider variety of subjects than would be plausible to know. I mean, over 30 subjects, most of which have minimal overlap on, while on the other hand I could see a training program in the quasi-science 40k has that rapidly teaches a ton of facts without any deeper understanding.

I personally don't see the point in a talent that just grants training in a limited number of skills for a reduced price. If we're going to do that, why not just reduce the cost of all Lore skills by 50% (with the possible exception of Forbidden Lore) and be done with it?

I don't feel that a talent which lets PCs make lore checks untrained at -20 is strong enough to warrant purchasing. At the very least, it wouldn't be worth a tier 3 talent IMO. -10 seems good to me -- it suggests that the character actually knows something about the topic in question, even if their understanding isn't on the same level as someone who Knows the skill.

I'll run the proposed -20 and -10 versions of this talent by my players tonight and see what they think.

Don't forget they also get a bonus DoS. That alone is rather powerful. So -20 and. DoS seems pretty fair

Don't forget they also get a bonus DoS. That alone is rather powerful. So -20 and. DoS seems pretty fair

In my previous post I was considering the talent without the additional DoS benefit. Either -20 with DoS bonus or -10 without DoS bonus could work IMO.

I think IK was introduced specifically because a lot of people complained about there being too many Lore skills.

I think IK was introduced specifically because a lot of people complained about there being too many Lore skills.

Is... is that possible?

I don't have the book in front of me, but does IK actually give you a rank in the knowledge? As in, if I buy IK, and then later on want to pick up a Scholastic Lore, do I buy the first dot for no effect, or is my first purchase the second dot of the skill?

I don't have the book in front of me, but does IK actually give you a rank in the knowledge? As in, if I buy IK, and then later on want to pick up a Scholastic Lore, do I buy the first dot for no effect, or is my first purchase the second dot of the skill?

You have to buy the first dot for no effect.

Yep, thank Him of the Throne for that. Otherwise it would have gone from broken to impossibly so