Wasn't there a talent like that in DH1?

I'm not that fond of the new AAT, with that and two rolls on the phenomena table chances of perils is near nill. And most of the phenomenas have negible (in the large scale of things) effects.

Wasn't there a talent like that in DH1?

Invocation I think - a skill.

Well, it is giving out a benefit to being sanctioned, which IIRC almost none of the books have (besides Astropaths, for whom fettering makes sense).

Well, it is giving out a benefit to being sanctioned, which IIRC almost none of the books have (besides Astropaths, for whom fettering makes sense).

Quick query - what exists in the collective community consciousness to suggest that Astropaths are inherently safer than other psykers in the Imperium? Background-wise, Astropaths are drawn from amongst what are referred to as Secondary Psykers (the few Secondaries who don't become Astropaths are used to fuel the Astronomicon), whose powers are typically lesser in stability and magnitude than the rarer, more stable Primary (or Primaris) Psykers who serve in a variety of other roles. Indeed, the more numerous, less potent nature of Secondary Psykers is why Astropaths need to be Soul-Bound, where other Sanctioned Psykers do not; the Imperium needs a lot of Astropaths, and needs to perpetually replenish their number, to the point where relying purely on the fewer, stronger Primary Psykers would be insufficent.

Typically speaking, Astropaths function in collectives - choirs - to send and receive messages. It's a rare Astropath - like the Astropaths Transcendent in Rogue Trader - who is able to function effectively alone. Any Imperial Psyker who isn't an Astropath is, by definition, classified as a Primary Psyker - strong and stable enough to serve the Imperium without being Soul-Bound.

Well, the soul binding process, which is a more powerful form of sanctioning.

So Astropath = More locked down, leaner battery

Sanctioned Psyker = Less limits, stronger power source

witch/chaos = no limits, burns out faster

I dunno what FFG books have said about the sanctioning process but imo the sanctioning process isn't perfect. The best testing can only tell if a psyker is safe at the time and not for all time. Also, it assumes the testing process isnt subject to error or corruption.... Which would make it unique in the imperium.

Sanctioing helps a BIT it seems, and will kill any too weak to even stand a chance of controlling their power. Astropaths are soulbound to the emperor, which does offer very real protection against the perils of the warp. Also tends to turn them blind, so it does have some downsides.

Just remember that sanctioning and soul binding are two VERY different things. Almost all astropaths are soul bound , while not all psykers are soul bound.

Which is why I thought it was nice that for the first real time in DH, a fully sanctioned and trained psyker actually got some advantage over an unsanctioned psyker (there was at least 1 option to play one in DH, beastmaster alt career?), without going to the fettered "no chance at perils". It seems to offer a good compromise between the two. And correct me if I am wrong, but it doesn't seemt that powerful.

Well, the soul binding process, which is a more powerful form of sanctioning.

So Astropath = More locked down, leaner battery

Sanctioned Psyker = Less limits, stronger power source

witch/chaos = no limits, burns out faster

Except that isn't the case.

As the Imperium regards things - defined by the Codex Imperialis included in the 2nd Edition 40k boxed set - Psykers come in three broad varieties. The overwhelming majority are 'Sacrifices', those of too meagre power or too limited control (and likely both) to be of use, who serve the Emperor by being sacrificed into the Golden Throne. The next smallest group, those with useful degrees of power, but insufficient control are Secondary Psykers, who are - barring a small proportion who join the Choir of the Astronomicon - exclusively subjected to the Soul Binding in order to allow them to become (and survive becoming) Astropaths of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. The smallest minority are Primary Psykers, whose innate power and control are sufficient that they require only training and sanctioning to become useful servants of the Imperium.

The point here is that it isn't a choice between power and control. Astropaths innately have little stability or control, and must rely on external methods - being Soul Bound to the Emperor, at the cost of their physical senses (almost always sight, and often other senses as time passes). They're still trained and sanctioned - they need to be in order to actually use their powers - but the Soul Binding is a requirement for them even to qualify for that.

I dunno what FFG books have said about the sanctioning process but imo the sanctioning process isn't perfect. The best testing can only tell if a psyker is safe at the time and not for all time. Also, it assumes the testing process isnt subject to error or corruption.... Which would make it unique in the imperium.

Of course it's not perfect... it is, afterall, a system implemented by fallible mortals. It is, however, a system developed by the Emperor (who set in motion the use of Astropaths, around whom the systems of testing and sanctioning were constructed), which makes it pretty damned effective.

Sanctioing helps a BIT it seems, and will kill any too weak to even stand a chance of controlling their power. Astropaths are soulbound to the emperor, which does offer very real protection against the perils of the warp. Also tends to turn them blind, so it does have some downsides.

If you're getting to the point of Sanctioning, then you've already been proven to have no chance of controlling your power. Those poor souls are either slain upon discovery (too dangerous to transport) or fed to the Golden Throne.

Those who are Sanctioned - whether they've been Soul Bound (because they're unstable Secondary Psykers) or not (because they're naturally stable Primary Psykers) - are those Psykers deemed to be sufficiently safe for the Imperium to use.

Sanctioning is the process by which a Psyker is judged by the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and the Scholastica Psykana to be "fit for purpose". It is accompanied by extremely invasive physical, psychological and spiritual tests and extensive training.

Just remember that sanctioning and soul binding are two VERY different things. Almost all astropaths are soul bound , while not all psykers are soul bound.

Actually, all Astropaths are Soul Bound. Any Psyker sufficiently stable to not require Soul Binding is too rare and too valuable to the Imperium to be used in such a way, and the vast majority of Psykers that require the Soul Binding will be Astropaths until death.

Thing is, the Soul Bound isn't an alternative to Sanctioning. It's a distinct process performed through necessity. It isn't inherently some mark of superior safety and stability, but an act performed to ensure that mankind has enough Astropaths by converting those who would otherwise be worthless to the Imperium into something useful.

I can't work out this forum's quotation system, apologies.

Saying that the Emperor set up the system doesn't strike me as a very good argument - you could say that about almost everything in the Imperium, it's the decay since then.

I'd argue that the Soul-binding process is the exception as it involves the intervention of the Emperor, and thus is still fairly reliable (Given errors in the Golden Throne, etc) while the sanctioning process, run by mortals, is not.

My point is that it's the bureaucracy that comes in before a psyker is catergorised into Throne Food/Soul Binding/Sanctioning. How many perfectly good psykers have been sent to the throne because they got that wrong? And equally how many psykers have been sanctioned incorrectly when they should have been soulbound?

Especially as the sanctioning seems to be a one-time only thing - what happens if people get ill, get down, or generally have their will to resist degraded.

My reading is that If they wanted them to be safer, then they'd soulbind all the sanctioned psykers too - why they don't is probably the utility of psykers elsewhere, and some remnant of the "psykers will eventually be the new man".

Just remember that sanctioning and soul binding are two VERY different things. Almost all astropaths are soul bound , while not all psykers are soul bound.

Actually, all Astropaths are Soul Bound. Any Psyker sufficiently stable to not require Soul Binding is too rare and too valuable to the Imperium to be used in such a way, and the vast majority of Psykers that require the Soul Binding will be Astropaths until death.

Thing is, the Soul Bound isn't an alternative to Sanctioning. It's a distinct process performed through necessity. It isn't inherently some mark of superior safety and stability, but an act performed to ensure that mankind has enough Astropaths by converting those who would otherwise be worthless to the Imperium into something useful.

That's what I was getting at

I can't work out this forum's quotation system, apologies.

Saying that the Emperor set up the system doesn't strike me as a very good argument - you could say that about almost everything in the Imperium, it's the decay since then.

I'd argue that the Soul-binding process is the exception as it involves the intervention of the Emperor, and thus is still fairly reliable (Given errors in the Golden Throne, etc) while the sanctioning process, run by mortals, is not.

My point is that it's the bureaucracy that comes in before a psyker is catergorised into Throne Food/Soul Binding/Sanctioning. How many perfectly good psykers have been sent to the throne because they got that wrong? And equally how many psykers have been sanctioned incorrectly when they should have been soulbound?

Especially as the sanctioning seems to be a one-time only thing - what happens if people get ill, get down, or generally have their will to resist degraded.

My reading is that If they wanted them to be safer, then they'd soulbind all the sanctioned psykers too - why they don't is probably the utility of psykers elsewhere, and some remnant of the "psykers will eventually be the new man".

Actually, much of the current Imperium, while inspired by mortal interpretations of the Emperor's Vision, weren't established by his direct action, and much about those things has changed in the millennia since the Emperor walked amongst men.

Yes, mistakes will happen... but this is a life-or-death matter on a multiplanetary scale. Mistakes are not only costly, but deadly. The matter is the sole and specific remit of the the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, who are under intense scrutiny each and every hour of every day to ensure that problems are minimised.

And sure, the will of individuals can weaken - but we're not really talking about conscious thought or the capacity to willingly resist temptation here, but the innate and fundamental metaphysical stability of a psyker's abilities. Many, if not most, of the threats presented by uncontrolled Psykers are ones that have nothing to do with that Psyker's ability or willingness to resist temptation, and instead are caused by entities who use the Psyker's fundamental nature as a conduit into the physical universe. Resistance to such threats - better described as stability, rather than control, as control suggests conscious influence - what is being tested when it comes to Sanctioning (and what is being reinforced to acceptable levels with Soul Binding), not vulnerability to temptation.

Vulnerability to the corruption and temptation of the Warp... well, in those situations, you stab the Psyker in the heart or shoot him in the head. That these Psykers - including Astropaths - are Sanctioned doesn't mean the Imperium doesn't watch them in perpetuity for signs of moral or metaphysical threat. Sanctioning is, in essence, a giant rubber stamp that says "this psyker is useful for now". All Imperial Psykers are Sanctioned - that is, they're deemed by the Imperium to be more useful than dangerous - and this includes Astropaths.

Thing is, you're still approaching it from the perspective that "the Soul Binding is better". Were that the case, it would be used universally on all psykers spawned by Man. Except that Astartes Librarians are amongst the most stable and potent of human psykers (Astartes have an innate greater resistance to the deleterious effects of the Warp, making them more resistant to mutation and more able to channel its power without unintended consequence) without needing to be Soul Bound. Those classified as Primary Psykers are similarly of sufficient power and stability to be suitable for service. They're already pretty much as stable and safe as a human psyker can be.

Being Soul Bound changes a vast number of Psykers from "unsuitable" to "suitable", while also physically, emotionally and mentally crippling them in a variety of ways through several hours of unimaginable (and occasionally fatal) agony that burns away part of their nervous system and noticeably alters their psyches (in a way that focusses the power they do have towards Astrotelepathy). It, and the years of constant service, shortens their lives, and most burn out entirely within a few short decades, and that's if they're lucky and aren't executed as a precaution during a psychic disturbance.

Actually, much of the current Imperium, while inspired by mortal interpretations of the Emperor's Vision, weren't established by his direct action, and much about those things has changed in the millennia since the Emperor walked amongst men.

That was my point - which is to say that the Soul Binding process was established by the Emperor and that given it still requires his direct intervention it's a process that will retain efficiency compared to the sanctioning process that is run without his intervention.

Yes, mistakes will happen... but this is a life-or-death matter on a multiplanetary scale. Mistakes are not only costly, but deadly. The matter is the sole and specific remit of the the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, who are under intense scrutiny each and every hour of every day to ensure that problems are minimised.

Lots of mistakes in 40k are deadly, that doesn't mean the Imperium can't screw it up

Thing is, you're still approaching it from the perspective that "the Soul Binding is better". Were that the case, it would be used universally on all psykers spawned by Man. Except that Astartes Librarians are amongst the most stable and potent of human psykers (Astartes have an innate greater resistance to the deleterious effects of the Warp, making them more resistant to mutation and more able to channel its power without unintended consequence) without needing to be Soul Bound. Those classified as Primary Psykers are similarly of sufficient power and stability to be suitable for service. They're already pretty much as stable and safe as a human psyker can be.

Being Soul Bound changes a vast number of Psykers from "unsuitable" to "suitable", while also physically, emotionally and mentally crippling them in a variety of ways through several hours of unimaginable (and occasionally fatal) agony that burns away part of their nervous system and noticeably alters their psyches (in a way that focusses the power they do have towards Astrotelepathy). It, and the years of constant service, shortens their lives, and most burn out entirely within a few short decades, and that's if they're lucky and aren't executed as a precaution during a psychic disturbance.

Yes, I am approaching it from that angle - personally, I think it fits the evidence from what I know of the setting. YMMV, but I don't think it's a mistake to think that given the interaction with the Emperor.

I'm not saying that a soulbound psyker will be safer then the strongest Primaris Psyker - the whole point of psykers as the "new race" is that eventually all of them will be strong enough to resist any corruption. However, I do believe that the average soulbound psyker could be safer than the average primaries psyker - in part because of problems in the latter process.

As to why they don't soulbound the lot of them (which I expressed some puzzlement at in my last post), you've kind of answered my question for me. A Soul bound psyker has many drawbacks and limited utility.

I think there is some light on this in the HH novels. The implication that I get from them is that early in the Crusade there were *no* other psykers in general use apart from Astropaths (and the occasional oddity like the Sigilite) - the Librariums were an experiment, which the Emperor explicitly ended after Nicea (no matter how stupid that seemed...)

It was only during the Horus Heresy that the Librariums crept back in as their utility in fighting the warp became to be valued (Someone, unknown at the current time, had to have ruled them legal again - my bet is Robute Guillman)

So sort of returning to the original theme, it's possible that the use of none astropaths in the Imperium is a product of the post-HH, started as response to fighting chaos that spread to other imperial organisations.

Anyway, this is probably OT for this thread. We could take it to a new thread if you wanted to discuss further?

By the way, does anyone know how the hell this works?

RESISTING ENEMY PSYCHIC POWERS

If they are attacked by enemy psychic powers, psykers have far better mental defences than “normal” people, using the power of the Warp to fight back. When making an Opposed focus power test to resist a psychic attack, a psyker first decides if he will push or not, then adds his resultant psy rating (including any bonus from pushing) to the Willpower test to resist the enemy power. His, however, roll can create psychic phenomena in just the same manner as the attacker

Can you give me an example of this?

RESISTING ENEMY PSYCHIC POWERS

If they are attacked by enemy psychic powers, psykers have far better mental defences than “normal” people, using the power of the Warp to fight back. When making an Opposed focus power test to resist a psychic attack, a psyker first decides if he will push or not, then adds his resultant psy rating (including any bonus from pushing) to the Willpower test to resist the enemy power. His, however, roll can create psychic phenomena in just the same manner as the attacker

Can you give me an example of this?

Telepathic Link: the psyker tries to mind scan another psyker but oh noes! The target discovers (with Psyniscience) that someone tries to pluck his brain out of his head! So he gains +10 to the opposed WP test for each Psy Rating he has. But if he rolls doubles on the test then he will summon Psychic Phenomena.

This method works for all psychic powers that requires an opposed test for focus power.

RESISTING ENEMY PSYCHIC POWERS

If they are attacked by enemy psychic powers, psykers have far better mental defences than “normal” people, using the power of the Warp to fight back. When making an Opposed focus power test to resist a psychic attack, a psyker first decides if he will push or not, then adds his resultant psy rating (including any bonus from pushing) to the Willpower test to resist the enemy power. His, however, roll can create psychic phenomena in just the same manner as the attacker

Can you give me an example of this?

Telepathic Link: the psyker tries to mind scan another psyker but oh noes! The target discovers (with Psyniscience) that someone tries to pluck his brain out of his head! So he gains +10 to the opposed WP test for each Psy Rating he has. But if he rolls doubles on the test then he will summon Psychic Phenomena.

This method works for all psychic powers that requires an opposed test for focus power.

Erhm... I like it very much, but:

- Where do you get that +10 per PR from?

- I guess that if you Push is when you get that pesky PP unless it's a double?

- Where do you get that +10 per PR from?

- I guess that if you Push is when you get that pesky PP unless it's a double?

Uh, that is somewhere in the rules that you get +10 bonus per PR for everything.

Yes. If you push, you will summon Psychic Phenomena on any rolls except on doubles.

Had to recheck that AtoMaki. Am I the only one disturbed how safe psykers are now? Really? Fettering gone won't really matter as general use and even pushing is safer in general. I am dissapoint.

Erhm... actually, it's the other way round after update 6, page 3, Step 2: Make Focus Power test, paragraph 2:

The power being used determines what skill or characteristic the test uses. As mentioned above, this test receives a +10 bonus for each point the power’s psy rating is under the psyker’s base psy rating, or a –10 penalty for each point it is over that value.

So again, how you do make the math for a counter-focus power?

Erhm... actually, it's the other way round after update 6, page 3, Step 2: Make Focus Power test, paragraph 2:

The power being used determines what skill or characteristic the test uses. As mentioned above, this test receives a +10 bonus for each point the power’s psy rating is under the psyker’s base psy rating, or a –10 penalty for each point it is over that value.

So again, how you do make the math for a counter-focus power?

Well, then there is no x10 multiplier and you simply add the PR to the test. So if you have PR 7 then you gain +7 to the test.

So... the only benefit for a starting Psyker making a Counter-Focus Power test is the +10 for the Psy Focus and a +2 (+3) max for his PR?

Not a great bonus, but still, better than the non-Psykers =P

So... the only benefit for a starting Psyker making a Counter-Focus Power test is the +10 for the Psy Focus and a +2 (+3) max for his PR?

Not a great bonus, but still, better than the non-Psykers =P

Whether it's better than non-psykers is debatable, I would offer, because it comes with the chance of a Psychic Phenomenon (which, of course, includes the chance of a Perils of the Warp). If you had the choice , would you take +2% considering it comes with a 10% chance of a Psychic Phenomenon (and then a subsequent 25% chance of the Perils Table)? I would suggest that, perhaps if you were facing daemonic possession, you might accept the +2% - but in most cases receiving +2% for a 10% chance of a Psychic Phenomenon(& possible Perils) is dubious.

But on the subject of choice , it's interesting that the psyker gets to choose whether to "push" with this Resistance-opposed-WP-roll, but does not get a choice of whether to add their PR and therefore be subject to a Psychic Phenomenon.

Lastly, I would also point out that there's a notable disconnect in the fluff since this Resisting ability is described as "...psykers have far better mental defences than "normal" people....". I think even +10% would be a little bit of a stretch to describe it as "far better mental defenses" and that would require an extraordinarily powerful PR of 10. +1%-5% is certainly not "far better mental defenses" than normal folk. And your +4% is not going to feel better at all when you roll a doubles and then a 90, sending you to the Perils Table.

I emailed the beta team about this, and Tim Huckleberry agreed that the +PR to the opposed test didn't feel like a meaningful bonus. They are working on some possible alternatives, so hopefully we'll see some changes in the final product.