We ran our 21st session yesterday (first of the new year) and the players fought in a space station engine room that was littered with crates, fuel pods, etc. (ie: lots of cover).

The 2 minion groups were dug in behind cover and the PC's spent the session wildly sprinting from cover to cover - but it was incredibly time consuming.

There was a brief argument at the table about how cover should work - if someone runs to a wall, door, or slides behind a crate, everyone pretty much agreed they should be in cover. Narratively, it doesn't make sense that someone would run up to a door and then have to, what, snuggle up against it to keep from being hit? It also greatly slowed combat if they needed to take 1 maneuver to take out a weapon, take 2 strain to move, then fire, then next turn take cover, then take 2 strain to aim, then fire, or move again, etc.

It basically adds an unnecessary extra maneuver to every character. They want to have it so that if they run to cover or dive behind it, they gain the benefit. Given that the enemies they're fighting would also gain that ability, I don't really have a problem with it. In fact, I pointed out that minions could then move *and* take cover in the same turn now, since they couldn't take the strain to do 2 maneuvers in one round like players, rivals and nemesis can.

My question is - am I missing something? Is this going to muck my game up completely? They were a little sore that 4 out of the 5 PCs fighting were taken out by 2 minion groups with blaster rifles, but I think they were just more annoyed with the cover mechanic: it's not the first time it's come across as clunky.

And in the end, it is just 1 setback die on the attackers that doesn't stack with armor bonuses, so I'm not super concerned about it. Worst case scenario is that the PC's get a little bit more powerful, and I just throw another minion group at them, arm them with blaster rifles again (those things were beasts) or throw a few frag grenades around to spook them out of their cover.

In fact, I pointed out that minions could then move *and* take cover in the same turn now, since they couldn't take the strain to do 2 maneuvers in one round like players, rivals and nemesis can.

?? I don't think that's right. Just because they can't take strain doesn't mean they get a freebie. They have to move, shoot; take cover, shoot;...etc. That's one of the things that makes them minions.

I haven't had a problem with the mechanic so far, though I do have a bit of trouble with cover not stacking with armour.

It sounds like your house rule is how I interpret RAW.

The way I tend to rule it, if the cover object is in Short range, it's 1 maneuver to move there and use it as cover. I don't really see a difference between being "Engaged" with a crate and "Taking Cover" behind it.

In fact, I pointed out that minions could then move *and* take cover in the same turn now, since they couldn't take the strain to do 2 maneuvers in one round like players, rivals and nemesis can.

?? I don't think that's right. Just because they can't take strain doesn't mean they get a freebie. They have to move, shoot; take cover, shoot;...etc. That's one of the things that makes them minions.

I haven't had a problem with the mechanic so far, though I do have a bit of trouble with cover not stacking with armour.

In order to make this house rule more fair, anyone moving to cover can gain its cover. So normally minions could move *or* take cover, they couldn't move somewhere then take cover.

It sounds like your house rule is how I interpret RAW.

The way I tend to rule it, if the cover object is in Short range, it's 1 maneuver to move there and use it as cover. I don't really see a difference between being "Engaged" with a crate and "Taking Cover" behind it.

That's what I mean though, as far as I can tell you're intepreting RAW properly, you're just naming things differently. For our group, we've been playing that going from medium range to short range is 1 maneuver, then getting in to cover is another maneuver. You're doing the same thing, you're just saying the cover maneuver is the same as moving to engaged.

My updated rule would allow people to say, move from medium range to close range behind a crate/wall and gain cover automatically.

Combat is taking a long time, and from our experience it seems like having 'take cover' be a maneuver seems to add an extra round to each layer of combat.

It would change things from this -

1st round: Move 2 range bands and suffer 2 strain, use action to fire outside of cover

2nd round: Take cover and optionally suffer 2 strain to aim, fire from cover

To this -

1st round: Move 2 range bands and slide behind cover, use action to fire from cover

2nd round: Move to more cover or do other actions/fire from cover again

Under this new rules, minions, rivals and nemesis would be able to run to a wall and gain cover automatically just like PC's in order to make things more fair.

Don't forget you can totally spend 2 Threat from a GM's roll to give a player one, free maneuver. Not wholly the answer you're looking for, but it's there.

There's also nothing stopping you from using Threat to reduce the damage and say the shot passed through/ricocheted some part of the "covering" object.

As for minions getting free 2nd maneuvers, I don't agree with that. Minions should be treated like difficult terrain: something to slow the players down and not terribly lethal. There supposed to fall; no need to rush them to cover. Plus, it'll make the players take notice of the one enemy that DOES rush to cover, or not notice the assassin that moves as slowly as the rest of the group.

Are your games that deadly that your players NEED 1 ranged defense? Do they not have enough soak?

Are your games that deadly that your players NEED 1 ranged defense? Do they not have enough soak?

Against some attacks - and some attackers - Soak doesn't do much. Far better in such cases to try to not get hit, and the only way to do that is find a way to reduce the successes of the guy shooting at you to zero.

Don't forget you can totally spend 2 Threat from a GM's roll to give a player one, free maneuver. Not wholly the answer you're looking for, but it's there.

There's also nothing stopping you from using Threat to reduce the damage and say the shot passed through/ricocheted some part of the "covering" object.

As for minions getting free 2nd maneuvers, I don't agree with that. Minions should be treated like difficult terrain: something to slow the players down and not terribly lethal. There supposed to fall; no need to rush them to cover. Plus, it'll make the players take notice of the one enemy that DOES rush to cover, or not notice the assassin that moves as slowly as the rest of the group.

Are your games that deadly that your players NEED 1 ranged defense? Do they not have enough soak?

I didn't *think* that the minions I put together were that tough, just some pirate minions. However, I did start them off in cover and they had blaster rifles. The PC's had already taken some hits from the previous session and were rushing things because there was a bomb on board. I also had some incredible rolls with triumphs that slowed them down - the two melee fighters ended up getting caught out in the open and were taken apart by blaster rifle fire.

They may need a bit more soak - I don't think any of them have updated their armor since they first started playing (so padded armor, I think a soak of 2?)

Edit: if free cover works for you guys, ignore everything I have to say. :-)

My friends and I have a standing rule that random dice rolls can't kill a player unless it's a scene where it makes dramatic sense for a character to fall.

How was the party on Destiny? Maybe next time someone could spend one to "remember" the stim patch they got at the last stop.

Another thing you can do next time is if the minions look like they're winning, have them get a little too confident and split the minion group apart, like group A tells group B to break off and go cover the next room (and if you had a planned encounter in the next room, ignore it since the PCs look like they need the help). Or the minions think they have the win locked and come out of cover.

This may break the two maneuvers a turn rule depending on how many the player has already performed, but 2 Advantage could be spent on cover. Or even better, let one player spend 2+ Advantage from their roll to allow other party members to take cover as he/she lays down suppressive fire (this is a reworking of 2 Adv = 1 Setback, but affecting all enemies instead of just one enemy). Granted this all hinges on your players rolling enough advantages, but bending a rule is better than breaking it.

What did you spend your Triumph on when you rolled against your players?

So taking a maneuver to move, if it happens to be in a position of "cover" doesn't grant you the cover? You have to take n etra maneuver to get the benefits of the cover?? If my character moved behind a stack of crates, or behind a parked vehicle, someone shooting at me from the other side wouldn't get the setback dice unless I actively took a maneuver to take cover behind the wall that you can't see me through?

Page 202, taking cover is listed under the Maneuver Interacting With the Environment .

System-wise, moving close to a box isn't the same as hunkering down near one.

So taking a maneuver to move, if it happens to be in a position of "cover" doesn't grant you the cover? You have to take n etra maneuver to get the benefits of the cover?? If my character moved behind a stack of crates, or behind a parked vehicle, someone shooting at me from the other side wouldn't get the setback dice unless I actively took a maneuver to take cover behind the wall that you can't see me through?

This is correct, and is why my players have been getting frustrated. I also don't see an incredible amount of harm in letting them get a cover bonus if they're right next to cover.

Edit: if free cover works for you guys, ignore everything I have to say. :-)

My friends and I have a standing rule that random dice rolls can't kill a player unless it's a scene where it makes dramatic sense for a character to fall.

How was the party on Destiny? Maybe next time someone could spend one to "remember" the stim patch they got at the last stop.

Another thing you can do next time is if the minions look like they're winning, have them get a little too confident and split the minion group apart, like group A tells group B to break off and go cover the next room (and if you had a planned encounter in the next room, ignore it since the PCs look like they need the help). Or the minions think they have the win locked and come out of cover.

This may break the two maneuvers a turn rule depending on how many the player has already performed, but 2 Advantage could be spent on cover. Or even better, let one player spend 2+ Advantage from their roll to allow other party members to take cover as he/she lays down suppressive fire (this is a reworking of 2 Adv = 1 Setback, but affecting all enemies instead of just one enemy). Granted this all hinges on your players rolling enough advantages, but bending a rule is better than breaking it.

What did you spend your Triumph on when you rolled against your players?

I'm debating trying out this streamlined 'free' cover system for a couple of sessions and see how it goes.

I think part of the reason they got stomped is that this was a continuation of a fight from a previous session, and they didn't really heal up. I think they also forgot to use stimpacks or the equivalent in the battle - I think they're used to rolling over the opposition.

The party had terrible rolls and I had great ones - they only had 1 destiny point out of like 8 to start, which really hurt them. I tried to use mine in a way that wouldn't greatly screw them and give them some more options, but it was tricky.

I spent the triumphs I rolled on environmental effects - for example the two melee players were in a turbolift that had just opened and while the pirates missed, they rolled a triumph - that hit the turbolift cabling and dropped it down 4 feet, making them take an extra maneuver to climb out of the lift before they could move/attack.

I wouldn't have had a party wipe - the players had some backup on its way that were going to burst through the door if they had actually 'lost' the encounter. I think it was more the frustration/time issue with how taking cover slows down each combat round.

I'm debating trying out this streamlined 'free' cover system for a couple of sessions and see how it goes.

I think part of the reason they got stomped is that this was a continuation of a fight from a previous session, and they didn't really heal up. I think they also forgot to use stimpacks or the equivalent in the battle - I think they're used to rolling over the opposition.

The party had terrible rolls and I had great ones - they only had 1 destiny point out of like 8 to start, which really hurt them. I tried to use mine in a way that wouldn't greatly screw them and give them some more options, but it was tricky.

I spent the triumphs I rolled on environmental effects - for example the two melee players were in a turbolift that had just opened and while the pirates missed, they rolled a triumph - that hit the turbolift cabling and dropped it down 4 feet, making them take an extra maneuver to climb out of the lift before they could move/attack.

I wouldn't have had a party wipe - the players had some backup on its way that were going to burst through the door if they had actually 'lost' the encounter. I think it was more the frustration/time issue with how taking cover slows down each combat round.

Have they always complained about cover? This just sounds like a night of bad luck.

My biggest fear with free cover is it's essentially saying you always rngdef 1 because there's always something to hide behind, unless combat is in a hallway or open field, in which case everyone is just aiming and shooting and nothing else is happening except die rolls.

Everything else you did sounds like what I would've done.

They've complained about cover before - maybe I'll just leave it in as a narrative mechanic? As it is, if they get range defense 1 and enemies get range defense 1, it almost cancels itself out (depending on the luck of the roll).

My personal opinion is that I barely used cover anyway with enemies and most of the players then forgot about it - it only really became an issue when I started having enemies use it, and the group found it cumbersome. I don't really care, but if it annoys my players that much (they're a super laid back group, this is the first time in 20+ sessions I've seen them get this worked up) I'm tempted to just go with them on it, it's not a particularly game-breaking mechanic.

You could do away with cover all together and just relegate it to narrative description of setback dice from spending Advantage/Threat.

I'm just going to use that rule as narration fits. I don't really like it, but if someone takes a maneuver to move to a different range band and the cover isn't near that "border", then yea they'll have to spend an extra maneuver to get there. But if their move maneuver takes them behind cover within the same range area, I'm counting that as taking cover. If they narrate that they're moving behind a wall of crates near them, then it only makes sense that they are behind cover. Idk, call it the D&D player in me that gives cover when you're in cover, but it makes sense to me.

D&D characters never had to move close to a monster and then 'engage' it either; they just moved up and attacked. So I could run up and duck behind cove for free because I describe it that way, but I can't I charge at the guy and swing my sword at him without spending two maneuvers? Sounds like I'm getting penalized because I wanted to make a melee character.

Technically, there are no line if sight rules in EotE. Whereas D&D assumes you're constantly moving in your five foot square and everything has a definite distance (y'know, in squares, not exact measurements), EotE assumes you're constantly moving within your range band and things have a relative distance to you .

In D&D, if you didn't receive a cover/positioning bonus, it's because you forgot the rule. If two people are equidistant to covering terrain, moving one square closer to it denies your target a cover bonus.

In EotE, cover only matters because you draw attention to it and make it matter; it's now part of the story. You can spend a maneuver to use a speederbike as cover even though you're not right up and hugging the thing just because you're keeping it between you and your target and you get to keep the cover bonus until it doesn't make sense anymore, like the bike blows up or one of you moves close enough to the other that the bike isn't between you two.

Again, I'm not telling anyone how to enjoy their game, I'm just trying to bring things to light that people might not be considering.

Hell, looking at the dice it might not even matter that much: assuming your dice pool is 3 yellows, 2 purples, and a black die, you're looking at 21 faces with a success on them versus 8 faces with a failure.

Engaging in melee is also a maneuver? ****