Defensive Tactics

By Elior, in Dark Heresy Second Edition Beta

I've mentioned this in a few other threads but it might need a topic of its own. If FFG and others want to move away from opposed dodge, then perhaps we are looking at the wrong issue.

Perhaps the issue is with a lack of defensive maneuvers, existing defensive maneuvers not being good enough or a lack of protection from cover.

If this can be addressed then I would advocate for limits to dodge and instead enable players to be more tactical in their approach to PC defense.

Just throwing out some suggestions:

  1. The to-hit modifier for a ranged attack is the same modifier for a Dodge test
  2. The Fast Weapon Quality imposed a penalty to Parry and Dodge
  3. Low-velocity weapons (such as Thrown) are easier to Dodge
  4. Simply having a score of X in Perception provided a bonus to Dodge (+5 or +10, like weapon Craftsmanship)
  5. Diving Prone provided a bonus to Dodge (+10)- useful for avoiding attacks at range, and you can still return fire from a Prone position
  6. Simply having a score of X in Agility provided a bonus to Dodge (+10 or +15, like the Balanced and Defensive Qualities)
  7. Obscured LoS from firer to target, such as by nearby Cover (within AgB meters, like Tactical Advance, only now TA also provides a +10 bonus to Dodge)

Just off the top of my head.

Edited by Brother Orpheo

Maybe also having the High Ground gives +5 to Dodge.

I think before we get anywhere it might be useful to pull apart Evasion/Defense for Melee and Ranged. Dodging blows in Melee makes sense with a lot of the mods Brother Orpheo mentioned. Not so for ranged. Additionally, it would make sense that a Guardsman might be better at avoiding ranged attacks, while a Death Cult Assassin would be hard to hit in melee. At any rate, most of the current defensive mechanics against shooting make very little sense.

I agree totally that it would be the correct way to give additional defensive maneuvres and/or evasive modifiers instead of making evading binary again.

Currently, the best "tactic" for defense is to increase dodge and agility to get a 70%+ dodge.

Add Step Aside and you are fine.

...it would make sense that a Guardsman might be better at avoiding ranged attacks, while a Death Cult Assassin would be hard to hit in melee. At any rate, most of the current defensive mechanics against shooting make very little sense.

These are valid observations. And I think they would be better served through Aptitudes and Talents. However, I am currently very unsatisfied with the Aptitude assignments, and think they need a complete overhaul, which isn't likely to happen considering the time constraints.

As it stand right now, there is nothing about the Aptitude system that is intuitive- even veteran players are going to have to do some cross-referencing to know if they're getting the best ("best" being a relative term) Skill or Talent for their XP. But this is a completely different issue. Or is it?

There is a bit of disconnect between the core combat mechanics and the character advancement mechanics, yes? Again, not something that is likely to be addressed. I get the impression of games developers fixing things in hopscotch fashion---first hopping to this, turning quickly and hopping to that, like they're trying to put out multiple small grass fires instead of one burning waste bin.

So we have some work to do. I propose the following frame, and if anyone thinks this frame should be altered, added to, or trimmed, please pip in.

  1. We remove the distinction that Dodge and Parry are Skills. From now on, they are simply evasion types that are measured by the PC's associated Characteristics. It is up to the player to decide how competent at one or both the PC is through the expenditure of XP on these Characteristics, to the possible and probable detriment of other Characteristics.
  2. We separate Dodge and Parry; Dodge is a range-exclusive evasion based on Ag, Parry is melee-exclusive based on WS (as it was in Beta1). There are no backward compatibility issues with this proposal, other than existing PCs being optimized without consideration of this proposal- GMs can and should allow players to adjust their PC accordingly.
  3. We compile exhaustive separate lists of current RAW to-hit modifiers for both melee and ranged attacks, everything from Standard/Swift/Lightning, situational and environmental, Craftsmanship, and weapon Special Qualities...everything.
  4. We compare those lists and, if needed, we alter those lists to include a like number of + and - modifiers.

These are my suggestions, re-posted for ease of reference:

  • The to-hit modifier for a ranged attack is the same modifier for a Dodge test
  • The Fast Weapon Quality imposes a penalty to Parry and Dodge
  • Low-velocity weapons (such as Thrown) are easier to Dodge
  • Simply having a score of X in Perception provided a bonus to Dodge (+5 or +10, like weapon Craftsmanship)
  • Diving Prone provides a bonus to Dodge (+10)- useful for avoiding attacks at range, and you can still return fire from a Prone position
  • Simply having a score of X in Agility provides a bonus to Dodge (+10 or +15, like the Balanced and Defensive Qualities)
  • Obscured LoS from firer to target, such as by nearby Cover (within AgB meters, like Tactical Advance, only now TA also provides a +10 bonus to Dodge)
  • The Guardsman's ability to add +1 DoS to nearby allies could be treated as a version of Ganging Up, imposing a -10 to DoDge Tests for each attacker after the Guardsman that benefits fom the ability
Edited by Brother Orpheo

+1 vote to remove Dodge and Parry as purchasable skills. Many of the balancing problems surrounding evasion are caused by combat-focused characters who stack up their evasion chance to nigh-invulnerable levels. I think simply using WS/Ag tests to avoid melee/ranged attacks definitely warrants some testing and could be a very elegant solution.

As for your proposed list of evasion modifiers, I find most of them to be reasonable suggestions, but I'm not a fan of range-based Dodge modifiers and flat bonuses based on your Ag score. Making the to-hit modifier for ranged attacks also applicable to Dodge tests is an intriguing concept, but I'm not sure if it will work properly in practice -- the interaction with Full-Auto weapons is particularly awkward, since the bonuses effectively cancel each other. I definitely do not like the idea of awarding bonuses to Dodge based on your Agility score. This seems like it will simply bring back unhittable assassin syndrome in a different form, since players who stack Agility will receive extra Dodge bonuses on top of their already high Agility score.

This definitely warrants some further testing. The list of proposed changes is quite long and may not make it into the core rules, but I will try some of them out with my group as house rules.

I agree that if one insists on a binary dodge it should only be a straight agility or weapon skill test as apropriate. As long as it's a skill it should (And will be in my game), An opposed roll.