I had a some trouble with this one because they're a bit more complex than your typical EotE species, but overall I'm happy with how they turned out. Plenty of setbacks to offset their many advantages... any advice/comments?

Zeltron

Brawn 1, Agility 2, Intellect 2, Cunning 2, Willpower 1, Presence 3

Wound Threshold: 10 + Brawn

Strain Threshold: 8 + Willpower

Starting Experience: 90 xp

Free rank in Charm (cannot train above rank 2 at character creation)

Overly Gregarious: Due to their friendly, outgoing natures and limited telepathy, living beings within short range may upgrade the ability of Charm checks made against Zeltrons once.

Empathic Link: A Zeltron can determine the emotional state of a living being within short range once per round as an incidental. Alternatively, he may project his own emotional state onto a living being. In either case, the target suffers one Setback die on all Coercion and Deception checks made against him until the end of his next turn.

Zeltron Pheromones: Because of their potent natural pheromones, Zeltrons add a Boost die on all Charm, Coercion, Deception, and Negotiation checks. This ability only functions in relation to living beings within short range.

Any reason you didn't give them another 3? You've got both Willpower and Brawn at 1. Also, they're already covered in the USM in a little less complex a manner.

As sonovabith noted, we already covered the Zeltrons in the USM, and did so in a much less convoluted method that also didn't hose them over in some of the ways your attempt did.

I would leave their Brawn at 2 myself. They don't seem any less brawny than humans.

This write-up is too weak especially with 90 XP. Two stats at 1 and auto-upgrades for defending against most social skill checks do not balance the boni you've given.

The USM version of Zeltrons doesn't quite strike me as right at all. For one thing having their empathic abilities add a Setback die to Charm checks makes little sense considering how gregarious and easily flattered they are. And for another, the USM version of their pheromone abilities is pretty weak all things considered.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I gave them two low characteristics and added Overly Gregarious to balance out the fact that they get a Boost die on almost every social skill in the game. Perhaps I should add Leadership and Streetwise to the list? It would certainly make sens (particularly Streetwise since Negotition is already on the list). Or perhaps I could have said skills become upgraded once instead of adding a Boost die? Or perhaps just 100 xp...?

I think I preferred the version 2 Zeltron from USM. Appropriate strengths to justify the 90 XP. Not a fan of swapping a Boost to all rolls for generating 1 Advantage for free.

I think I preferred the version 2 Zeltron from USM. Appropriate strengths to justify the 90 XP. Not a fan of swapping a Boost to all rolls for generating 1 Advantage for free.

Fair enough. Is it because you think Boost die are better or worse than 1 free Advantage...?

In any event, I'd definitely like to change the USM version of Empathy at the very least. Zeltrons are easier to charm than other species, not harder, and they can pinpoint the emotions of living beings with as much if not greater accuracy as a Force-user.

I'm glad that people think my version of the Zeltron is underpowered as opposed to overpowered. A player of mine wants to run a game, I haven't PLAYED a tabletop game in years (I'm always the GM), and Zeltrons are perhaps my favorite species in Star Wars. I'd very much like to fine-tune them to the point that they accurately reflect the comics/novels/etc.

Keep the Charm rank.

Empathy: Upgrade the dice pool of any Influence check once if the target is within short range and is susceptible to having their emotions read.

Pheromones: As per the USM. Add an advantage to the result of any Charm, Deception, or Negotiation check if the target is within short range and is susceptible to the pheromones.

Keep the Charm rank.

Empathy: Upgrade the dice pool of any Influence check once if the target is within short range and is susceptible to having their emotions read.

Pheromones: As per the USM. Add an advantage to the result of any Charm, Deception, or Negotiation check if the target is within short range and is susceptible to the pheromones.

That's potent as hell... but given the all the disadvantages I suppose it's warranted. Thanks!

I think I preferred the version 2 Zeltron from USM. Appropriate strengths to justify the 90 XP. Not a fan of swapping a Boost to all rolls for generating 1 Advantage for free.

Fair enough. Is it because you think Boost die are better or worse than 1 free Advantage...?

I consider a Boost die much better than 1 free Advantage.

Updated stats;

Zeltron Species Abilitie s

Brawn 1, Agility 2, Intellect 2, Cunning 2, Willpower 1, Presence 3

Wound Threshold: 10 + Brawn

Strain Threshold: 8 + Willpower

Starting Experience: 90 xp
Overly Gregarious: Charm checks made against Zeltrons by living beings within short range have their ability upgrade once.
Empathy: Zeltrons can determine the emotional state of a living being within short range once per round as an incidental. Until the end of the Zeltron’s next turn, he upgrades all Charm, Deception, and Negotiation/Streetwise checks he makes in regards to this target once.
Pheromones: Due to their potent natural pheromones, Zeltrons gain one free Advantage result with all Charm, Deception, and Negotiation/Streetwise checks made in regards to living beings within short range.

I don't agree with 2 stats at 1. No race does that as a default, except droids (which have better reasons for it).

I don't agree with 2 stats at 1. No race does that as a default, except droids (which have better reasons for it).

They're so heavily geared toward social interaction that I'm not worried about it; I'm far more concerned with getting it right story-wise. That said, Zeltrons are suppose to be "physically fit". This of course could be interpreted as being physically attractive the same way it's done for Twi'leks... but what do you think about raising their Brawn back up to 2 but lowering their WT to 8 + Brawn? That would certainly be indicitive of a physically fit race with tall, skinny frames indicitive of the rapid metabolisms such heonistic people would need.

2 stats at 1 means you should be giving more starting XP, especially with those benefits being quite situational and very range-dependent.

Brawn 2 and WT 8+ doesn't make sense to me.

2 stats at 1 means you should be giving more starting XP, especially with those benefits being quite situational and very range-dependent.

Brawn 2 and WT 8+ doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either, but considering in previous editions Zeltrons got a penalty to Constitution I figured I'd toss the iea out there.

In any case, 2 stats at 1 doesn't necessarily mean giving more starting XP. As it stands, they get three different skills that can each be easily upgraded and which gain a free Advantage with every roll. That's a whole lot better than what any other species gets, which in my mind justifies both two low stats and a negative ability (Overly Gregarious).

I don't think looking at previous edition stat choices are that useful, compared to the fluff.

Doing a species valuation of a few canon species for comparison.

Human: 110 spendable XP + 20 (2 out of career skills at 1) = effective 130 XP at chargen

Rodian: 100 spendable XP + 30 (Agility 2 to 3) - 20 (cost of raising Willpower 1 to baseline of 2) + 10 (1 possible out of career skill at 1) + 5 (Rank 1 Talent) = effective 125 XP. Same cost with Bothan.

Twi'lek: 100 spendable XP + 30 (Presence 2 to 3) - 20 (cost of raising Brawn 1 to baseline of 2) + 10 (Skill to 1) + 5 (situational Setback removal, equivalent to a Rank 1 Talent).

Trandoshan: 90 spendable XP + 30 (Brawn 2 to 3) - 20 (cost of raising Agility 1 to baseline of 2) + 10 (Perception 1) + roughly 10 (worth 1 success and 1 advantage added to unarmed Brawl for the modifier to the base weapon) = effective 120 XP. Roughly the same cost for Wookiee considering the damage bonuses require taking injury. And they both have higher starting WT.

Notably, it's hard to value species abilities that go beyond the usual free skill or talent (usually 10 XP for a skill and 5 for a Tier 1 Talent).

Back and forth upgrades are therefore hard to value, though given the cost of Nobody's Fool, freely upgrading incoming checks automatically (without Strain cost) is worth 15-20 XP to me. I'd say a free advantage is worth 5.

Your Zeltron: 90 spendable XP + 30 (Presence 3) - 40 (cost to raise Brawn and Willpower to the norm of 2) + 15 (situational Nobody's Fool) - 15 (constant difficulty upgrade) + 5 (best guess at pricing a free Advantage, since a success and an advantage together are worth about 10) = effective 85 xp at chargen.

USM Zeltron: 90 spendable + 30 (Presence 3) - 20 (cost to raise Willpower 1 to 2) + 10 (free skill) + 5 (free Setback to incoming social checks - rated at 5 because a Rank 1 Talent would negate) + 5 (free Advantage) = 120 effective XP.

Not taking into account that no canon species (even with Brawn 1) has a lower starting WT than 10+ and no current USM species is lower than 9+. The lowest was the defunct USM Toydarian with 8+. That is an additional effective XP penalty.

Keep in mind it's a free Advantage for 4 different skills, which by your forumla should be another 15 points, plus another 5 since Empathy works for 4 different skills as well. You also missed the +1 skill rank for charm which is another +10, putting my Zeltron at around 115. Considering they have Presence 3, Charm 1, and ability to easily upgrade Charm, Deception and Negotiation/Streetwise whilst generating a free advantage with all of those skills, I don't mind their overall "cost" being lower. They hav a ton of synergy, which is the whole concern with designing them.

I'd drop the rank in Charm as the upgrade pretty much amounts to that anyways and bump their Brawn back to 2.

The Zeltron stats you've got are too focused on being social experts. And the person on the d20 Radio boards thought the USM had overdone it making Zeltrons to focused in that regard.

As far as the setback die from the USM version, that's for when other people are making social skill checks that target the Zeltron PC. So if you're reading it as "applies to the Zeltron's Charm or Deception skill checks that they make," then you're reading it wrong. In fact, the text actually says incoming Charm or Deception checks, much like the Intimidating talent can be used against incoming Intimidation checks.

Again, there's nothing in the EU to really suggest that Zeltrons are physically frail to the point of having a Brawn of 1, particularly without another Characteristic at a 3 to balance it out. Same with Strain Threshold; Zeltron's are a bit flighty (Willpower 1 covers that), but they aren't that much quicker to fold under mental pressure than other species.

As for Empathy, a free upgrade is too good of a perk. You'd be better off with a boost die, but even that's getting to be overkill when used in conjunction with Pheromones.

The Overly Gregarious quality I'd just drop outright, as none of the official species includes an ability that negatively impacts the PC. Closest is the Gand, and it's a choice between "get some extra XP at the cost of needing a respirator at all times or use the default XP and be immune to most atmospheric hazards."

I can't see anyone actually wanting to play your version of the Zeltron. Of course, if that's your goal, to make a species write-up so awful that nobody in their right mind would want to play that species, then you've succeeded.

I can't see anyone actually wanting to play your version of the Zeltron. Of course, if that's your goal, to make a species write-up so awful that nobody in their right mind would want to play that species, then you've succeeded.

Bit harsh, Donovan? Don't think JH really deserved that, he's only throwing out ideas. And he's always polite.

I actually like the new version in the Menagerie, but I really disliked the initial one where the pheremones did strain damage. So there's always room for improvement, I think.

When it comes to races i think less is more. And rolling pheromones empathy into talents and stats.

Zeltron Species Abilitie s

Brawn 2, Agility 2, Intellect 2, Cunning 2, Willpower 1, Presence 3

Wound Threshold: 10 + Brawn

Strain Threshold: 10 + Willpower

Starting Experience: 100 xp

Zeltron start with one rank in charm, can not exceed 2 char gen , and one level of Kill with Kindness or nobodies fool

My only issue with Talents is that there is potential for use over comms and distance whereas Zeltron's abilities tend to focus on nearby targets. It is why I think their abilities should be restricted to close by them.

As an alternative I could see this:

Empathy: Zeltrons upgrade the difficulty of any Influence check made against them by one step if the target is within short distance and can be affected by the ability.

Here's the thing: Zeltrons are actually easier to influence with Charm than other species, due in large part to their natural empathy and hedonistic lifestyle. Empathy might make it harder to lie to or even negotiate with them, but when it comes to Charm not so muc.; They're all about love and good vibes, so when you pay one a genuine compliment it reasonates with them pretty deeply. Influencing a Zeltron is as hard as saying, "Hey, wanna go party?"

^ This is the entire reason I am not satisfied with the USM version of the race. Yes, I did in fact read it, and yes I did in fact understand it. I just don't think it hit the mark.

My goal here isn't create Zeltron species traits that "everybody wants to play" or that "nobody wants to play", my goal is to create Zeltron species traits that properly reflect canon so I can play one and enjoy it . I don't feel the USM stats are 100% in that regard, so I'd like to change them. Those stats aren't official, so I have even less of a reason than usual to feel attached to them... no offense intended to Donovan Morningfire, who did a really good job with the USM. I can do nothing but thank him for that, even if I perceive a mistake or two here and there.

Zeltrons are a serious design challenge due to their natural synergy. Simply put, a species with Betazoid-like empathy and Spider Woman-like pheromones is going to be incredibly adept at influencing people. Hence why my version suggests two low stats and a non-beneficial special ability (Overly Gregarious).

My original version of Empathy is as follows;

Empathic Link: A Zeltron can determine the emotional state of a living being within short range once per round as an incidental. Alternatively, he may project his own emotional state onto a living being. In either case, the target suffers one Setback die on all Coercion and Deception checks against him.

^ This gives them something fluffy to play with -- the abillity to unerringly sense emotions or project their own -- while offering a simple "defense 1"against two social skills. It's definitely not as big and bad as upgraded Charm/Deception/Negotiation.

Do you allow Charm to work on a player? Coercion, Deception, Negotiation all have tangible results. Being gregarious and susceptible to Charm sounds more like role-playing to me.