I prefer Master of Lore than Grima.

I would include them both in the same deck! This is a really great card combo for a sphere that lacks resource generation.

Also, am I the only one who is sad that Elfhelm's ability will not be able to offset Doomed player cards?

GrandSpleen, I think that allowing Elfhelm to counter Grima's effect would be too powerful. Especially because spirit has so many ways to get allies back into play.

Now that I think about it.... the wording on Elfhelm's card is very specific in that it does not pertain to player card effects. This makes me wonder if the design team had been considering doomed player cards for a long time prior to the Voice of Isengard, as far back as the mirkwood cycle. Curious, I'd like to hear something from Caleb or Matt about this.

I prefer Master of Lore than Grima. The only diference is to pay 3 resources instead increase 3 threat level, and with Master of Lore you loss 1 card from hand (himselve) instead hability of other hero.

Grima's option is good after 3 rounds: in 3 rounds Master of Lore recover his resources but also you raise 3 threat level points (3 rounds, of course)..., so Grima is better, but anyway: 3 resources is better than the other 1 hero's hability?

Main difference is, that you have Gríma since the beggining of the game. Having Master of Lore in your opening hand is not clear fact.

Best solution: include both and play master of lore for 2 with Grímas ability

Its a shame they didn't think about Grima's ability before cards like 'Thicket of Spears'. It would be cool if another benefit was you could play cards that are usually only usable in a mono-color deck, now in dual color. Would have made for more interesting combos.

Now that I think about it.... the wording on Elfhelm's card is very specific in that it does not pertain to player card effects. This makes me wonder if the design team had been considering doomed player cards for a long time prior to the Voice of Isengard, as far back as the mirkwood cycle. Curious, I'd like to hear something from Caleb or Matt about this.

I think that even before the doomed mechanic, Elfhelm ability could have been abused with cards like Song of Earendil and Wandering Took.

I prefer Master of Lore than Grima. The only diference is to pay 3 resources instead increase 3 threat level, and with Master of Lore you loss 1 card from hand (himselve) instead hability of other hero.

Grima's option is good after 3 rounds: in 3 rounds Master of Lore recover his resources but also you raise 3 threat level points (3 rounds, of course)..., so Grima is better, but anyway: 3 resources is better than the other 1 hero's hability?

Main difference is, that you have Gríma since the beggining of the game. Having Master of Lore in your opening hand is not clear fact.

Best solution: include both and play master of lore for 2 with Grímas ability

There is also the fact that with Grima, you can trigger the doomed keyword almost once a turn almost at will. I believe that Grima's ability has the potential to have a high level of synergy with other cards from this cycle (like it has been highlighted by the designers), while Master of Lore's benefit is more straightforward.

Now that I think about it.... the wording on Elfhelm's card is very specific in that it does not pertain to player card effects. This makes me wonder if the design team had been considering doomed player cards for a long time prior to the Voice of Isengard, as far back as the mirkwood cycle. Curious, I'd like to hear something from Caleb or Matt about this.

this seems doubtful, to me. seeing as how there have been 3 lead designers now (nate, lucas, caleb) and mirkwood was designed long before caleb was on board.

what's more likely is that the designer of Elfhelm was just very careful to be specific, as many card game designers are, to allow as much open, future design space as possible.

Voice of Isenguard is the first deluxe box and cycle that Caleb has been with from start to finish - even though he's done the saga boxes. these sets are in development loooong before they ever come out.

either way, the doomed mechanic should certainly prove interesting!

On that note, it seemed clear to me that Elfhelm's wording had Frodo in mind, from just a couple packs earlier.

I'm personally ok with the idea of Grima as a hero since I don't care too much if there is some inconsistencies between the game and the LOTR lore. In the end, it remains a card game. I do understand though the people that find the idea a little bit too far stretched.

One thing I would have like however, is to see an artwork that would have represented a younger Grima with a more heroic stature. I find that he really looks like the villain he is meant to become on the current artwork of the card. But in the end, it is not a big deal. Like I said, I will still play him, even though his ability will require a little bit more coordination with the other players I play with than I'm used too.

This is exactly how I feel. Specially about the art part.

I willalso add here that he is a great addition to the lore sphere in single player. No doubts there.

The true challange however for me as a multi-player guy is getting my mates to say when I put down my heroes:

"You're playing Grima? Yay!"

That's going to be difficult. Song of earendil might be able to help out here.

I willalso add here that he is a great addition to the lore sphere in single player. No doubts there.

The true challange however for me as a multi-player guy is getting my mates to say when I put down my heroes:

"You're playing Grima? Yay!"

That's going to be difficult. Song of earendil might be able to help out here.

This is exactly why I'm not overly excited about this hero. Unless my friends willingly build their deck around the doomed keyword, I bet they won't be very happy to see Grima as one of my hero. I don't want to impose them to build their deck around Grima either...from the games I've played multiplayer (3 players), I find it always less fun and rewarding when your deck is built around the hero of another player.

Song of Earendil sure helps, but then it would be a 3 threat increase each time I would use Grima's ability. In the end, I think I will use Grima's ability in multiplayer games only in last resort, to play cards in emergency situation, that I wouldn't have been able to play because of lack of resources. Not bad after all, but not that much exciting hehe. For solo play however, this is an awesome hero, I agree.

This is exactly how I feel. Specially about the art part.

I willalso add here that he is a great addition to the lore sphere in single player. No doubts there.

The true challange however for me as a multi-player guy is getting my mates to say when I put down my heroes:

"You're playing Grima? Yay!"

That's going to be difficult. Song of earendil might be able to help out here.

For me, this situation is akin to a Leadership player that is selfish and does not know how to share their wealth of resources. People get pissed at that guy. If they have the privilege of playing Steward of Gondor they had better do their part to help me get my tactics cards into play! That way they don't lose their heroes in the first round of combat

The same goes for Grima. I certainly hope a Lore player does not abuse this card's ability and use it only for their own benefit (however thematic that may sound). A good Lore player, using Grima, would use it to play radagast's cunning, to nullify a 6 threat enemy in the staging area. Sure everyone's threat just went up by 1 , but it was about to go up by more if the team had quested unsuccessfully.

Basically, the challenge will be to put cards in your deck that offer more global benefit to the team than detriment and then try your best to limit Grima's use to those cards.

For me, this situation is akin to a Leadership player that is selfish and does not know how to share their wealth of resources. People get pissed at that guy. If they have the privilege of playing Steward of Gondor they had better do their part to help me get my tactics cards into play! That way they don't lose their heroes in the first round of combat

The same goes for Grima. I certainly hope a Lore player does not abuse this card's ability and use it only for their own benefit (however thematic that may sound). A good Lore player, using Grima, would use it to play radagast's cunning, to nullify a 6 threat enemy in the staging area. Sure everyone's threat just went up by 1 , but it was about to go up by more if the team had quested unsuccessfully.

Basically, the challenge will be to put cards in your deck that offer more global benefit to the team than detriment and then try your best to limit Grima's use to those cards.

I like your thinking!

The example you give is rather like the one in the preview where Grima was spoiled, but as you put it, it did change my reasoning on using him in a multiplayer game. In a pinch, you can play any sphere's 1 cost event, even when you're totally out of resources. Test of will comes to mind first of course. Every player "paying" 1 threat is no cost compared to the effects of a devastating treachery. Then with Keys of Orthanc on him you can even nick a resource in the process

I'm warming up to Grima here!

I like your thinking!

The example you give is rather like the one in the preview where Grima was spoiled, but as you put it, it did change my reasoning on using him in a multiplayer game. In a pinch, you can play any sphere's 1 cost event, even when you're totally out of resources. Test of will comes to mind first of course. Every player "paying" 1 threat is no cost compared to the effects of a devastating treachery. Then with Keys of Orthanc on him you can even nick a resource in the process

I'm warming up to Grima here!

The interesting thing about using Grima for playing Response cards is that you have to activate his ability before the encounter cards are revealed, otherwise you won't have the opportunity to activate his action before you play the response card.

The interesting thing about using Grima for playing Response cards is that you have to activate his ability before the encounter cards are revealed, otherwise you won't have the opportunity to activate his action before you play the response card.

That could a team in a very interesting position.

"Hey guys, I have a Test of Will in my hand, but I'm out of spirit resources. Should I use Grima's action just in case we need to cancel that one really bad treachery?"

How often would you raise your threat to do this with a there being a good chance that you won't actually play a card?

Well you could trigger his ability and NOT end up playing any cards. You wouldn't suffer any threat raise because the Doomed X won't trigger until you play the card.

That could a team in a very interesting position.

"Hey guys, I have a Test of Will in my hand, but I'm out of spirit resources. Should I use Grima's action just in case we need to cancel that one really bad treachery?"

How often would you raise your threat to do this with a there being a good chance that you won't actually play a card?

Well, one reason why I think the table talk rules are kind of silly is because you can rephrase the question as:

"Hey guys, I'm able to cancel a treachery, but I'm out of spirit resources. Should I use Grima's action just in case we need to cancel that one really bad treachery?"

and be within the rules. Might as well just say A Test of Will.

Oh I completely agree.

Well you could trigger his ability and NOT end up playing any cards. You wouldn't suffer any threat raise because the Doomed X won't trigger until you play the card.

Absolutely. His ability adds the Doomed keyword to the card you're going to play, so it only happens if you play the card.

Here's a little food for thought: You are out of spirit resources and prime Grima's ability before staging just in case you need to play A Test of Will. You end up not needing to use A Test of Will and then you get through combat and are able to use Foe-Hammer. Oops, Grima's ability just raised your threat without giving you any benefit because the next card already costed 0. I don't see it happening much if at all, but it's interesting thinking about it.

I was also realizing that Grima can be used in tri-sphere decks "easily" because his ability essentially gives you 1 resource of any type if you're able to soak up the threat.

Oops, Grima's ability just raised your threat without giving you any benefit because the next card already costed 0. I don't see it happening much if at all, but it's interesting thinking about it.

Brilliant!

The look on the other players' faces would be worth it!

It reminds me of something Brandon (from CotR) would do: use the ability, and then always play a zero cost card immediately after.

We have not seen any spirit card- my favourite sphere

I have tiny hope, they are building Ent faction in spirit

What do you think?

I see Ents more in Lore.

Agree. Ents are (at least initially) too reluctant to be Spirit. I really wonder what Spirit cards we'll be seeing in VoI, but I wouldn't get my hopes too high. Probably Rohan allies, or elven allies like the one shown in the VoI minisite.

I see ents in lore. Ents make fear, not willpower, they are unknown..., secrecy knowledge. So better lore.

hah! yeah "The Table Talk Rule" is a joke