I just recently bought the Dark Vengeance starter set for 40k as well as a bunch of paints. Having read through the rules for 40k I have absolutely no desire to play the game, far too much book keeping and fairly daunting to try to learn all the keywords various units use and such things before I even think about balance and cost and such. I picked it up mostly to get into model painting as anew hobby. Custom X-Wing stuff will come, but I figured I could teach myself on unpainted models instead of ruining the already beautiful X-Wing models. :-)

To be fair, while certain units certainly do become "obsolete" in warhammer in tournament settings, the same thing exists with x-wing, no? I mean... How many tournament squads feature shuttles or hwks? That's something like 20% of the total ships right there. And I would bet that 50% of the upgrades and pilot talents at least never get any real play in tournaments, no? So really, that is something the two games, and indeed ANY game that involves competitive play, will feature; players who want to win and maximize their potential to do so.

I think it is close to impossible to reasonably compare the two games... They are just so hugely different, you know?

Shuttles do appear in tournaments, so do HWKs. I think at least 5 squads contained them at the last tournament I went to (there were more HWKs than YTs). But there is a bit of a difference here. Both the HWK and the Shuttle are support ships, playing at larger scales they are fairly great. And with Epic and Cinematic play coming both will get use.

....No comment about the "expose" skill?

But yeah. I like X-wing. For much the same way I like Space Hulk - which I still maintain to be about the best game GW has produced. The two sides play differently, but are balanced. The rules are simple. You win the game by playing the game, not by writing your list.

X-Wings and Ties are like that, and I genuinely believe that 'X' points of Black Squadron or Red Squadron pilots sans upgrades will have a decent go at any squad out there. They might not win , but there's no 'auto-lose' situations the way there can be with 40k where you will regularly face models you literally cannot hurt with significant parts o your army. There are lists where you're not using every ability to the last of its potential, but if you come up with a cool idea you'll do okay.

A 'normal' TIE squadron - Obsidian 1-7 fits right into 100 points

Vader and the 4 black squadron guys you see on screen?

Vader's shuttle and two royal guard escorts?

You name it, you can fly it, but rarely is something unbeatable

As ever, it's when you add in new factions and new options that it becomes difficult to keep track of every dirty combination the interwebz can come up with. And at some point, GW (specifically one author I shall not name) has gone "screw it" and just rolled with it in the hopes of selling more stuff...

40K is a mess, no doubt, but it is largely a mess because the game has more units and factors and variables than any game designer could humanly cope with.

Sorry but that's simply untrue. They could do something to balance it, it's not by any means beyond human ability to bring some balance into 40k. They'll never achieve perfect balance, because perfection isn't possible. But they could make it more balanced then it currently is...

But they won't because it suits their profit margin to not do so, codex creep is not a new term, and it's been well known for years now that the whole point is to increase sales by making each new codex more powerful then the last.

40k had ok balance in 3rd ed. So nothing is imposible.

40k had ok balance in 3rd ed. So nothing is imposible.

Not any of the editions were balanced.

The blood angle rhino rush was so OP it was not even funny and don't get me started on the second edition either that was straight up nuts for competitive play. It just comes down to good communication with your opponent and then warhammer is a fantastic game.

It just comes down to good communication with your opponent and then warhammer is a fantastic game.

Having to ask the other guy to nerf his list because it's too OP, does not make for a fantastic game, it makes for a very, very broken one.

It all went down hill after Rogue Trader.

It just comes down to good communication with your opponent and then warhammer is a fantastic game.

Having to ask the other guy to nerf his list because it's too OP, does not make for a fantastic game, it makes for a very, very broken one.

I disagree, in the end you should both have fun.

When both armies are evenly matched the game turns to a game of player skill (and dice). I never had a problem with this, you just need to know what you are getting yourself into. Warhammer tournaments at high level are balanced, but you see a lot of the same lists. Now how varied are the lists in tournament level in x-wing... you have swarm, 3 rebel ship, 4, rebel ship, han, 2 YT, 2 fire spray and one or two oddballs . Not that much. Half of the ships did not even make top 8 and only a couple of characters were used.

If you ask me x-wing does seem very broken at high en play when so many ships are not really viable. It seems most people had a lot of fun there, and in casual play someone who is good with a tie swarm will crush anyone not bringing an optimized list, but apparently casual people are having fun.

How are you having fun in x-wing?

Edit: But each to his own I guess, to bad you are not having fun playing Warhammer... but simply blaming it on the rules of the game seems such a waste for all the nice miniatures.

The perfect balance is hard to find. I don't think any game really nails it. X wing is a very fun game, but yes some builds aren't all that viable, others have terrible hard counters. At its core the game is mostly good with balance and fun.

40k is a different beast and has grown quite large, so has it's problems. Too vast and varied for anyone to truly care of here I'm sure.

I play both games, as well as Infinity and Attack wing and have fun with all of them despite any balance or game play issues, when I play I remember why I still have armies in 40k, or ships in X wing or Attack wing, etc.

I will say this game is much cheaper then 40k. Model to model, its more expensive, the amount you need to spend to field a good sized list and be top tier, hands down this is cheaper even accounting for buying boxes just for upgrades.

When I buy warhammer I get sticker shock, when I buy this, I get most times reverse sticker shock, thinking I'm being charged too little.

Lets say a new wave drops, and you want to go buck wild when it lands. Your spending what, $120 ? That's assuming all small ships and two of each as it drops, with no discount and before tax. That's more then likely a good number of points, your buying for both sides and with two of each you may not need anymore of either and that happens once a year. With the burst in between, like imperial aces for instance. That's very cheap as a yearly keep up cost.

One RipTide, for your 40kers out there is what ? 100 there abouts ? For one model, the new Tyranid Monsters, 80 for 1 right out the gate ? You still need a whole army aside from that, and just like X wing they release new things, new editions, new books that all cost.

One is most assuredly cheaper, but both are still very fun, at least to me.

i think debating over rules between these games is nonsense.

xwing is a fast pace fun game, warhammer is slugish and you dont know if you will have fun or not.

my reason for being a step or 2 from walking out on GW for good is due to their business end of things.

they have stopped being a gamers company and have become money grubbing loonatics!!

i just laid down $70 for a main rule book. just a dang rule book. then thankfully i play orks and havnt had to by a $50 codex yet. or by the way things look this 4th edition codex is what im going to have to play in 7th edition, which if you check the forums, BOLS, and Feit 212, rumor is its coming just a year after 6th released. so now i will need to buy another $70 main rule book just to play the game. and i still havnt got a new codex for my army.

if GW was about the game and making their fan base happy, they would get the entire edition ready to release all at the same time so there was no CODEX HAMMER going on.

but they are a company first and they want to make the most money from each codex drop they can.this would help with alot of the balance issues as you would have every player playing off the same edition codex.

i have said in previous posts ive played 40k since rogue trader days, and to be honest, they were much more enjoyable games. we each had between 15 - 30 miniatures, maybe a vehicle or 2, which most of the time was a model we built ourselves because the rules back then allowed you to design each and every vehicle in any shape or size you wanted. it was really cool, it played more like an RPG where you had 1 model that was you on the feild and they even had rules for experience points to advance your characters. and best of all, the rule book was like $30 bucks, which probably translates to $70 now a days, but you had every rule you needed for every army, and every army list was in the one book.

when 2nd edition came out, we dubbed it hero hammer. because it was literally impossible to kill a hero with normal troops. you could have a hero move from unit to unit destroying one each turn. or maybe that was 3rd, things change so much from GW you forget where you are at sometimes.

i still make the occasional slip up on a rule due to it being different from 2 editions ago (expecially since i am playing with a codex from 2 editions ago.

hey, did i mention the orks have not got a new codex since 4th edition,

and i am slowly turning my gaming group into xwing fans, and the main reason it is working is the game play, second thing is the cost.

tata for now

Hey new orks coming out soonish. I would at least say try and hang in there till then.

The company's closer to home, more reasonable and consistent pricing, more consistent rules, Star Wars. You can get a Core Set for the price of a single Codex these days.

The perfect balance is hard to find. I don't think any game really nails it. X wing is a very fun game, but yes some builds aren't all that viable, others have terrible hard counters. At its core the game is mostly good with balance and fun.

ALL builds are viable, it is just that not all of them are competitive. A lot of the posts on this forum are from the point of view that competitive/tournament play is THE WAY (if not the ONLY way) to play X-wing. On the contrary, there are many ways to play X-wing but the most important thing is that you and your opponent(s) (more is better- share the fun) are having a good time. Seriously, the competitive nature of wargames is still a relatively new phenomenon if you look at their past 30 years of history. It is a shame that so many new players (thanks to the overpowering marketing of several industry giants) think that this is the norm if not the only way these games are played. I have nothing against competitive play... Hell, I had a great time at my first X-wing tourney last month (came in 3rd, not too shabby). It is just that 100 point (or whatever), straight up, tournament-style play is rather limiting. It is all about creating an optimal list (for your style of play), knowing that list (advantages and disadvantages), knowing a bit about opposing ship capabilities, being able to intuit your opponent's intents and reactions, and a whole hell of a lot of luck. What's missing? Two things: PURPOSE and IMAGINATION.

PURPOSE- Why are these two forces battling out here in cold, dark space? What are they trying to accomplish (or prevent their foes from accomplishing? Is there a point to the whole thing other than to go out and destroy or be destroyed? In the "real world", militaries do not clash just for the sake of clashing. You do not gamble precious resources (equipment or manpower) with nothing to gain. Why should our games be just about mutual, pointless destruction?

IMAGINATION- This IS a game about Star Wars (or at least set in the SW universe). Games should reflect something of that setting. If not, why not just play checkers? Use your imagination , create a scenario or mission with a purpose (see above), tell a story. That's what Star Wars was all about, the characters and the story (and not always good ones at that) and not just about pretty explosions in space. How about lists that optimize imagination, not just competitive efficiency? And what is so great about a fair fight? There is no such thing! No real commander seeks out a fair fight, why should you? Was the Rebel attack on the Death Star (either one) a fair fight? NO. How about being creative and coming up with a story as to WHY these ships/pilots are there, WHAT they are trying to accomplish and HOW they have to accomplish it. Some of the most epic games I have ever played in (movies, too!) are about uneven contests, with one force's back against the wall, desperately trying to accomplish a mission or just hold out. Try it, it is FUN and leads to some great stories you can reminisce about when you get old(er).

Tournament gaming is all fine and dandy but, as Spock (to mix SciFi genres) says about Kahn, it displays "...two dimensional thinking" (actually only ONE dimension... just sayin'). I am not hating on tournaments, I am challenging one and all to go beyond that, use your imagination, give your games a purpose and have FUN!

Fly casual.

Chris

I feel there is a big difference between viable and competitive.

I would say almost every list in Star Wars is viable, you can play a game you might have a hard time winning, but you will actually be able to play. Not ever list will be competitive, IE decent in a tournament environment.

In 40k there are lists which I would say are not viable, or become entirely negated by certain other lists. To the point where the game is not worth playing. I remember a game where I got my mechanised Tau army out, set up only to have 80% of my tanks blown up turn one by deep striking meltaguns. That is not playing a game, and as the set up takes so long, you would have to go back to your lists redesign (if you have the models), spend another 30mins setting up, just to attempt to get what I would consider a game.

3 rebel ship, 4, rebel ship,

Ze diffenece is not in the numbers but what combo of ships, upgrades etc you run.

But I hope we wil see more variations in tactics when the game gets a bit older.

(+ that ppl get more shps to try out new tactics with)

i have not been more excited about a game since i had seen the imperial aces pack!!!!

i love the interceptor, and the pilots that this set comes with has really got me going nuts.

its been a long time since i got this excited over a game, ok, not that long. i got this excited when i saw the big ships a few months ago.

i would get as excited again if they released a new faction!!!!!!!!!!

Poor wording on my part, when I said viable, I used viable as in, I will play, and put a good accounting for myself. Some builds in X wing even that isn't entirely accurate. Sure you can place any ships down follow the rules and play, doesn't mean you'll stand much of a chance with some selections.

I don't consider placing the ships down and knowing I'll auto lose to be viable to me, for instance. That isn't exactly demanding high tier success, just the ability to win without need of all the luck. Some builds won't net you even viability to give someone a run for their money, most will, but there are some poor calls.

I'm all for fun and even uneven contests, I almost exclusively at this point fly shuttles, so I do understand the fun aspect of it.

Indeed. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong

The perfect balance is hard to find. I don't think any game really nails it. X wing is a very fun game, but yes some builds aren't all that viable, others have terrible hard counters. At its core the game is mostly good with balance and fun.

40k is a different beast and has grown quite large, so has it's problems. Too vast and varied for anyone to truly care of here I'm sure.

I play both games, as well as Infinity and Attack wing and have fun with all of them despite any balance or game play issues, when I play I remember why I still have armies in 40k, or ships in X wing or Attack wing, etc.

I will say this game is much cheaper then 40k. Model to model, its more expensive, the amount you need to spend to field a good sized list and be top tier, hands down this is cheaper even accounting for buying boxes just for upgrades.

When I buy warhammer I get sticker shock, when I buy this, I get most times reverse sticker shock, thinking I'm being charged too little.

Lets say a new wave drops, and you want to go buck wild when it lands. Your spending what, $120 ? That's assuming all small ships and two of each as it drops, with no discount and before tax. That's more then likely a good number of points, your buying for both sides and with two of each you may not need anymore of either and that happens once a year. With the burst in between, like imperial aces for instance. That's very cheap as a yearly keep up cost.

One RipTide, for your 40kers out there is what ? 100 there abouts ? For one model, the new Tyranid Monsters, 80 for 1 right out the gate ? You still need a whole army aside from that, and just like X wing they release new things, new editions, new books that all cost.

One is most assuredly cheaper, but both are still very fun, at least to me.

How are you liking Infinity? I've been eyeing that one rather hard.

As with all games, the company you are really dictates if you enjoy yourself or not.

Infinity is really fun. A lot of rules to remember, but it leads to a very dynamic play style. The auto reaction system is great too, as it leads to each player being active most of the game. Though what I really like is this, just about anything you want to do, you can.

Want to lay down an over watch for an area ? You can do that, want to climb a wall, go for it. want to jump off a wall, sure, how about shooting a downed soldier its a war crime, but go for it.

The fact the game has medics and their use makes sense, I love that. Troop gets down, lay him over, move a medic in range to patch him up, try and avoid getting shot. There is a lot of fun to be had. I say if you have the chance give it a go, and much like this, the buy in isn't very steep and they have pretty nice starter boxes with lovely minis.

Edit: As well, yes who you play with makes all the difference in any game.

As with all games, the company you are really dictates if you enjoy yourself or not.

That is a very valid point.

Infinity is really fun. A lot of rules to remember, but it leads to a very dynamic play style. The auto reaction system is great too, as it leads to each player being active most of the game. Though what I really like is this, just about anything you want to do, you can.

Want to lay down an over watch for an area ? You can do that, want to climb a wall, go for it. want to jump off a wall, sure, how about shooting a downed soldier its a war crime, but go for it.

The fact the game has medics and their use makes sense, I love that. Troop gets down, lay him over, move a medic in range to patch him up, try and avoid getting shot. There is a lot of fun to be had. I say if you have the chance give it a go, and much like this, the buy in isn't very steep and they have pretty nice starter boxes with lovely minis.

Edit: As well, yes who you play with makes all the difference in any game.

Thanks for the insights. Of course this just makes me even more want to find some people in the area that play it. I've watched a few battle reports on Youtube with it, and it reminds me of XCom, but on a tabletop, which is NOT a bad thing. The sculpts look good too.

Just because it is fun to share, and it sounds like there are a lot of traditional wargamers here...

My old Empire army...

My Wolfguard...

And just a taste of my REAL collections...

And...

And...

And...

If you want to see years and years and YEARS of more eye candy, come on by...

http://lordashramshouseofwar.blogspot.com/