Not sure if the rules for x-wing are better necessarily... Simpler, for sure, and fun, but better?

Yeah, they are 'cuz they don't suck!

Not sure if the rules for x-wing are better necessarily... Simpler, for sure, and fun, but better?

you would need criteria to compare them by.

But if your criteria were well balanced and easy to pick up. I think X-Wing comes out ahead.

My apologies to all the WH fans out there. I am not hatin' on GW because I don't like the settings, their interpretation of the future or a fantasy setting, the look of the miniatures, or the ever increasing price of said piles of lead and plastic. I object to GW for their ability to publish high quality books with great "how to" articles showcasing the creativity and imagination of their in-house artists, while simultaneously undermining the imagination and creativity of their fan base. Creativity and imagination are highly encouraged as long as it is their imagination. If it is not "official" it is not allowed. They are hobby tyrants and their fan base is OK with that. What do I care? I care because they have become so dominant in the hobby that it is difficult for anyone to find players for other games and thus new players think that this is all there is to miniature gaming, get tired of paying a fortune for minis or next edition rules and then drop out of the hobby. There was a time (and now I'm showin' my age) where a player had to make up his own rules (or purchase from a dozen or so small publishers) or create terrain/armies from his/her own imagination. Sure, you couldn't go around the world and play the same game where ever you went, but so what!?! It was YOUR game. Even if you bought the rules, they were now your property. You bought them, play them however you want. Use whatever minis you want. Now, everybody accepts being told when, where and how to apply their imagination by the big game companies who keep dishing out gamer crack.

Holy crap, I sound like a lunatic or a heretic.

Anyway, as a game designer, I have been involved with the design/playtesting of many rule sets over my 4 decades in the hobby. It is based on that experience that I say the WHFB and WH40K rules are crap. They are not even internally consistent or logical. If you like SciFi, there are WAY better rules out there (ones that let you use whatever minis in whatever scale you like, including GW Space Marines, etc...). If you like Fantasy wargames, ditto. Hell, even GW produces a better set of Fantasy rules, namely their LotR stuff.

Rant concluded. Have a nice day!

Chris

Hell, even GW produces a better set of Fantasy rules, namely their LotR stuff.

Yes, they have made some good games.

I liked epic (space marine and armagedon) and 3rd ed 40k was good.

The sad thing is that not even their starter set contains what you need to play, other than some predetermined scenarios.

To actually use the miniatures in the starter set you need to buy a codex (or two).

40k is my only true gamer love since 2nd edition, and we will grow old together and still love it.

I do not care for cost to be honest, it is a luxury product. Over the years I have amassed a whole spacemarine company. Whenever a new codex comes out I need to buy just one or 2 boxes and use more of one thing and less of another. Minor changes. I also have a couple of other armies but none are that big and pretty all round.

40k is a horrible money draining product for people who only want to win (I once was that guy), no matter the look of the model. New edition or codex comes out, throw away your super optimized army and go buy the next best thing. I laughed so hard at the people who only got 6 carnifex armies with a bit of ripperswarm support and were then met with the 5th ed codex.

People just want an instant I win army these days... yes that is pretty expensive, but you are doing it to yourself not GW purposefully draining you.

But I was looking for another system that had simple rules and still be challenging between two players and I could play fast. I like sci-fi and I think that in a miniature game looks are very important. It took me some time to get my mind set to it and buy a force. Every self respecting starwars fan should have a Millennium Falcon, I did not have one yet and it won we over.

1

For the veteranes, you make a new "special" squad. They only buy that one, so the price isnt that problematic

I quote myself:P

40k is my only true gamer love since 2nd edition, and we will grow old together and still love it.

I do not care for cost to be honest, it is a luxury product. Over the years I have amassed a whole spacemarine company. Whenever a new codex comes out I need to buy just one or 2 boxes and use more of one thing and less of another. Minor changes. I also have a couple of other armies but none are that big and pretty all round.

40k is a horrible money draining product for people who only want to win (I once was that guy), no matter the look of the model. New edition or codex comes out, throw away your super optimized army and go buy the next best thing. I laughed so hard at the people who only got 6 carnifex armies with a bit of ripperswarm support and were then met with the 5th ed codex.

People just want an instant I win army these days... yes that is pretty expensive, but you are doing it to yourself not GW purposefully draining you.

But I was looking for another system that had simple rules and still be challenging between two players and I could play fast. I like sci-fi and I think that in a miniature game looks are very important. It took me some time to get my mind set to it and buy a force. Every self respecting starwars fan should have a Millennium Falcon, I did not have one yet and it won we over.

I agree to a point, but the real problem is that GW doesn't balance amazingly well, and it almost feels like they do it on purpose. When you have an army that works well enough and is fun to play and then 2 months down the line, because X & Y codex comes out, gets wiped out turn 1 there is a real balance issue.

I'm fine with small imbalances, but towards the end of my time of 40k I found I was spending half an hour setting up a force only for the game to be decided in the first 10mins because the enemy was taking the new BEST thing.

I'm fine with small imbalances, but towards the end of my time of 40k I found I was spending half an hour setting up a force only for the game to be decided in the first 10mins because the enemy was taking the new BEST thing.

Just ask your opponent to tone it down. In my gaming group we always discuss this with each other. And if you opponent is always going for 'win at all costs' just don't play and find someone else (or another gaming group).

I have yet to play some one after I got crushed by a new competitive combo to refuse to tone it down in a next battle if I want a casual game, or just try something funky. (This is excluding the fact that if you cannot win you should not play for the fear of losing of course.)

I'm fine with small imbalances, but towards the end of my time of 40k I found I was spending half an hour setting up a force only for the game to be decided in the first 10mins because the enemy was taking the new BEST thing.

Just ask your opponent to tone it down. In my gaming group we always discuss this with each other. And if you opponent is always going for 'win at all costs' just don't play and find someone else (or another gaming group).

I have yet to play some one after I got crushed by a new competitive combo to refuse to tone it down in a next battle if I want a casual game, or just try something funky. (This is excluding the fact that if you cannot win you should not play for the fear of losing of course.)

More a case of my time is valuable, wasting time arranging a game, waiting for a table, setting up... And then not getting a real game due to game balance..... Just got really wearing after a while. And it went both ways. I had far more turn 1 wins than turn 1 loses, but neither is satisfying.

At least with X-Wing if you get a fast win it's more likely due to a really unlikely string of dice rolls or a cock up with your maneuver selection. In both cases you can re-setup and go again. It's rarely due to a hugh disparity in your lists (unless someone is filling every upgrade slot on a Bomber, or something equally silly)

Not sure if the rules for x-wing are better necessarily... Simpler, for sure, and fun, but better?

you would need criteria to compare them by.

But if your criteria were well balanced and easy to pick up. I think X-Wing comes out ahead.

Easy to pick up? Yes.

Balanced?

For a game with only 2 factions, only 4 or 5 ships per side, rather minimalist game-play, it's surprising how often you come across some combinations, cards and squadrons (Tie Swarms, Howlwrunner & Biggs, Advanced Sensors, PTL, etc.), especially in the competitive scene.

Multiply that up to a Warhammer-style level of complexity with 15+ factions, 50 or so models per faction, far more upgrade, equipment and character-trait options, more terrain-variants, more deployment-variants, added levels of rules like HtH, morals, psychic powers, transports (units within units), etc.. ,, I'd not be sure X-Wing would come out top.

Not sure if the rules for x-wing are better necessarily... Simpler, for sure, and fun, but better?

you would need criteria to compare them by.

But if your criteria were well balanced and easy to pick up. I think X-Wing comes out ahead.

Easy to pick up? Yes.

Balanced?

For a game with only 2 factions, only 4 or 5 ships per side, rather minimalist game-play, it's surprising how often you come across some combinations, cards and squadrons (Tie Swarms, Howlwrunner & Biggs, Advanced Sensors, PTL, etc.), especially in the competitive scene.

Less so than you would think, there are definitely fairly optimum setups on certain ships, but even PtL doesn't go on every ship that has an EPT. And almost every ship except the Advanced appears in at least some top tournament lists. Like any game you have a lot of NET-DECKING going on, so certain lists appear more ofter. But most lists are fairly comparable.

You have to realize that the main mechanics of the two games are different.

In gw-games, the stat-line + special rules (and yet more special rules) are the main isues.

In x-wing it is the strategical movement.

Even with new models, that will not change.

It is not uncomon that the ships have been in every part of the board during the game.

In 40k and wh you dont move as much, so it becomes more of a agame of smashing twoo sides together and the one with the best rules will usually win.
(or the player that uses said rules to his advantage)

This is why imbalances are created.
The game isnt made to be that strategical, so the rules become more important.

In x-wing. The player will win that manages to stay out of firing-arcs and keep the enemies in his.
No new ship will change this unless they do some really really crazy changes to the game
The stats and rules are less important and the game remains strategical and balanced.

You have to realize that the main mechanics of the two games are different.

In gw-games, the stat-line + special rules (and yet more special rules) are the main isues.

In x-wing it is the strategical movement.

Even with new models, that will not change.

It is not uncomon that the ships have been in every part of the board during the game.

In 40k and wh you dont move as much, so it becomes more of a agame of smashing twoo sides together and the one with the best rules will usually win.

(or the player that uses said rules to his advantage)

This is why imbalances are created.

The game isnt made to be that strategical, so the rules become more important.

In x-wing. The player will win that manages to stay out of firing-arcs and keep the enemies in his.

No new ship will change this unless they do some really really crazy changes to the game

The stats and rules are less important and the game remains strategical and balanced.

This doesn't need to be the case. Epic: Armegeddon is a ground based combat game, and is heavily strategic and much better balanced than 40k. Shame it's hard to get a game.

Perhaps.

But it's no denying that, say, "Howlrunner" is better for her points and more popular than "Maarek Stele". PTL is clearly more useful and better than Daredevil, etc.. . They are not "balanced", and the fact that some people can make the latter work in some lists doesn't negate that.

40K is a mess, no doubt, but it is largely a mess because the game has more units and factors and variables than any game designer could humanly cope with.

For a game that in its entirety has less options and complexity than even half your average Warhammer-40K-Codex, not to mention being designed from the ground-up less than 3 years ago, rather than 30-years ago, it should be correspondingly easier for the Game Designers to also get the "Howlrunner vs. Maarek Stele" point-costing better.

PTL is clearly more useful and better than Daredevil, etc.. .

Im not so sure it is...Combined with a sharp 1 , you get the equivalent of a 0-Koiogran and a barrelroll

It makes it very hard for enemies to figure out where you will go.

Combine this with advanced sensors:)

PTL is clearly more useful and better than Daredevil, etc.. .

Im not so sure it is...Combined with a sharp 1 , you get the equivalent of a 0-Koiogran and a barrelroll

It makes it very hard for enemies to figure out where you will go.

Combine this with advanced sensors:)

Taking a random sample of 50 or 100 tournament lists will easily show PTL more often with statistical significance.

It's a rather low benchmark. If the only requirement for things to be balanced is that somebody somewhere might have a use for it, I am pretty sure every miniature game ever is a perfectly balanced game, as there's probably somebody out there for every "sub-par" option or combination that uses it nonetheless, Warhammer 40K, etc.., whathaveyou.

That logic negates the possibility of a "non-balanced" miniature game.

There is a difference between "imperfect balance" and just "non-balanced". There is also a big difference between all models being viable but some upgrades being taken less often and whole units of models going from being viable to severely-underpowered overnight.

I'm not saying that X-Wing is perfectly balanced.. it's not.. But I'm fairly confident that whole chunks of my models wont become fairly obsolete overnight. And even if a couple of models become less good they will still be playable. With 40k I found 100s of pounds of models and even whole armies were becoming obsolete overnight, due to huge codex creep (and even when the army got a new codex, they would have been balanced so you needed the newest cool thing to be competitive).

Taking a random sample of 50 or 100 tournament lists will easily show PTL more often with statistical significance.

That will be your claim to prove....

I would sooner say that the general simplicity of the tactics today is the reason. Players appear to value more attack or defence over higher mobility, even when mobility is the thing that will win games

There is a difference between "imperfect balance" and just "non-balanced". There is also a big difference between all models being viable but some upgrades being taken less often and whole units of models going from being viable to severely-underpowered overnight.

I'm not saying that X-Wing is perfectly balanced.. it's not.. But I'm fairly confident that whole chunks of my models wont become fairly obsolete overnight. And even if a couple of models become less good they will still be playable. With 40k I found 100s of pounds of models and even whole armies were becoming obsolete overnight, due to huge codex creep (and even when the army got a new codex, they would have been balanced so you needed the newest cool thing to be competitive).

What exactly is "obsolete" in Warhammer 40K?

I am sure you can find some example on how to use any given unit, just as an example was given on how to use the Daredevil card.

As said, if the criteria for "balance" is that "somebody somewhere gotta find the less popular/powerful options useful", every game, including Warhammer 40K, will pass the test.

So far, there's plenty of things in X-Wing that encourage you to buy the latest hotness for competitive gaming (e.g. Advanced Sensors).

Not to mention that somewhere between 4 and 8 years pass before any given Codex for Warhammer 40K "is updated". X-Wing as a whole is barely 16 months old. Who's gonna say they're not gonna nerf Howlrunner into uselessness in 3 years time for X-Wing 2nd Edition?

You assume that ffg will keep adding ships and rules the same way as GW.
We might see some new things, but prob. nothing like GW.

Anyway.

It is quite pointless to try to explain the problems with GW. The situation is how it is, no matter why.

And x-wing noesnt have these problems, no matter why.

(What is obsolete in 40k?
Squats, imperial jet bikes, my mutant IG army from last ed. imperial guard codex, sisters of battle .....and so on)

I had a Necron army that was fairly obsolete for an entire edition. And when was the last time you saw a monolith.

Da good ole daze of GW, not that this image is from the 1990 to 2000 era...

You had that kind of freedom and fun. If you wanted to do an all girl crazy army thing back then...dammit you could.

I had built an Eldar Exodites Force for example, and all of my Battle Brothers loved it. Try that now...

They did make all new, and frankly bad ass, Eldar and Dark Eldar...recent like, but of course;

I have been out of the game for 13'ish years.

FUGW!

Not sure if the rules for x-wing are better necessarily... Simpler, for sure, and fun, but better?

Yeah, they are 'cuz they don't suck!

Not sure if the rules for x-wing are better necessarily... Simpler, for sure, and fun, but better?

you would need criteria to compare them by.

But if your criteria were well balanced and easy to pick up. I think X-Wing comes out ahead.

Yup...

Haven't played a game of 40K since September and don't have any inclination to at the moment. I started playing X-Wing in October and haven't looked back except to see how disasterous Escalation and Data Slates is. Frankly I feel so much better about my hobby, and am about to put in an order to get at least of of each of the remaining ships that I don't have yet.

I was hating GW long before it was cool to hate GW.