They dont have to get many new players....they can live on the old ones

Honestly that is a big problem with GW stuff... I just don't know how anyone can get into the game today... Especially with all the stuff they added in with 6th/Apoc.

I don't hate GW, but there's no way I'd bother trying to build another 40k army at this point, just costs way too much.

I mean for the price of the rulebook and a codex, with 0 models... You can get 1 Core sets and 3 expansions, or very nearly get 2 large ships, and that's at full retail.

Or their full chapter set, which I will say up front, is a massive amount of models... a full chapters worth. But it's also still over 11 grand ! Just to compare... I found around 250 used cars, some as new as 2011 for the same price.

They dont have to get many new players....they can live on the old ones

Honestly that is a big problem with GW stuff... I just don't know how anyone can get into the game today... Especially with all the stuff they added in with 6th/Apoc.

I don't hate GW, but there's no way I'd bother trying to build another 40k army at this point, just costs way too much.

I mean for the price of the rulebook and a codex, with 0 models... You can get 1 Core sets and 3 expansions, or very nearly get 2 large ships, and that's at full retail.

That is totally the issue.. Lets say you were getting into Malifaux.... For the same price Rulebook + Crew box + 2 extra boxes of your choice, that's a fairly good playable force. Warmachine, you get a dang good force in the starter box and all the models come with their rules in their boxes (like Malifaux).... Not sure of the start up for Infinity but I believe the rules are downloadable and the models are normal cost, so I'm pretty sure you could get a decent force.

Not sure of the start up for Infinity but I believe the rules are downloadable and the models are normal cost, so I'm pretty sure you could get a decent force.

They are a free DL, so you're just paying for models, and those seem to be on par for most other stuff I've seen.

Not sure of the start up for Infinity but I believe the rules are downloadable and the models are normal cost, so I'm pretty sure you could get a decent force.

They are a free DL, so you're just paying for models, and those seem to be on par for most other stuff I've seen.

But you don't need 3 £60 planes and 50 models all that cost £5 a piece to have a competitive force... I think most Infinity is around 20 models or so isn't it?

X-wing has the advantage of being e new game.

Ppl will still buy models just to get playing.

WH40K has been on the market since the 80ies and a large group of the fans already have armies.

So, how do you keep selling miniatures to a group of players that already have armies?

How do you make the guy with 500 space marines buy another squad?

1

For the veteranes, you make a new "special" squad. They only buy that one, som the price isnt that problematic

2

You aim for the kids. Their parents will pay for it.

Anyway.

X-wing is part miniature game and part card game, so it not that odd that you need to buy the cards.

(But I will not mind if you proxy something to try a stretegy)

The bonus of this is that you encourage players to get models from both sides.

This makes X-wing more of a game that you can play with a visitor or a friend that does not know the game.

...40k is a game you play with some nerds that are willing to pay up and take a bachelour programe in the rules (to get one (1) army)

I have played 40k and I have some armies, but it is less fun than before.

It is simply to much of playing the rules, not the game

BUT

Be carefull

40k started with a small scale that got the problem that ppl started fighting larger battles than the game was intended for.

This got messy, you simply cannot use so detailed rules on a large scale.

They solved this in 3 eddition by simplifying the rules more to make it work better on the large scale.

...probles is that the old rules keep coming back little by little in new rules edditions and every time they release a new codex.

This might be the case to xwing too....

But with such a high buy-in price, how many new players do they get? For the record, I've never played WH, I grew up playing Battletech.... maybe I just gravitate toward skirmish-style games. Explains why I'm seriously eyeing Infinity

EDIT: Sorry about the doublepost. This was supposed to be edited in to the first post, and I can't find the delete post option.

im with you on this, my first miniatures game was battletech and we played some epic battles that lasted over 14 hours,(my parents would scratch there heads)

then i got into rogue trader era 40k. the skirmish games were alot of fun, every model meant something to you, and they were cheap as sh--. just to put it in perspective, a box set of rhino's (yes i said rihno's) was $25 for 3 tanks. but 3rd edition the exact same model was $25 dollars for 1. now the newer models look cooler and have lots of extras true. but it does the same thing in the game. you move it forward and it blows up, all for just under $40.

the problem i have with GW is the price you pay for the miniature does not reflect its worth on the battle feild. not like it did back in rogue trader.

another thing is the absents of SQUATS you dirty dogs!!!! give me back my squats!!!!

well that aside, i play orks, and you need alot of orks to play, guess what, you pay out the waagh! zooo (hehe)

lucky for me i have over 20 years of miniatures to play with. i can feild over 14000 points of orks in an apoc battle.

but i have grown tired of the game,the bigest problem with GW is the codex hammer

what is codex hammer you ask?

its when a new codex is released and the army is so over powered compared to the other army codex's. for example the tau.

they have an upgrade in that codex to break every rule in the main rulebook. and the riptard suit (riptide) is the only unit in the game i have a hard time killing. id rather face 2 demon princes than 1 riptard. and also the orks are the only army still using a 4th edition codex while we are in 6th edition. i still play competitively because i have a large pool of models to choose from, but those starting out will not choose orks because its to expensive to get the variety to keep you gaming group on thier toes.

i would love my gaming group to get into battletech, until xwing came along it was the most balanced game i had ever played. save for the clans every army used the same weapons and equipment and followed the same rules. so it was all about tactics and a little luck with the dice. (but i always argue that you create your own luck by putting your units in the best possible situation)

but, yes i am slowly growing away from GW and 40k, i am also looking forward to Robotech Tactics that is coming out in a few months (got in on the Kickstarter) i hope that game is as cool as this one.

GW has turned into a monster that we have created, now we have to deal with it. i do predict that it will kill itself by getting to big, i have never seen a fan base of any game system have so much negative to say about the game they play. i like the way they are bringing back alot of rogue trader "feel" rules. it makes the game interesting. but interesting enough to spend another small fortune on? no.

xwing is my new pasion, and i think it will only make me enjoy blowing up those rbel scum capitol ships when they come out.

I think they love it enough to not screw it up bud, but so did the GW guys back in the 80's...

I think GW is in a way a victim of it's own success... It grew to the point that it attracted people into the company that weren't gamers, and were only interested in the bottom line, which turned it into what it is now.

FFG has one advantage though, it's diversified enough that it doesn't need to milk any one game the same way GW does. I mean pretty much the only thing GW makes is Warhammer FB/40k stuff, and not much else.

FFG has X-Wing, the LCG's like Netrunner, Game of Thrones, Star Wars, ect... Plus all their board games.

Yup...you are right on the money I think.

FFG have been getting my dander up just a little bit, with their; here it is-no wait, here it comes-but wait, we are taking preorders now-no wait we need to put it back into development routine.

WAIT... FFG make Game of Thrones... They have been taking notes for George R. R. Martin......

the Dragons are coming, yes they are... wait for the Dragons... and Zombies.. there will be Zombies... wait a bit.... they are coming.

Okay then...

Tune and tone by: Dat-Ratt!

Lyrics by: Da-Boss!

Oh FFG we love that you made Star Wars into X-Wing, it is truly a feather in your cap don't you know!

We support it, we love it, we want it to go on for many a year...

YES, let it grow!

But why oh why do we have to find pictures and cool rules content at other website?

This weee... do not know!

Oh FFG you are so dear to our hearts now, but if you do not keep the X-Wing, The Y-Wing, and all of the Tie Ships in stock...we will gooo...Oh...

YES, we will go go gooo!

FFGeee...don't let us gooo!

I am not a GW refugee but I have been a long time GW player of various games. GW is a self-inflicted wound, that is why many of their old crowd fled long ago. I've played 40K since the early days of Rogue Trader but won't touch their current core games with a ten foot pole. I still hold one 40K army in my collection, a Dark Angels (BLACK not f'n green) Crusade era army, they just never leave the closet. we still play some GW games now and then but they are specialist games, which have always been their better products IMHO: 2nd edition Epic (Space marine - Titan Legions), Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Mordheim. I still like many games from the defunct GW Historical: Trafalgar, Legends of the Old West, Gladiator.

I hate GW pricing but it was their rules and commercial behavior that drove me and most that I know away forever. Good riddance. Supposedly GW's CEO will be retiring and the company may be sold to Hasbro. At this point, I can only view that as a massive improvement.

Well, if it is relative, you should compare like with like, no?

Is Warhammer 40K cheap if you and your friends agree to only play with 2 factions, and only 5 or 6 different models from each factions, and only 3 to maybe 8-10 miniatures on the table per game? It certainly is.

What would X-Wing cost if you field a hundred models per side? A pretty hefty sum!

X-Wing puts the emphasis on the individual models, Games Workshop more on quantity and "taking-20-models-at-a-time-from-the-table". But "miniature-for-miniature", "rules-page-for-rules-page", X-Wing is a lot more expensive.

To compare the "small" X-Wing games with the "large" 40K (or Fantasy) games feels a bit unfair. Might as well say... look at coin-tossing. A dime for a playing piece two player can use...beat that for "value-for-a-game"!!! Those are not fair comparison really, IMO.

I love X-Wing, and it's certainly "worth it" for me. But it's clearly in a price-class or two above GW all things considered.

I don't necessarily disagree with you because everything you said is true in a certain sense. But it goes back to a relative value. You put value (in your statement) on individual model cost. I put value in the total cost for a game to play. I don't care about whether its army or skirmish scale, just whether its fun, available at my local FLGS, my friends play it and I can afford it. I love table top games so I naturally compare table top games to each other. Different things for different people. Neither interpretation in what we value in a game is necessarily wrong.

Yeah I don't mind buying extra ships I have at least four of all small ships and two-three of large ships so the upgrades don't bother me so much as long as you have one and a squad roster with your ship and ept you ably need one for reference and in every cfriendly game I have played I don't care if there is only copy out for multiple ships cuts down on clutter

As a someone who's played a lot of GW games, X-Wing is very comparable in cost and model number to their smaller titles (Mordheim, Blood Bowl, Necromunda), many of which they've done away with.

Personally, I have largely moved on from GW games except to add a new unit or two each year, one of which is usually more costly than an entire wave of X-Wing Expansions.

I played 40k from 2001-2012, and was driven away from it by gamers in general. I found x-wing a year later and got into it for the ease of gameplay and the fact that I can play with a few friends at someone's house, as opposed to dealing with the local game store people. The prices are nice too, for a starter warhammer army I can build anything I'll ever need for rebels.

With that said, I think 5th edition 40k was a far more competitive game than x-wing for a lot of reasons. 6th edition it's all gone down the shitter, I give GW 3 years before it goes under. Went back to my lgs 2 months ago, nobody was playing any gw, and everyone was talking about how terrible 6th ed. was.

I'm just going to say that I've never played 40K and probably never will due to the simple fact that it's a very high learning curve, investment of money, and I am literally forced to paint the models. With this I don't feel pressured to do any of those things, and every wave is anywhere from $60 to $90 so far, not counting the upcoming larger ships. It's also not imperative you buy every single model of ship unless you really have to get specific cards. If you know someone who has duplicates of cards you could always just buy or trade with them too: I mean who needs more than one Wedge Antilles X-Wing card? The cool thing is that this game is still fairly small but growing at a nice gentle pace, and the people who play are anyone from little kids to super nerds like myself, to older gamers who want a more casual but still cerebral game to play.

... flee GW's crazy prices and policies?

Did that about ten years ago. It had nothing to do with X-Wing.

Not sure of the start up for Infinity but I believe the rules are downloadable and the models are normal cost, so I'm pretty sure you could get a decent force.

They are a free DL, so you're just paying for models, and those seem to be on par for most other stuff I've seen.

But you don't need 3 £60 planes and 50 models all that cost £5 a piece to have a competitive force... I think most Infinity is around 20 models or so isn't it?

Usually ten or less is all you need.

Great game and a very good community on the official forums. Y'all should check it out.

The problem for me is not really the economy. I have an allright job and I have some armies.

But the other players might not have that.
Thus you often see super-overupgraded units just to get anough points. (+armies to counter that)

This often gives long periods in the game when nothing really dies.

OR

Very one-sided battles where one player has managed to get just that combination that will win no matter what.

I find this a very interesting thread as I mainly play miniature games with my mate, who is ALL fantasy and does not like Sci Fi. We play WH and have loved it over the years, I've got three armies worth so a hefty sum. Having said that, I stopped buying GW products about a year ago for several reasons. Their prices are of course silly and alternative models are so much more tempting now, but it's not just that but the treatment of the players and fans as well as the dodgy business practices. They simply refuse to believe their are alternatives and are of the opinion 'you'll pay or you can go, we don’t need you'. BOO!!

On top of this I agree with an earlier point about 'model fatigue'. You spend a good 30 mins getting your (inevitably broken) models out and setting them up, only for one or two spells to take 35 of them off again. I adore playing WH I really do but I can understand the appeal of a smaller game like this over it from this perspective.

Also, the tactics in warhammer are, for me, not in the same league as the skill required playing X-wing. The level of random in WH is SO high and I feel that a great player in WH is often one who has spent 6 hours putting together a list and knows his details more. It's still a game of tactics but the bigger swing on probabilities that your decisions make in X-wing makes it more of a competitive game for me. Warhammer is an incredible narrative game but is too complex to be competitive.

Not having to paint or keep loads of ships is a massive thing for me after three WH armies... I don’t consider the X-wing ships fully painted, they are very good for pre paints but I will most likely customise or at least tidy up the models I have, but it’s that I don't HAVE to that I like. No rush!

I will still play WH a lot with my mate, it's a great narrative game, if not a competitive one. I'm at his next week for a games night and he has agreed to play X-wing 'out of curiosity', mainly because I have told him about it's excellent sales figures and it's great reputation in the tournament scenes. I would never tell him this as he's one of my best friends and WH is kind of 'our thing' but I secretly hope it has some magic ability and at least becomes a regular addition.

In an ideal world I'd be playing both, but I do hope more WH players make their way to X-wing... not least because loads of them rely so much on 'power builds' and walking forward expecting to win cos of their list, should make for some more easy first rounds in tournies

rd expecting to win cos of their list, should make for some more easy first rounds in tournies

I enjoy all wargames and play a number myself, although I've sold off my two huge Warhammer armies to fund historical armies. Warhammer has become stupidly expensive... I painted five terminators which, in plastic, cost 60 bucks. That is just idiotic. Still, the Warhammer games have fantastic fluff, a LOT of tactics to consider, and have the key piece of the hobby; namely, painting and modeling, which X Wing doesn't really have to any extent, a few ship repaints notwithstanding.

While I did not play WH, for the better part of 30 odd years, I collected GW, Ral Partha, Grenadier , Iron Wind, WoTC, Fasa(Star Fleet Battles & Battletech). Tens of Thousands of dollars spent on collecting and painting minis for Fantasy gaming(Mainly for D&D).

Five years ago a fire wiped everything out, 35 years of comics, D&D, tech, models, minis, boards, boxed sets, swords, art prints and convention autographs. gone in minutes.

After a long drawn out battle with the insurance company on values and replacement costs. I eventually just gave up and got cost value, nothing in my collection was going to be replaced.

Once I had a chance to see this game played I was hooked, low cost initial investment, low cost upkeep, highly configurable, great community and fantastic game company(FFG).

I may re-invest in collecting fantasy mini's for my table top game(heck Robotech RPG Tactics), all thanks to FFG, and the great work they have done with this game.

FFG has one advantage though, it's diversified enough that it doesn't need to milk any one game the same way GW does. I mean pretty much the only thing GW makes is Warhammer FB/40k stuff, and not much else.

Actually...thats how gw was.

They got problems with to many games to support (talisman, dragons tower, chainsaw warrior, rogue trooper)

I can't get away from GW just because it's so ubiquitous. Seems like everyone has played it. When I can go to the game store and can't get a game of X-wing, or Warmachine, or half a dozen other miniatures games out there, I can always get a pick up game of 40K.

I enjoy the modeling and hobby aspect of GW, but the game play leaves a lot to be desired. X-wing is a far superior game in the rules department to what the current edition of Fantasy or 40K has.

As far as "fleccing the consumer for money"- FFG is a business, and they have to make money. If they don't make money, that means no new models/espansions/games. In the miniatures business, you will not survive for very long if your customers only have to buy the rules and models once. Look at boardgames- this is a huge issue for them, and even the best selling board games have several varient edtions, or special editions, or expansions.

I can't get away from GW just because it's so ubiquitous. Seems like everyone has played it. When I can go to the game store and can't get a game of X-wing, or Warmachine, or half a dozen other miniatures games out there, I can always get a pick up game of 40K.

I enjoy the modeling and hobby aspect of GW, but the game play leaves a lot to be desired. X-wing is a far superior game in the rules department to what the current edition of Fantasy or 40K has.

As far as "fleccing the consumer for money"- FFG is a business, and they have to make money. If they don't make money, that means no new models/espansions/games. In the miniatures business, you will not survive for very long if your customers only have to buy the rules and models once. Look at boardgames- this is a huge issue for them, and even the best selling board games have several varient edtions, or special editions, or expansions.

Which is why, I suppose, these are two different reasons for taking refuge.

Are you here for X-Wing, because the rules are better? The models cooler? The Star Wars-vibe more enjoyable than skull-encrusted-skulls-on-skulls-with-skulls-on-top? Welcome!!!

Are you here for X-Wing, because you think FFG is gonna be less "business-like" in getting the most money out of you? Think again. Or at least, come over here with "open eyes".

I can't get away from GW just because it's so ubiquitous. Seems like everyone has played it. When I can go to the game store and can't get a game of X-wing, or Warmachine, or half a dozen other miniatures games out there, I can always get a pick up game of 40K.

This for me, I can pick up games of 40k easy enough, but x-wing games are harder to find then a needle in a haystack...actually the needle would be easier to find..

Finding a game of x-wing is not the same thing as 40k

It is true that less ppl play it (so far)

But the rules are easy and it is note a big economical pressure to have both imps and rebels, so you can basically just pick up random people and play.

Actually, if you have 40k-players in the store, it should not be that tricky to ask if they would be interested in trying a game of x-wing

Not sure if the rules for x-wing are better necessarily... Simpler, for sure, and fun, but better?