And if the attacker scored too good, you still might have the chance for a dive for cover.

Exactly, although you're technically not supposed to know whether or not your opponent rolled well or not (and your character definitely isn't) ^^

You can see it in his eyes when he aims at you.

Gaunt, if my players all bought ridiculous dodge levels, then my NPCs WOULD start carrying inescapable attack and dual weapon wielder. Not to invalidate their choices, but to scale the challenge as they level up. If your high level acolytes are still fighting squads of dudes with robes and swords, then you might want to consider giving their enemies something new.

And it's not all about ridiculous minmaxes.

At low exp levels with opposed tests, dodge is horrifically bad, and at high levels there's no reason to buy it if you aren't an agility character

On your point to Gaunt: The problem with binary dodge is when one or two players at the table max their dodge/AG. These characters then force me as a dm to either scale the challenge to near certain kill levels for the the non combat optimized players or else allow the maxed characters to run the table and make the others feel useless, which is typically not a pleasant experience for the players.

The reason why you claim dodge is "horrifically bad" has to do with the ability to stack huge attack bonuses but not be able to do the same thing in defence. If a 30 BS attacks a 30 AG character, then it is fair and even. If the 30 BS character then gets to add for single shot, aiming, red dot and gets his atk up to 60 or 70, then dodge is "horrifically bad". Given that we have essentially gone back to 1st edition, any character who isn't an agility character is just gimping their character for some roleplaying reason, as EVERYTHING is agility based again. One of the coolest things that was done in DH2B1 (and of course removed) was to use other stats as combat stats to give players a reason to focus on something other than AG.

The solution is not to go back to binary dodge, but to allow for bonuses to dodge (like there are for parry) to compensate for the increases in attack bonus from base.

Even house ruling that dodge only works on BS, while parry is used against WS, we had no issues with the opposed dodge and parry rules in DH2B1 and ran that system 8hrs a week for months without issue.

Gaunt, if my players all bought ridiculous dodge levels, then my NPCs WOULD start carrying inescapable attack and dual weapon wielder. Not to invalidate their choices, but to scale the challenge as they level up. If your high level acolytes are still fighting squads of dudes with robes and swords, then you might want to consider giving their enemies something new.

And it's not all about ridiculous minmaxes.

At low exp levels with opposed tests, dodge is horrifically bad, and at high levels there's no reason to buy it if you aren't an agility character

On your point to Gaunt: The problem with binary dodge is when one or two players at the table max their dodge/AG. These characters then force me as a dm to either scale the challenge to near certain kill levels for the the non combat optimized players or else allow the maxed characters to run the table and make the others feel useless, which is typically not a pleasant experience for the players.

The reason why you claim dodge is "horrifically bad" has to do with the ability to stack huge attack bonuses but not be able to do the same thing in defence. If a 30 BS attacks a 30 AG character, then it is fair and even. If the 30 BS character then gets to add for single shot, aiming, red dot and gets his atk up to 60 or 70, then dodge is "horrifically bad". Given that we have essentially gone back to 1st edition, any character who isn't an agility character is just gimping their character for some roleplaying reason, as EVERYTHING is agility based again. One of the coolest things that was done in DH2B1 (and of course removed) was to use other stats as combat stats to give players a reason to focus on something other than AG.

The solution is not to go back to binary dodge, but to allow for bonuses to dodge (like there are for parry) to compensate for the increases in attack bonus from base.

Even house ruling that dodge only works on BS, while parry is used against WS, we had no issues with the opposed dodge and parry rules in DH2B1 and ran that system 8hrs a week for months without issue.

Except agility was even more of a GodStat in beta 1. Stacking it up to 90 before even factoring Dodge skill? Using it as RoF for weapons, movement like crazy, and worst of all REPLACING TB as damage soak.

The system is going to be a mess either way when you get to ridiculous levels of dodge. If you are using opposed dodge, and some players have stacked it up to ridiculous levels, then the rest are still left behind in worthless land. If the enemies get better to counter high dodge, it makes the low level dodgers useless.

Dodge will always be annoying at high levels, but binary doesn't make it game ruining at low levels.

The game shouldn't be balanced around what if scenarios of dodge 90 players anyways.

If you're having problems with them, burn their evasions with area attacks then shoot them.

The problem is, that its not that difficult to get a high dodge char.

If you are playing +25 characters with point allocation, you can go 45 right away.

The first 3 increases are not that expensive (if you have at least 1 aptitude, even cheaper if you have 2).

[1.500 with 1 aptitude, 850 XP with 2 aptitudes]

Also, Dodge is not expensive (you might even have it as start skill), +10 is also quite affordable and +20 also not out of reach.

[1.200 with 1 aptitude, 600 XP with 2 aptitudes, 500 if its a starting skill]

With these added together, you have 45+15+20=80

As you already do have 900 starting XP, you jist need 450 XP in addition if you have 2 aptitudes each and dodge as starting skill].

And thats really a lot dodge if used binary.

I would advocate for limits to dodge such as Dodge +10 at the max and scrap Dodge +20 and instead increase the effectiveness of cover related defensive tactics.

The problem is, that its not that difficult to get a high dodge char.

If you are playing +25 characters with point allocation, you can go 45 right away.

The first 3 increases are not that expensive (if you have at least 1 aptitude, even cheaper if you have 2).

[1.500 with 1 aptitude, 850 XP with 2 aptitudes]

Also, Dodge is not expensive (you might even have it as start skill), +10 is also quite affordable and +20 also not out of reach.

[1.200 with 1 aptitude, 600 XP with 2 aptitudes, 500 if its a starting skill]

With these added together, you have 45+15+20=80

As you already do have 900 starting XP, you jist need 450 XP in addition if you have 2 aptitudes each and dodge as starting skill].

And thats really a lot dodge if used binary.

You DID want higher power acolytes. I play with 20+2D10 for stats, so even agility 35 is rather higher. The most dodge I think I've ever had to deal with was 60-70' which is totally fine.

And I'll say again, why do you want to balance everything on the idea of players min maxing one skill? If they want to do that, you are totally justified using multitudes of attacks and other dirty tactics to get by it. It's not in any way an insurmountable problem.

I would advocate for limits to dodge such as Dodge +10 at the max and scrap Dodge +20 and instead increase the effectiveness of cover related defensive tactics.

I was actually thinking this recently. Wouldn't be a terrible solution.

Except agility was even more of a GodStat in beta 1. Stacking it up to 90 before even factoring Dodge skill? Using it as RoF for weapons, movement like crazy, and worst of all REPLACING TB as damage soak.

The system is going to be a mess either way when you get to ridiculous levels of dodge. If you are using opposed dodge, and some players have stacked it up to ridiculous levels, then the rest are still left behind in worthless land. If the enemies get better to counter high dodge, it makes the low level dodgers useless.

Dodge will always be annoying at high levels, but binary doesn't make it game ruining at low levels.

The game shouldn't be balanced around what if scenarios of dodge 90 players anyways.

If you're having problems with them, burn their evasions with area attacks then shoot them.

I agree with the annoying part of dodge, especially as it is the one skill that applies to all attacks.

You are in a situation where you have a choice of making single shot type characters useless without serious table negotiation (binary) or giving them a chance to contribute to the combat. I realize that this opens the door back up to the overpowering effect of the sniper rifle, especially now that pistol grips are back in the mix and we have the stupid sight of dual wielding sniper rifles again ( BTW game designers, you REALLY need to add that adding a pistol grip negates accurate ).

I have an autogun against a guy with a melta gun. We both have dodges of 75 (55 AG Dodge +20, about 1400 xp, so these are starting characters almost). We'll give both of us a BS 45 and a red dot. With a half aim at short range, I have a 75% chance of hitting, he has an 75%.

Except that I have a 75% chance of negating the shot altogether because single shot is binary, so his actual chance of hitting me is now .25*.75 = 19%.

Meanwhile, since his dodge and my to hit are the same, I am 50-50 to do damage every round, and roughly 16% of the time will succeed with a 5 shot burst into the opponent.

Most of the time the autogun wins.

Even more damning is that the guy with the single shot gun is getting way frustrated with the dodging, where the guy with the autogun doesn't feel that frustration because every round or so at least one bullet is getting through, while by the odds, the melta gun is whiffing 4 out of 5 rounds. The only way to win this combat is to gang up on the guy with the much better weapon, because autofire trumps awesomness of weapon.

Exactly! I had an arbite in a group that loved using shotguns but was always constantly frustrated at higher ranks because it got dodged much of the time. He might as well have been rank 1 when firing that thing because it didn't matter. They dodge, you miss regardless of everything else.

You are in a situation where you have a choice of making single shot type characters useless without serious table negotiation (binary) or giving them a chance to contribute to the combat. I realize that this opens the door back up to the overpowering effect of the sniper rifle, especially now that pistol grips are back in the mix and we have the stupid sight of dual wielding sniper rifles again ( BTW game designers, you REALLY need to add that adding a pistol grip negates accurate ).

Agreed with the bolded part. The only better idea would be to kill the pistol grip idea with fire, bury the ashes in one of those mines they use for nuclear waste and enforce this policy every time someone brings it up again.

It's not the grip that forces you to use a basic weapon with two hands. It's distribution of mass.

I've banned pistol grip since day 1. Almost all of the guns already have pistol grips. The upgrade doesn't make sense.

The only way to win this combat is to gang up on the guy with the much better weapon, because autofire trumps awesomness of weapon.

Or to simply soak his autogun bullets and vaporize him on the spot once your meltagun finally doesn't get dodged But I get your point. While it might (somewhat) even out, the problem remains that a weak automatic weapon is at least as good as a hard to get, very high powered single shot weapon.

The problem is, that its not that difficult to get a high dodge char.

If you are playing +25 characters with point allocation, you can go 45 right away.

The first 3 increases are not that expensive (if you have at least 1 aptitude, even cheaper if you have 2).

[1.500 with 1 aptitude, 850 XP with 2 aptitudes]

Also, Dodge is not expensive (you might even have it as start skill), +10 is also quite affordable and +20 also not out of reach.

[1.200 with 1 aptitude, 600 XP with 2 aptitudes, 500 if its a starting skill]

With these added together, you have 45+15+20=80

As you already do have 900 starting XP, you jist need 450 XP in addition if you have 2 aptitudes each and dodge as starting skill].

And thats really a lot dodge if used binary.

You DID want higher power acolytes. I play with 20+2D10 for stats, so even agility 35 is rather higher. The most dodge I think I've ever had to deal with was 60-70' which is totally fine.

And I'll say again, why do you want to balance everything on the idea of players min maxing one skill? If they want to do that, you are totally justified using multitudes of attacks and other dirty tactics to get by it. It's not in any way an insurmountable problem.

I would advocate for limits to dodge such as Dodge +10 at the max and scrap Dodge +20 and instead increase the effectiveness of cover related defensive tactics.

I was actually thinking this recently. Wouldn't be a terrible solution.

I still DO want higher power acolytes. Which is no problem at all if you have opposed evading, which I also DO want.

WANT WANT WANT *greedy eyes*