Yeah, but Wookie... Look at your lists. You clearly have all the ships you need to build identical fleets, but also to vary it up. I am sure you've flown a lot of different fleets. But this post is advice for a new player, not advice for a guy who has the ability to field both huge fleets of identical ships AND huge, varied fleets. The post is about what a totally new player should buy, and for a new player I think the idea of spending hard earned money on a totally identical fleet is just minimizing the variety of the game unnecessarily.

Once he has a little variety and has experimented with some ships to figure out what types he enjoys flying, and once he has some more money, sure, he can pick up fleets of four of the same ship. But I absolute don't think that a TIE or X Wing expansion should be his first non-core purchase. I don't even think it should be his second non-core purchase.

Again, I'm not taking issue with that, I'm taking issue with you lumping in some opinionated statements on how uninteresting you find single-ship builds. If you want to encourage him to try out some different stuff, pick up some other ships he can't find in the core set (although both the X-Wing and TIE sets come with very important pilots for those ships, as well as upgrades not in the core set), that's great - but you're packaging in some pretty personally opinionated sermonizing on how a rainbow squad of ships is better, and I take some issue with that.

I would go so far as to argue that for a new player, trying to learn to fly four or five completely different ships at once and figure out how to use them is actually much more intimidating and much less helpful than giving him a basic 3X squad of Wedge, Biggs, and Luke or whatever and having him go to town. Trying to learn to master the X-Wing, Y-Wing, A-Wing, B-Wing dial all at once, and then learn to fly something like the Falcon well (which is a whole other skill set that takes time to develop) can be overwhelming for a new player.

I find that difficult to understand.

What you seem to have trouble understanding is why someone might find something fun that you don't. I'm all for different view points, people shouldn't buy a 2x Core + X and Tie Fighter just because that's the the only "correct" answer.

However for someone starting out, it's likely the best place to start, because it gives them good lists to start with, lists that are proven to be effective and fun to fly for most people.

There's no question that the 4x <ship> lists work very well, that's been proven time and time again, so that's not really a matter for debate. What is a matter of opinion is how fun they are to fly.

What I have issue with is how you seem to dismiss everyone else opinion on the matter. Just because you don't like a given style of lists, doesn't mean you should dismiss it like you have.

Feel free to give your opinion and suggest something else, but don't dismiss something that has been proven effective based on your own opinion.

but you're packaging in some pretty personally opinionated sermonizing on how a rainbow squad of ships is better

I agree, I don't object to the advice so much as the dismissive tone of his posts.

I would go so far as to argue that for a new player, trying to learn to fly four or five completely different ships at once and figure out how to use them is actually much more intimidating and much less helpful than giving him a basic 3X squad.

I would agree. The best place to start is something like 4 Tie Fighters and 2 X-Wings. It gives you two balanced lists, that work well and don't have a huge learning curb, because everything does basically the same thing.

Trying to start off with 3 Tie Fighters, 1 Bomber and an Interceptor vs a X-Wing, B-Wing and HWK-290 is going to be much more difficult to a new player, because not only are they trying to learn the game, they're having to do while figure out how to make 3 completely different ships work together...

Or in other words... KISS rules the day here. For someone new to the game, keep it simple, because that lowers the curb, lets you learn how to play, then you can start adding in other ships once you got the basics down.

But again... Proven effective? Won in tournaments? That isn't what THIS THREAD is about. It is a newbie asking for advice about what to buy as his first purchases. I specifically said that I would not buy two core sets and then make my first two expansion sets a TIE and an X-Wing. Wookie, at no point did I say he should have a rainbow fleet; all I said was specifically that he should branch out a bit and avoid three XWings and five TIE fighters as his first purchases in the game. In fact, I recommended a b-wing OR an a-wing OR an interceptor, so he could try out differently-capable ships. I agree COMPLETELY that an XYAB build would be a MESS for a new player... But I think ship number three (rebel) and five (imperial) are much much better served as something different.

If he comes back and posts "Hey I enjoy the variety in this game, but now I want to try a competitive build" then great, a four b wing with sensors list or a Han Shoots First list or a Wedge/Biggs list or a TIE swarm is perfect. But that is not what this thread is about, and I think that saying "Go buy two core sets and then make your first expansions a TIE and an X" is poor first-three-purchases advice for someone just starting out with the game. I think, in the context of this thread, that advice of two core sets and then something that flies very different than an x-wing is much, much better advice.

And again... Pilots and upgrades can be printed out for someone who is new and money-conscious, which the OP has already said he is. If he enjoys the new pilots and upgrades he can buy them... But I would recommend against them as purchase number three and four.

I'm sorry if the tone comes off badly; it might partially be the tone deaf nature of the Internet. But I think part of it is that I get a little put off that often when a "new player" post comes up, a number of competitive players jump in and give advice more suited to their own competitive gaming and not to just getting a feel for the game and the original idea behind the post. I'm not specifically speaking about anyone in this thread, honestly, but it is something I see happen a lot, where people have a hard time posting in response to the actual OP and not their own game style, and I think it is just bad advice.

And yes, obviously this is all my opinion. That is all Internet posts are:)

That's actually brilliant advice for new players. Keep it simple. Don't try a complicated build that's going to require a lot of skill and squad synergy to pull off, don't fly ships you don't know at all just because they're the flavor of the day. Stick to the basics. You might not win any tournaments that way, but if you're a new player you probably won't be doing that regardless.

Another good, proven build is a Falcon + 2 escorts. You only have to learn to fly two ships, the YT is the most forgiving big ship to fly (good dial, 360 shots), and you can pair it with just about any ship you're comfortable with and go to town.

I think flying a single ship-type squadron is a bit more "fluffy" in this game than others. It doesn't feel as much like "spamming" in X-Wing as it does in other miniatures games.

That said, I also agree with Ashram's point that 3 X-wings and 5 Ties does not seem like a great start, especially since to match all those ships up in a battle, it seems like you end up with a lot of named TIE pilots, adding even more things to keep track of.

Ideally, as a newer person myself who still wants to have some other toys:

1) Core Set x2, 1 rebel ship and 1 imperial of choice. (More cost effective to start to get mulitple ships and a variety)

2) Core Set, X-Wing expansion, Tie Expansion, 1 rebel and 1 imperial, (More expensive but a variety of pilots/upgrades).

But again... Proven effective? Won in tournaments? That isn't what THIS THREAD is about. It is a newbie asking for advice about what to buy as his first purchases. I specifically said that I would not buy two core sets and then make my first two expansion sets a TIE and an X-Wing. Wookie, at no point did I say he should have a rainbow fleet; all I said was specifically that he should branch out a bit and avoid three XWings and five TIE fighters as his first purchases in the game. In fact, I recommended a b-wing OR an a-wing OR an interceptor, so he could try out differently-capable ships. I agree COMPLETELY that an XYAB build would be a MESS for a new player... But I think ship number three (rebel) and five (imperial) are much much better served as something different.

If he comes back and posts "Hey I enjoy the variety in this game, but now I want to try a competitive build" then great, a four b wing with sensors list or a Han Shoots First list or a Wedge/Biggs list or a TIE swarm is perfect. But that is not what this thread is about, and I think that saying "Go buy two core sets and then make your first expansions a TIE and an X" is poor first-three-purchases advice for someone just starting out with the game. I think, in the context of this thread, that advice of two core sets and then something that flies very different than an x-wing is much, much better advice.

And again... Pilots and upgrades can be printed out for someone who is new and money-conscious, which the OP has already said he is. If he enjoys the new pilots and upgrades he can buy them... But I would recommend against them as purchase number three and four.

I think you're badly misunderstanding one point. Nobody is telling him "take a proven build and go win yourself a world championship." We are telling him "there are a number of straightforward, proven lists out there, which are good builds for a new player precisely because they are solid and have no glaring weaknesses."

If I had a dime for every new player I saw with some slapdash squadron that makes zero sense on paper, that had some glaring hole you could exploit and was made up of three or four random ships they pulled off the rack, I'd retire. If he doesn't have the money to go purchase four of everything that's great - but you're advocating that more than we are, in saying "hey, go get another X-Wing or whatever and there are a number of good squads you can start with right there."

There's a difference between telling him to play a proven build because we think it's going to win him a tournament his first time out, and telling him to stick to proven builds because most new players throw terrible builds together, get destroyed in every match they play, and get frustrated and discouraged. But they've GOT an A-Wing, an X-Wing, a HWK and a B-Wing now because those looked cool in the package and they're by god going to play them. So they assemble some squad at random that makes an experienced player cry.

I just want to see him put together a good, simple squadron - not because it's endorsed by the pros, but because the fact you still see those squads played at the highest level shows that there is merit to them. Win, lose, or draw, you're less likely to have an absolute blowout of game because they're well-rounded, forgiving squads. That's all.

I see no reason at ALL to buy two core sets and THEN an xwing and TIE expansion unless you are a tournament player.

Why on earth would you want to fleets made up of the exact same ship with different pilots? I mean, if you really want to fly Wedge or Howlrunner, just print the cards out and use them! Here are my printed copies... They certainly look fine, especially backed on extra one-off cards you cannot use (ie your second of each named pilot.)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XHCOoLulyJc/UZkBgPs_BHI/AAAAAAAAGWA/zJ_vPZ8EJEM/s1600/DSC_0187.JPG

Avoid the TIE and XWing expansion. Instead, pick up some ships that fly really different, so you have some variety! Grab a b wing (operates in small spaces but has problems a range) or an a wing (fast and slippery but not a lot of firepower.). Or pick up an interceptor, so you can get a really interesting flying ship and even pick up Soontir Fel.

I cannot advocate against two core sets and then a xwing and tie expansion enough. Just leaves you with a bunch of identical flying ships. What is the fun in that? Flying is a lot of the fun in this game, and it is obviously a lot more fun to fly ships with diffent flying patterns.

It really depends on the budget too. I have never played in a tournament, but I have 3 core sets and might add some more if my local Target has them for $20. I have 9 TIEs which is usually, but not always, sufficient if we have 2+ games going on simultaneously.

If you want the actual cards rather than printing out proxies, then, well, Howlrunner comes in the TIE Fighter expansion. If you're an Imperial player and are spending $100+ (or play both and spending $200+) then it is absolutely worth spending the $10 (Miniature Market price, not retail) for her. She is what makes the TIE swarms work.

That's actually brilliant advice for new players. Keep it simple. Don't try a complicated build that's going to require a lot of skill and squad synergy to pull off, don't fly ships you don't know at all just because they're the flavor of the day. Stick to the basics. You might not win any tournaments that way, but if you're a new player you probably won't be doing that regardless.

Another good, proven build is a Falcon + 2 escorts. You only have to learn to fly two ships, the YT is the most forgiving big ship to fly (good dial, 360 shots), and you can pair it with just about any ship you're comfortable with and go to town.

This!

Also, it raises one obvious point....

The Millenium Falcon is awesome looking! My wife doesn't play the game and even she thought it was really sweet looking. Ignore the naysayers that say it's a piece of junk.

Win, lose, or draw, you're less likely to have an absolute blowout of game because they're well-rounded, forgiving squads.

Exactly...

When someone is learning something new, the best thing to do is keep it simple and stick to stuff that's been proven to work.

This is true of most anything you'll do. Learn to play a musical instrument and you'll start with scales and work up from there, because starting with anything more complex leads to frustration... and that way leads to the dark side.

Myself and a few of my friends play Disc Golf, and we take great joy in teaching others how much fun the sport is, but when we have someone new we don't give them 15 disc's and take them to a world champ level course. We give them 3 or 4 and take them somewhere forgiving so they can learn the basics then go from there.

In X-Wing the 3 X-Wing 5 Tie Fighter list works for much the same reason. It gives you a forgiving squad to start with that you can win with, but doesn't overload you with options, and having to figure out how to make the list work, something you have to do if you add in more options. With that list you can count on having a game where any frustration comes from bad dice, or just not knowing how to play yet. There's little you can do to fix the dice issue, and people just starting know they don't know how to play yet. So having a proven list removes one variable that can make the difference between a good and bad experience.

It's not the only list that you can start with, but it's one that's been proven to work well for newbies.

And again, to clarify a point: I am not advocating new players run my favorite squadron. It requires you to buy not only four B-Wings, but four SHUTTLES just to get the copies of Advanced Sensors you need. It's fun to fly, but is pretty cost-intensive and not something I'd ever suggest a new player sink almost $200 into.

My point was that you were dismissing monochrome squads as boring and ineffective, which is personal opinion and not very good advice. I wouldn't advocate my squad, but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a 3-4 X-Wing squad, a small TIE swarm, a YT + 2 of whatever squad, all of which there are some very reliable builds for out there, all of which you can assemble for a pretty reasonable cost.

Okay, I don't disagree in any large way with what you guys are saying. I guess I am looking at it as what do I think is the best first three and four purchases to both enjoy the game and get a little variety which is, as they say, the spice of life;). I agree completely that just buying a random assortment of different ships is a terrible, terrible idea... The idea of an X/A/Y/Hwk build makes me cry a little on the inside. But I still think that, for a cost conscious first timer, making that three/five slot something different, even if the four/six slot go to an X or a TIE, is a good way to get to enjoy the flying variety of the game, which I think is a huge part of X Wing.

Personally, in relation to the OP, I would go with two cores and then an Interceptor and a B Wing... Keeps the relative feel of the two sides somewhat static (bigger, heartier rebels vs slippery imperials) while still introducing a ship per side that has a distinct flight profile. As a non competitive gamer (ie I can print my cards and no one cares) I would then do a third Core set, both for the ships and for the dice, and follow that up with either a second Interceptor and B-Wing, or maybe a Bomber and an A Wing. After that, it is whatever floats your boat.

2B2X is also a very viable squad, FYI. You can fit 2 Rookies and 2 Blues with Heavy Laser Cannons for exactly 100 points. Or you can ditch those and split 14 upgrade points between the four ships (or bump them up in pilot skill to Reds and/or Daggers, etc). Two core sets (or an X-Wing expansion) and 2 B-Wings would do the trick.

And there are a million good builds out there that use either that exact combination of ships (in some form), or 2Bs or 2Xs. For instance, if you add a Falcon down the road, either ship makes for an excellent pair of wingmen for Han or Chewie. Gives you a ton of flexibility and variety without too much risk.

Personally, in relation to the OP, I would go with two cores and then an Interceptor and a B Wing...

See I don't think that's a bad idea, but a Interceptor without PtL is less effective. But myself I'd actually say my recommendation for new people, who have the money to do so is 2 Core sets, a YT-1200 and Firespray. That gives you 2 very good lists, with perhaps the most iconic ships in the whole SW universe.

Wow, this topic has sure blown up into what really looks like a pointless argument.

I see no reason at ALL to buy two core sets and THEN an xwing and TIE expansion unless you are a tournament player.

Why on earth would you want to fleets made up of the exact same ship with different pilots? I mean, if you really want to fly Wedge or Howlrunner, just print the cards out and use them! Here are my printed copies... They certainly look fine, especially backed on extra one-off cards you cannot use (ie your second of each named pilot.)

I know when I see the "just print out the cards and use them" argument I want to counter with "Just make your own dials and say your ship is what ever you want it to be." It's really all the same difference. If I want to say one of my TIE Fighters is REALLY a TIE Interceptor (forget what it looks like) how is that any different?

Some people do NOT play with proxies for ANYTHING which is the "official" game rules. After that you start seeing people allowing proxies for various things so who's to say where you draw the line that is "too much!" If you and I both have just Core set Fighters what gives you the right so say one of your ships is Howlrunner while denying me the right to say one of my Fighters actually represents an Interceptor? We'd both be using things we don't actually have so we are equally in violation of the actual game rules.