Don't forget the impact that the Clone Wars would have had on people's attitudes on droids. At the time of the game, it's only been 19 years since the end of the conflict, and the Republic/Empire messaging/propaganda would have painted droids in a very bad light. Even those who served the Republic with distinction would be lumped in with the Baktoid B-1's from an otherwise ignorant public. Those memories would have been long, and why some individuals might install a droid detector in their Cantina.

Don't forget the impact that the Clone Wars would have had on people's attitudes on droids. At the time of the game, it's only been 19 years since the end of the conflict, and the Republic/Empire messaging/propaganda would have painted droids in a very bad light. Even those who served the Republic with distinction would be lumped in with the Baktoid B-1's from an otherwise ignorant public. Those memories would have been long, and why some individuals might install a droid detector in their Cantina.

The people practically forget everything about the Jedi. I doubt that killer droids are more memorable. Besides, I see nothing that indicates the Empire promotes a fear of droids. Instead, they push the fact that droids are equipment, not beings and the bad guys of the Clone Wars were the Separatists that controlled the Droid Army rather than the droids themselves.

The people practically forget everything about the Jedi.

That plot point (along with Obi-Wan's extreme aging) was hardly handled or explained competently.

It makes sense. 99.9% of the galaxy will never meet or even be within 1000 miles of a jedi. But everyone heard about the droid armies and see droids all over. Jedi was just some nebulous name for some religious turncoats that were in charge of the soldiers. You could replace jedi with Battle Reverend and it wouldn't make a difference.

In my group, the droid is fitted with a fake restraining bolt, so that everyone assumes he's just another droid going about the work of its master, albeit a model they've never seen before (he was a custom built droid, made to install and repair cybernetics). As a droid, he gets treated like property by the NPCs, and often gets ignored, which gives him certain opportunities the rest of us don't have. The droid is a little crazy* at times, but as the doctor AND the mechanic, we owe him a lot.

*For example, the droid once spiked a party member's drink at a party as an experiment so he could observe his symptoms.

Droids rights are non-civilians in all eras, as you have to remember that sentience is a unique trait, most droids never gain the ability to become truly free thinking. Hence for most part the general public are right, they are just property. It's hardly comparable to racisim or slavery unless your one of the droids who do gain that ability.

As for the whole bounty hunter thing. I doubt that they would advitise themselves as droid bounty hunters, but rather pretend to be another species or otherwise be a crew of a species that allows them relative freedom.

As for restriction of arms/armour/wardroidness. I imagine all party members would be subject to that treatment if being heavily armed is an issue. Just in which case they would be told to leave all the arms behind, though I imagine it would be fine to disarm the droid if bartered for..

It makes sense. 99.9% of the galaxy will never meet or even be within 1000 miles of a jedi. But everyone heard about the droid armies and see droids all over. Jedi was just some nebulous name for some religious turncoats that were in charge of the soldiers. You could replace jedi with Battle Reverend and it wouldn't make a difference.

On the other hand, if there were superheroes with laserswords around while me dad was growing up, I'm fairly sure they'd have been in the news. I'm bloody certain he'd have told me about them.

In the real world, there'd be books and films and TV shows about them. (EDIT: And comics, and lunchboxes, and... all the other Star Wars merch.)

I think this is one of the things that bugged me most about the prequel films. The original trilogy treated the Jedi as if they were a myth. Implying they weren't well known during the Clone Wars.

Kenobi tells Luke that Lars was probably afraid Kenobi would drag Luke off on some crusade like he did with Luke's father. I'd like to have seen that - Kenobi risking the secrecy that had protected this Jedi secret society because people were suffering (and everyone paying the price for that).

That plot point (along with Obi-Wan's extreme aging) was hardly handled or explained competently.

Well that one's easy. Sun damage is what really makes people look old. Consider this trucker: http://gizmodo.com/5914862/shocking-proof-of-how-the-sun-makes-you-age-prematurely and consider those 90-year old monks who spend all day meditating, never going outside, and look like they're in their 20's. There's plenty of examples all over -- suntans are really really bad for your skin. And what does Tattooine have two of? Suns. Obi-Wan's age isn't hard to explain away, what's difficult to explain is why why more people on Tatooine don't look older, but then perhaps everyone else uses lots of sun-tan lotion.

That plot point (along with Obi-Wan's extreme aging) was hardly handled or explained competently.

Well that one's easy. Sun damage is what really makes people look old. Consider this trucker: http://gizmodo.com/5914862/shocking-proof-of-how-the-sun-makes-you-age-prematurely and consider those 90-year old monks who spend all day meditating, never going outside, and look like they're in their 20's. There's plenty of examples all over -- suntans are really really bad for your skin. And what does Tattooine have two of? Suns. Obi-Wan's age isn't hard to explain away, what's difficult to explain is why why more people on Tatooine don't look older, but then perhaps everyone else uses lots of sun-tan lotion.

Suns-tan lotion

That plot point (along with Obi-Wan's extreme aging) was hardly handled or explained competently.

Well that one's easy. Sun damage is what really makes people look old. Consider this trucker: http://gizmodo.com/5914862/shocking-proof-of-how-the-sun-makes-you-age-prematurely and consider those 90-year old monks who spend all day meditating, never going outside, and look like they're in their 20's. There's plenty of examples all over -- suntans are really really bad for your skin. And what does Tattooine have two of? Suns. Obi-Wan's age isn't hard to explain away, what's difficult to explain is why why more people on Tatooine don't look older, but then perhaps everyone else uses lots of sun-tan lotion.

Suns-tan lotion

It's because radition from the sun can break through the epidermis layer and cause damage to the DNA, which over time will accumlimate and result in quicker biological aging, as there are two primarily limitations of age. Irriplaceable minirals that will be forever lost once it leaves the body, and DNA damage.

Hence principly an middle aged man who spends the entire time trecking through radiation rich space and lives on tattoine wilderness would probably age really badly. Keeping in mind that his only purpose for living there was to watch over Luke, I imagine he would end up spending a lot of time out there to ensure no harm came to him.

It's that or they simply got the aging wrong. In all honesty I imagine Lucas was not all that concerned about that since if he could change the actor of Obi-Wan in 4-6, he probably would have done already to repersent a younger Obi if he so desired. His biggest problem for me is that he keeps tinkering with a formula that largely worked to begin with, when really no amount of tampering can make an old movie new.

So in other words, SCIENCE!

*For example, the droid once spiked a party member's drink at a party as an experiment so he could observe his symptoms.

"Aperture Science enrichment center regulations require us to inform you that you must now leave the area, as measuring the effects of asbestos-lined promotional clothing is not part of today's presentation. Enjoy your free t-shirt."

Droids rights are non-civilians in all eras, as you have to remember that sentience is a unique trait, most droids never gain the ability to become truly free thinking. Hence for most part the general public are right, they are just property. It's hardly comparable to racisim or slavery unless your one of the droids who do gain that ability.

Try telling that to Anakin about R2.

Droids being self-aware, free-thinking beings is an interesting theme to explore. Different people will have different takes, but I think it's silly to say that organic beings would be uncaring to the plight of their droid friends. Granted certain Jedi might seem that way, but they also sense the ebb and flow of life wherever they go. And plus there are exceptions; even Yoda treats R2 like a friend.

Obi-wan was supposed to be 57 at the time of Ep4. Alec Guinness would have been 62 at the time of filming. Don't forget that in 1977 anybody over 50 would have been considered old... A hangover from the 60s "Don't trust anyone over 30".

The weathering/Aging thing works as an explanation as well. As Indy once said, it's not the age, it's the mileage.

Droids rights are non-civilians in all eras, as you have to remember that sentience is a unique trait, most droids never gain the ability to become truly free thinking. Hence for most part the general public are right, they are just property. It's hardly comparable to racisim or slavery unless your one of the droids who do gain that ability.

Try telling that to Anakin about R2.

Droids being self-aware, free-thinking beings is an interesting theme to explore. Different people will have different takes, but I think it's silly to say that organic beings would be uncaring to the plight of their droid friends. Granted certain Jedi might seem that way, but they also sense the ebb and flow of life wherever they go. And plus there are exceptions; even Yoda treats R2 like a friend.

Yeah, it all boils down to personal outlook. In the Clone Wars series, Anakin is distraught over losing R2 on a mission, whereas Obi Wan informs him, "R2 units are a dime a dozen." Even though Obi Wan is a typically very empathetic and kind person.

It makes sense. 99.9% of the galaxy will never meet or even be within 1000 miles of a jedi. But everyone heard about the droid armies and see droids all over. Jedi was just some nebulous name for some religious turncoats that were in charge of the soldiers. You could replace jedi with Battle Reverend and it wouldn't make a difference.

On the other hand, if there were superheroes with laserswords around while me dad was growing up, I'm fairly sure they'd have been in the news. I'm bloody certain he'd have told me about them.

In the real world, there'd be books and films and TV shows about them. (EDIT: And comics, and lunchboxes, and... all the other Star Wars merch.)

I think this is one of the things that bugged me most about the prequel films. The original trilogy treated the Jedi as if they were a myth. Implying they weren't well known during the Clone Wars.

Kenobi tells Luke that Lars was probably afraid Kenobi would drag Luke off on some crusade like he did with Luke's father. I'd like to have seen that - Kenobi risking the secrecy that had protected this Jedi secret society because people were suffering (and everyone paying the price for that).

Except in Star Wars you have a massive branch of the government actively seeking out and destroying/hiding (and rewriting) any information about the Jedi. As Lucas was writing a new hope it had only been 30ish years since WWII, and look how different the world had changed since the world war. At that point the world war would have already been a distant memory; you'd have whole new young families that grew up after with their own children. Now imagine the U.S. or England actively covering up or destroying photos, records, news reports, etc from WW II and those 30 years is a whole new generation that doesn't know anything about the war.

It makes sense. 99.9% of the galaxy will never meet or even be within 1000 miles of a jedi. But everyone heard about the droid armies and see droids all over. Jedi was just some nebulous name for some religious turncoats that were in charge of the soldiers. You could replace jedi with Battle Reverend and it wouldn't make a difference.

On the other hand, if there were superheroes with laserswords around while me dad was growing up, I'm fairly sure they'd have been in the news. I'm bloody certain he'd have told me about them.

In the real world, there'd be books and films and TV shows about them. (EDIT: And comics, and lunchboxes, and... all the other Star Wars merch.)

I think this is one of the things that bugged me most about the prequel films. The original trilogy treated the Jedi as if they were a myth. Implying they weren't well known during the Clone Wars.

Kenobi tells Luke that Lars was probably afraid Kenobi would drag Luke off on some crusade like he did with Luke's father. I'd like to have seen that - Kenobi risking the secrecy that had protected this Jedi secret society because people were suffering (and everyone paying the price for that).

Except in Star Wars you have a massive branch of the government actively seeking out and destroying/hiding (and rewriting) any information about the Jedi. As Lucas was writing a new hope it had only been 30ish years since WWII, and look how different the world had changed since the world war. At that point the world war would have already been a distant memory; you'd have whole new young families that grew up after with their own children. Now imagine the U.S. or England actively covering up or destroying photos, records, news reports, etc from WW II and those 30 years is a whole new generation that doesn't know anything about the war.

FANTASTIC point, man. I never looked at it that way but you're absolutely right. A lot of my players have commented that so many of my plotlines spin out of the Clone Wars, but others have countered that that's how it would be and I've tended to agree, using the argument of how different the world was after WWII. Don't know why this never occured to me before.

Except in Star Wars you have a massive branch of the government actively seeking out and destroying/hiding (and rewriting) any information about the Jedi. As Lucas was writing a new hope it had only been 30ish years since WWII, and look how different the world had changed since the world war. At that point the world war would have already been a distant memory; you'd have whole new young families that grew up after with their own children. Now imagine the U.S. or England actively covering up or destroying photos, records, news reports, etc from WW II and those 30 years is a whole new generation that doesn't know anything about the war.

I've been told that quite a bit and largely I've filed it under "the Star Wars background is shaky, ignore and move on".

Why shaky? Well 19 years* after the Jedi were declared traitors to-a-man and the Jedi Purge be g an , everyone willingly deletes their video files? Burns their books? Even those who'd met Jedi? Even those who owed their lives to Jedi?

Guys who can do stuff like fall a hundred feet and land belly first on your car without their organs squirting out of their orifices, guys who can cut off someone's hand in a bar and not have the police show up because it's "Jedi business" , guys who - while not part of any government - are put in charge of the "grand army of the republic" do not get forgotten in 19 years.

The Jedi were pretty much forgotten in the original trilogy because it made them more mysterious - this was cool.

That the prequels seemed to go out of their way to make them as famous, flashy and unforgettable as they were was just dumb.

*Luke was, Google tells me, 19 at the start of A New Hope, and was born during the same film that Order 66 was issued in (the film covered approx. nine days (yeah, that seems dubious)).

Except in Star Wars you have a massive branch of the government actively seeking out and destroying/hiding (and rewriting) any information about the Jedi. As Lucas was writing a new hope it had only been 30ish years since WWII, and look how different the world had changed since the world war. At that point the world war would have already been a distant memory; you'd have whole new young families that grew up after with their own children. Now imagine the U.S. or England actively covering up or destroying photos, records, news reports, etc from WW II and those 30 years is a whole new generation that doesn't know anything about the war.

I've been told that quite a bit and largely I've filed it under "the Star Wars background is shaky, ignore and move on".

Why shaky? Well 19 years* after the Jedi were declared traitors to-a-man and the Jedi Purge be g an , everyone willingly deletes their video files? Burns their books? Even those who'd met Jedi? Even those who owed their lives to Jedi?

Guys who can do stuff like fall a hundred feet and land belly first on your car without their organs squirting out of their orifices, guys who can cut of someone's hand in a bar and not have the police show up because it's "Jedi business" , guys who - while not part of any government - are put in charge of the "grand army of the republic" do not get forgotten in 19 years.

The Jedi were pretty much forgotten in the original trilogy because it made them more mysterious - this was cool.

That the prequels seemed to go out of their way to make them as famous, flashy and unforgettable as they were was just dumb.

*Luke was, Google tells me, 19 at the start of A New Hope, and was born during the same film that Order 66 was issued in (the film covered approx. nine days (yeah, that seems dubious)).

Let's also not forget that there are numerous species that live longer (sometimes much longer) than humans. For those species, 19 years may be considerably less than a generation.

On the same notice though, there are certain areas that just don't see any action. Tattooine for example is largely obivous to the lore of Jedi. As big as the galatic war was, there are a good number of Jedi that just were figureheads to an army at most and even in episode 4-6, there was no such thing as sith, either in the movie script or history because they had been a threat that died off 1000 years ago. Sidious was more then happy to keep that status quo going.

Afterall, Hilter rewrote german history in just 6 years and raised an entire generation to worship him. It's not inconcieveable that sidious could do that in the space of 19 years, because anyone who spoke out wouldn't last for long without huge poltical pressence. Hence why Abberdien was gone forever.

Needless to say, the Droid war is probably much more remembered then the Jedi war, the issue is, in the orignal movies it was simply called the "Clone Wars" started by a planet with a entire race of clones, orignally Lando was meant to be one of those clones.

So yeah, just best to tally it up to inconsistancy, though history has a tendency to create it's own inconsistancys as it goes along.

On the same notice though, there are certain areas that just don't see any action. Tattooine for example is largely obivous to the lore of Jedi. As big as the galatic war was, there are a good number of Jedi that just were figureheads to an army at most and even in episode 4-6, there was no such thing as sith, either in the movie script or history because they had been a threat that died off 1000 years ago. Sidious was more then happy to keep that status quo going.

Afterall, Hilter rewrote german history in just 6 years and raised an entire generation to worship him. It's not inconcieveable that sidious could do that in the space of 19 years, because anyone who spoke out wouldn't last for long without huge poltical pressence. Hence why Abberdien was gone forever.

I feel the need to point out that, even on Tatooine, Watto and Anakin both knew what Jedi were. These were not scholars by any stretch of the imagination, so saying that the lore of the Jedi didn't reach Tatooine is false. Further, by being so remote, it's likely that the amount of New Order propaganda reaching Tatooine is proportionately less too.

The Nazi party is a good analogy for the Empire (as intended), but their effect on German history isn't comparable. The Nazi propaganda machine had a much easier job than the Empire would have had.

I'll summarise, but I gotta stop banging the drum on this one because repetition won't help anyone.

1. The superheroic swordsmen of the prequels are unforgettable
2. As communications technology becomes more widespread, it becomes harder and harder to rewrite history - by the time you have FTL ships it should become impossible

If you disagree with these points, fair enough. If you can't show me why this points are wrong, I'll remain unconvinced. Which is fine - we don't all have to agree on this or anything.

Because the movies always focused on the action in the galaxy I think we tend to forget just how vast that galaxy is. Even on our own planet there are wars going on that many of us never have a personal connection to, let alone actively take part in. On top of that there are still places you can visit and people you will meet that have no idea about these wars or other concepts like heroes or myths. They have their own but they don't know about others. Extrapolate that out to a galaxy of millions of systems and it is not inconcievable that people would be unaware of both Jedi and the war with the Seperatists.

The Nazi party is a good analogy for the Empire (as intended), but their effect on German history isn't comparable. The Nazi propaganda machine had a much easier job than the Empire would have had.

I'll summarise, but I gotta stop banging the drum on this one because repetition won't help anyone.

1. The superheroic swordsmen of the prequels are unforgettable
2. As communications technology becomes more widespread, it becomes harder and harder to rewrite history - by the time you have FTL ships it should become impossible

If you disagree with these points, fair enough. If you can't show me why this points are wrong, I'll remain unconvinced. Which is fine - we don't all have to agree on this or anything.

I'll bite.

1. You are talking about, what, a few thousand Jedi knights out of a galaxy of trillions. So, to the commoner they would be mythical at best and the chances of someone interacting with a Jedi in their lifetime is slim to none. Even if there were holovids of Jedi they would be akin to action/superhero movies to us; a fantasy. Unforgettable? Sure but only to those that directly interacted with Jedi, I believe Bail Organa is proof of that. But you are talking about a handful of people out of trillions that directly interacted with Jedi. Remember, the Jedi were not universally loved, nor accepted, by a lot of Senators. They were often seen as meddlers in Republic affairs.

2. This is not true in Star Wars. The primary means of communication in the Star Wars galaxy, the holonet, the Republic shut down and made exclusive for military use. You then have to rely on local/planetary news agencies who are usually getting 2nd hand stories since they are cut off. It has been mentioned in other RPGs, that during the Empire, if a news station broadcast a story the Empire felt was anti-Imperial, the Empire would use it's influence to redact the information. PLUS, the Empire, at the time of it's creation, was embraced by nearly everyone (the majority of the Republic) with open arms. So if your trusted government is telling you someone is bad then you believe it. Not to mention the spin machine of the Empire falsely blaming the Jedi for Imperial atrocities, etc. So, after 19 years of active suppression and elimination of pro-Jedi sentiment the message is clear: the Jedi are evil or if you don't want Stormtroopers or Inquisitors knocking on your door, stop talking about that Jedi you met that one time. PLUS, the Empire had COMPNOR, similar to the Nazi's Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, but much more vast.

One last point. A lot of interactions with Jedi were brief, I am thinking of Panaka and Typho, the Jedi helped them a lot and then the next thing you know the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic is saying the Jedi tried to pull a coup and assassinate him!? That would make anyone with a passing familiarity with the Jedi question the order and be a bit more standoffish. Years down the road, you may recall a memory of that time a Jedi helped you but it would be tinged with doubt. "Yeah I met a Jedi once, seemed like they wanted to help but then they tried to pull a coup. That's crazy."

I could go on but I feel the movies and the EU do a pretty good job of driving the point home.

Wow, I guess this thread really veered off topic eh!?

Two big points I think everybody is missing;

1. Before the Clone Wars, there was a maximum of one hundred thousand Jedi in a galaxy of trillions. Not HUNDREDS of thousands, ONE hundred thousand. For some perspective, there are 794,300 police just in the United States of a America today, and approximately one hundred thousand special forces units in all of the world militaries combined. Those special forces units are, for all intents and purposes, "Jedi"; they can do things that others can't far more impressively than the millions of police in the world, and while a lot of people have seen them in action most of us haven't. (And all this on just ONE planet compared to the tens of thousands of planets in the Republic/Empire.)

2. Who said the Jedi were forgotten? Luke lived on Tattooine, which is about as backwater of a planet as you can get. They didn't much care for stuff like historical education before the war or after, and Uncle Owen and Aunt Buru wanted to keep that information from him besides. Han Solo was young enough to where he probably wouldn't have encountered any Jedi during his travels (paritcularly not openly), and he might have considered holo-footage and other "proof" to be the same kind of "proof" we have today of UFOs (as in, in the evidence might seem overwhelming but -- as government propaganda is quick to point out -- you don't know what is and isn't fake without having been there yourself).

Meanwhile, the Rebellion uses "May the Force be With You" as a battle cry, and some of its top members knew where Obi-Wan Kenobi was hiding. Plus, the denizens of the cantina on Tattooine seemed to know not to mess with someone with a lightsaber, so it's not unreasonable to assume that at least one or two of them knew what a Jedi was. NEVER is it explicitly said anywhere in the original trilogy that the Jedi are forgotten, as a matter of fact. It's only implied that many people aren't all that familiar with them anymore, and a grand total of ONE character doesn't believe in their powers.

So yeah... not seeing the issue here.