So i have been giving this plenty of thought and I am going to lay it out to be discussed by everyone.

Basically after reading the many many threads about TB being skin armour, and people being unhappy with it, and how ineffective armour is, this is my concept for changing the system. ( and this is going to be a long post, sorry in advance.)

Currently Armour is negligible, and doesn't work how armour should work, I say this because no matter if what you get hit with you take damage regardless on whether it was penetrated or not.

So we remove TB, unless you have unnatural toughness in which case you get to remove your TB from damage taken, and UT no longer adds TB or multiplies it, it just allows you to apply your TB like TB currently works for everyone. This would make SM tough, but not immune to small arms as is often touted as being a bad problem.

Now for the Armour system.

Skills added :

Light Armour : Trained / +10 / +20 / +30

Heavy Armour : Trained / + 10 / +20 / +30

All armour types get a flat % chance to absorb a hit, the relevant skills add to the % chance.

Light Armour : Flak : Mesh : Armored Bodyglove

Heavy Armour : Light carapace : StormTrooper Carapace

Flak 33%

Mesh 33%

Armored BG 33%

Light Carapace 45%

ST Carapace 55%

The idea I have is weapon pen values add a cumulative -10 to the chance to absorb a hit per point of pen.

If the weapons pen is high enough to reduce the armour to zero AP, you do not get to roll. With the addendum that you can choose when hit by a weapon that penetrates your armour totally, to reduce the damage taken by the AP of the hit location, and then your AP is reduced to zero in that location as it has been destroyed absorbing some of the force of the hit in the process.

Talents :

Light Armour Mastery ; Reqs : Agility 50, Light Armour + 30

You wear your armour like a second skin, gaining the ability to move at full speed silently, and add one AP to all locations of any light armour worn. Once per game session you may spend a fate point to count as having rolled a 01 for your armour absorb chance on any non penetrating hit.

Heavy Armour Mastery : Reqs : Str 50, Heavy Armour +30

Due to countless hours of training in full combat load you gain the following benefits : Falling damage is reduced by 50% rounded down, you no are no longer encumbered by wearing heavy armour, no penaltys to agility when in heavy armour. Once per game you can spend a fate point to count as having rolled a 01 for your armour absorb chance on any non penetrating hit.

Armour Master : Reqs : either light or heavy armour mastery

Your ability to use your armour is unparalleled, when hit by a penetrating hit you always have a chance to absorb the hit. You always have a 25% chance to absorb any hit taken.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So! that is my basic concept, it has scope to be expanded of course, and certainly would need some testing as to its viability, but I would welcome any constructive feedback on it.

Thanks for taking the time to read it

So, essentially, make Armor into what Force Fields are right now? (Presumably, Force Fields would be better than armor in offering a save that can't be reduced, and probably a higher one too)

I like it. Of course, someone will instantly appear to point out that this adds an additional roll to combat which already has piles of rolls and takes forever, but I'd say it's a small price to pay for removing skin armor.

So, essentially, make Armor into what Force Fields are right now? (Presumably, Force Fields would be better than armor in offering a save that can't be reduced, and probably a higher one too)

I like it. Of course, someone will instantly appear to point out that this adds an additional roll to combat which already has piles of rolls and takes forever, but I'd say it's a small price to pay for removing skin armor.

Yes basically, the only other way of removing TB means importing another game systems mechanics, usually adding more wounds to everyone, this has 40K flavour though in TTyou get to save to not take damage, and that was my inspiration for attempting a solution here.

Hah! This is a lot like the armor saves of the tabeltop system. it is definitely interesting but I'm not sure if I like it . Mostly because this % system can produce some quite ridiculous things like flak armor easily stopping an insanely powerful weapon that lacks penetration. It is like you would take 10D10+45 damage but since it has Pen 0 you still have 33+% chance to take it in the face without suffering even one point of actual damage.

Hah! This is a lot like the armor saves of the tabeltop system. it is definitely interesting but I'm not sure if I like it . Mostly because this % system can produce some quite ridiculous things like flak armor easily stopping an insanely powerful weapon that lacks penetration. It is like you would take 10D10+45 damage but since it has Pen 0 you still have 33+% chance to take it in the face without suffering even one point of actual damage.

Perhaps for every 1d10 damage that a weapon does after the initial 1d10, it causes a -10%

Example:

Weapon Damages against Light Armour

1d10 = full protection from armour (33%)

2d10 = only 23% protection

3d10 = only 13% protection

4d10+ = 0% protection other than the usual APs

Weapon Damages against Heavy Armour

1d10 = full protection from armour (45%)

2d10 = only 35% protection

3d10 = only 25% protection

4d10 = only 15% protection

5d10 = only 5% protection

6d10+ = 0% protection other than the usual APs

Perhaps for every 1d10 damage that a weapon does after the initial 1d10, it causes a -10%

It still doesn't solve the problem that you can potentially shrug off extreme damage without flinching. And what about weapons with high fixed damage?

In my opinion, simply increasing both weapon damage and armor protection rate while keeping the TB "skin armor" on the same level as currently would solve the problem nicely.

I like it. Of course, someone will instantly appear to point out that this adds an additional roll to combat which already has piles of rolls and takes forever, but I'd say it's a small price to pay for removing skin armor.

The real first complaint would be talent/skill bloat, and then an extra roll.

However, I do kinda like this system to a certain extent. From a certain practical perspective, DH will always be a bloated monstrosity of a system, so what's one more such mechanic added on. Under that light, the system seems to work. I do question a couple things: how would power armors stack up here (it's not unusual for high-level, Ascension-style parties to have one or two guys stacked up in light or standard power armor), and how would force fields work?

@AtoMaki: my only concern for being able to shrug off extreme damage would come from the Armour Master talent, which always allows a 25% chance to absorb a hit. That is a bit...extreme, to say the least. But removing that, I scrolled through the Macharian Handbook and I couldn't find a weapon that was unduly affected by this mechanic. Which weapons would you be concerned about?

I like it. Of course, someone will instantly appear to point out that this adds an additional roll to combat which already has piles of rolls and takes forever, but I'd say it's a small price to pay for removing skin armor.

The real first complaint would be talent/skill bloat, and then an extra roll.

However, I do kinda like this system to a certain extent. From a certain practical perspective, DH will always be a bloated monstrosity of a system, so what's one more such mechanic added on. Under that light, the system seems to work. I do question a couple things: how would power armors stack up here (it's not unusual for high-level, Ascension-style parties to have one or two guys stacked up in light or standard power armor), and how would force fields work?

@AtoMaki: my only concern for being able to shrug off extreme damage would come from the Armour Master talent, which always allows a 25% chance to absorb a hit. That is a bit...extreme, to say the least. But removing that, I scrolled through the Macharian Handbook and I couldn't find a weapon that was unduly affected by this mechanic. Which weapons would you be concerned about?

The 25% figure is a 1 in 4 chance for people not dying to nasty guns, and it is going to be very expensive to acquire, and the game needs more defensive options added to it. it can of course be adjusted down if needed, this was purely a concept to be tested, and added because I didn't want to rework the entirety of the weapon tables, adjusting pen and + damage modifiers to adjust to zero TB.

As for power armour, I would probably scale it around the same levels ST carapace, but give it additional benefits, for example penetrating hits not destroying the section until it has taken x amount of penetrating hits.

When I get around to it, I will also add Armour customisation options just like we have for guns and gear.

@AtoMaki: my only concern for being able to shrug off extreme damage would come from the Armour Master talent, which always allows a 25% chance to absorb a hit. That is a bit...extreme, to say the least. But removing that, I scrolled through the Macharian Handbook and I couldn't find a weapon that was unduly affected by this mechanic. Which weapons would you be concerned about?

My concerns are theoretical as IIRC there are no weapons that have high damage but no Pen. It was just an example to the weird situations a percentile armor system may cause.

That logic does make a certain amount of sense, Balenorn, but it does create some oddities. Under DH2E, the Metla quality doubles the pen in short range. Should a guy in flak armor still have a 25% chance to absorb a Meltagun at short range that has a Pen of 24? The system definitely has some merit, but there are still some weird weapon issues that have to be considered.

@AtoMaki: Thinking about it, I can see your point more clearly. While the autocannon has a higher pen in DH2E, in the Macharian Handbook under DH1 rules, it deals 4d10+5 (and let's throw in a +2 for Mighty Shot) with only a Pen of 4. Average damage would be about 27 with a Pen of 4. Firing it at someone in Flak Armor with the Light Armor skill maxed out still gives him a 23% chance of completely absorbing a single shot from the autocannon. This is a somewhat extreme position, as most weapons that can deal that much damage tend to have a pen that is one to three points higher (depending on weapon types), but this example does illustrate your concerns more clearly.

That logic does make a certain amount of sense, Balenorn, but it does create some oddities. Under DH2E, the Metla quality doubles the pen in short range. Should a guy in flak armor still have a 25% chance to absorb a Meltagun at short range that has a Pen of 24? The system definitely has some merit, but there are still some weird weapon issues that have to be considered.

@AtoMaki: Thinking about it, I can see your point more clearly. While the autocannon has a higher pen in DH2E, in the Macharian Handbook under DH1 rules, it deals 4d10+5 (and let's throw in a +2 for Mighty Shot) with only a Pen of 4. Average damage would be about 27 with a Pen of 4. Firing it at someone in Flak Armor with the Light Armor skill maxed out still gives him a 23% chance of completely absorbing a single shot from the autocannon. This is a somewhat extreme position, as most weapons that can deal that much damage tend to have a pen that is one to three points higher (depending on weapon types), but this example does illustrate your concerns more clearly.

I think the idea is not so much he is in flak and has 25% chance because that does sound iffy to say the least, but as almost mystical ability to utilize the armour to avoid damage, I mean this is a fantasy game, think of it like some of the WH40k table top heroes flat unmodified save regardless of whether it is a thrown rock or a defense laser.

It is a top rank ability, with a stupid amount of exp required to get, and it still is only the same as a field that costs some Req?

As for the auto cannon, 4 pen that means any armour of 4AP or less doesnt get to absorb it, and anything above 4AP gets -40 to the roll to absorb it.

Also, another problem is that the result of the armor system is very flat: you either block the damage completely or take all of it. It has quite a gamble in it as you either suck big time or get away with it without any effect.

Also, another problem is that the result of the armor system is very flat: you either block the damage completely or take all of it. It has quite a gamble in it as you either suck big time or get away with it without any effect.

No, you can chose to destroy the armour on the hit location to remove the AP value from the damage.

And that is how armour works, it either stops the attack or it doesn't, currently it never stops damage EVER.

I do not understand your issue, you hate TB because it is unrealistic and I give you an alternative that is realistic and you are not happy with that?

This is an interesting concept, but I think we all know it's too radical a change to have any chance of being implemented by FFG .

With regard to the complaints about TB functioning like 'skin armour', I've been won over to a suggestion made in the Only War Forum :

I was thinking of applying a rule I read in the Cyberpunk 2020 book (yes, I'm that old...).

Basically, Armour can reduce damage to zero, but Toughness cannot.

So, if you have AP 5 and TB 3, and you are hit for 5 damage, you suffer nothing. If you are hit for 7 damage, you suffer at least one Wound.

This is a small enough change that it doesn't conflict severely with the focus on compatibility with the rest of the game line. The more I think about it, the more I like this idea.

think of it like some of the WH40k table top heroes flat unmodified save regardless of whether it is a thrown rock or a defense laser.

I don't know why people keep using this example, I don't remember any codexes having entries for thrown rocks as weapons.

Seriously, it's a sh*tty comparison.

think of it like some of the WH40k table top heroes flat unmodified save regardless of whether it is a thrown rock or a defense laser.

I don't know why people keep using this example, I don't remember any codexes having entries for thrown rocks as weapons.

Seriously, it's a sh*tty comparison.

Sorry what?

It highlights that the character can regardless of what he/she is being attacked by, no matter what grade of weapon it is have a flat percentile chance of avoiding it ( From weak underwhelming weapons like fists and knives, to Star ship sized lasers mounted on super heavy tank chassis) , Ragnar Blackmane had a 50% chance to avoid any attack, and that is what I was talking about.

Were you trying troll me? that is all you have to say on this entire topic? I expect better from you.

Seriously, if that was too esoteric for you to grasp, then I have been severely overestimating your intelligence.

Considering there's numerous mechanics in the game to modify or utterly invalidate saves, I really don't see your point.

Considering there's numerous mechanics in the game to modify or utterly invalidate saves, I really don't see your point.

What? are you drunk?

WTF does what you are ranting about have anything to do with the topic of this thread?

I've seen the whole 'a rock and a lasgun do the same thing' argument regarding tabletop saves come up numerous times in threads on these forums, and I guess I'm just kinda tired of seeing it because it's a really flawed, stupid little bit of hyperbole.

I've seen the whole 'a rock and a lasgun do the same thing' argument regarding tabletop saves come up numerous times in threads on these forums, and I guess I'm just kinda tired of seeing it because it's a really flawed, stupid little bit of hyperbole.

I guess if you wish to be so literal, then yes I would imagine for someone who cannot see it was just an example of a low threat attack vrs a high threat attack, then that is your issue.

Next time I will say a shot from a slug revolver with zero pen and low damage compared to a las cannon, just to keep you content.

But a lascannon DOES have pen, so it utterly invalidates weaker armours. It's abstracted as hell, sure, but acting like weapons don't have effects on saves is a little bit of a fallacious argument.

In regards to this topic; please do not bring armour/invuln/whatever saves into Dark Heresy, please don't. They're a great abstraction for low detail skirmishes like a tabletop wargame, but for an RPG they just raise way too many questions about believability, as others have already pointed out.

But a lascannon DOES have pen, so it utterly invalidates weaker armours. It's abstracted as hell, sure, but acting like weapons don't have effects on saves is a little bit of a fallacious argument.

In regards to this topic; please do not bring armour/invuln/whatever saves into Dark Heresy, please don't. They're a great abstraction for low detail skirmishes like a tabletop wargame, but for an RPG they just raise way too many questions about believability, as others have already pointed out.

What you seem to be missing is we are discussing a field effect which is NOT affected by a weapons PEN, jfc how hard was it to grasp that?

We already HAVE invulnerable saves in DH, so your entire argument is invalid. at least do me the courtesy of reading the entire thread next time, and not cherry picking the bits you want to ***** about.

I'm not so sure i like a roll or die system like in the TT in a role playing game.

As far as UT is concerned: The OW approach with a Bonus instead of a multiplier and a Weapon Quality that ignores the UT Bonus is so far the best in my eyes. Maybe we need a few more weapons with that Quality, but not that much.

It still gives you the option to bring in heavy hitters that can soak up a lot, but they are never invulnerable, especially against that certain weapon category designed to take them down.

A certain rock-paper-scissors(-lizard-Spock) mentality.

PS: And a naked Space Marine is not invulnerable to small arms fire, that has been stated and proven before.