I proposed commitment as a way to measure how closely you are following the tenents of your order/ tradition. If you want to play a Jedi but you act less like they should and more like a laser sword thug, then you don't get the benefit of being rewarded by reaching 100 commitment.

Yes, I would sooner see narrative drawbacks for it, such as the 'lightsaber thug' being distrusted and eventually outcast by the other Jedi. Just as a heavily cybered PC might have NPCs sneering that he's a 'wannabe droid'.

After all, players are gonna see that in the movies, that little use of Dark Side points eventually allowed Luke to defeat his father. Anger is an energy.

I personally feel that if a player wants to run a 'falls from grace' character like Anakin, that it should be role-played out of choice.

That said, maybe the plethora of Force Dice in F&D may need some mechanical rein on the characters,I don't know. How many will they be allowed to attain?

I think the Edge of the empire core book says a Jedi knight would be between 5-8? However, how many will be rolled at a time? There are powers that require you to spend/commit/lockdown a force die. I would suspect there will be more of those. If lightsaber use is a power, locking down a force die to get deflect and defensive qualitied on your lightsaber would tone down some force die pools.

Just the fact of Logan's attempts to try and weasel out of "what is harm?" proves that something concrete needs to be done. I really wish that wasn't the case, but there are too many players with the same mindset as Logan that it's pretty much going to be required once the floodgates are opened and the option to play truly powerful Force-users comes into play.

Yeah because thats what I was trying to do. If you can't handle Jedi in your game then just don't use them, but I happen to collect a higher caliber of player who want more out of the game than a clone of Obi-wan.

The point I was trying to make (and you keep missing) Is that words like "might" and "harm" are in their nature vague. The world is not black and white and nether are plots. All I was asking for was more leeway in how people play Jedi and less "I don't think Obi-wan would have handled it exactly that way so you get a dark side point....oh you want to argue? Now you definitely get one"

Jedi don't need to be wangled, controlled or otherwise hindered in this system as in the grand scheme of things they are not that powerful. There are inherent weaknesses in place to allow non-Jedi to work along side them. which is as it should be, great job FFG!

Beautiful take... and let me add, Donovan, that someone being perceived as 'trying to weasel out' actually makes me more sympathetic to them, not less...

I will say this though, Logan, that Donovan's point remains clear... the idea seems to be that F&D would specifically not be designed around your or Maelora's quality of player, but rather be more lowest common denominator and specifically designed on account of "the horror stories"...

My "Infinities" idea was specifically based on the same idea that HappyDaze brought up regarding the Death Star though! "The Jedi live, but the Jedi are dead..." I don't know if I've previously told you about it, Logan? (Or if you've read any of the times that I posted about it.)

Just the fact of Logan's attempts to try and weasel out of "what is harm?" proves that something concrete needs to be done. I really wish that wasn't the case, but there are too many players with the same mindset as Logan that it's pretty much going to be required once the floodgates are opened and the option to play truly powerful Force-users comes into play.

Yeah because thats what I was trying to do. If you can't handle Jedi in your game then just don't use them, but I happen to collect a higher caliber of player who want more out of the game than a clone of Obi-wan.

The point I was trying to make (and you keep missing) Is that words like "might" and "harm" are in their nature vague. The world is not black and white and nether are plots. All I was asking for was more leeway in how people play Jedi and less "I don't think Obi-wan would have handled it exactly that way so you get a dark side point....oh you want to argue? Now you definitely get one"

Jedi don't need to be wangled, controlled or otherwise hindered in this system as in the grand scheme of things they are not that powerful. There are inherent weaknesses in place to allow non-Jedi to work along side them. which is as it should be, great job FFG!

Beautiful take... and let me add, Donovan, that someone being perceived as 'trying to weasel out' actually makes me more sympathetic to them, not less...

I will say this though, Logan, that Donovan's point remains clear... the idea seems to be that F&D would specifically not be designed around your or Maelora's quality of player, but rather be more lowest common denominator and specifically designed on account of "the horror stories"...

My "Infinities" idea was specifically based on the same idea that HappyDaze brought up regarding the Death Star though! "The Jedi live, but the Jedi are dead..." I don't know if I've previously told you about it, Logan? (Or if you've read any of the times that I posted about it.)

Well, I suppose good players wouldn't need it or would simply ignore a rule they didn't like. Trying to help out those who are new to gaming with rules doesn't seem like a bad idea.

Well, I suppose good players wouldn't need it or would simply ignore a rule they didn't like. Trying to help out those who are new to gaming with rules doesn't seem like a bad idea.

That's what I was referencing with the idea of "lowest common denominator"...

Well, I suppose good players wouldn't need it or would simply ignore a rule they didn't like. Trying to help out those who are new to gaming with rules doesn't seem like a bad idea.

That's what I was referencing with the idea of "lowest common denominator"...

But you seem to be saying that it would be a bad idea. I think that this game draws a lot of new people, who haven't gamed as long as some of us. I disagree that it would be a bad idea.

No worse than Mara Jade and she was granted the rank of master.

Mara Jade was a dark sider, she was the Emperor's personal assassin. Yes she eventually became a master, but that was after changing her ways and embracing the light side.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to play a grey jedi, but, just by the nature of being grey, you're gonna be doing some dark things, otherwise you'd just be a light jedi. I think, and all the lore supports this, that there should be some repercussions for doing dark things with the force, whether it be mechanical or just purely narrative. If a character is doing lots of dark things then screw it, just make them a dark sider, it doesn't have to carry a mechanical draw-back. Even if FF implements a system that has a mechanical draw-back, then screw it, every single rule in these books are explicitly optional, ignore said draw-back.

I think the Edge of the empire core book says a Jedi knight would be between 5-8? However, how many will be rolled at a time? There are powers that require you to spend/commit/lockdown a force die. I would suspect there will be more of those. If lightsaber use is a power, locking down a force die to get deflect and defensive qualitied on your lightsaber would tone down some force die pools.

It was the beta book and was removed from further releases. But I think 7 was the absolute max. It was something like;

1- Force sensitive

2- Self-trained, padawan

3- Young Jedi Knight

4- Jedi Knight

5- Experienced Jedi Knight

6- Jedi Master, Sith Lord

7- The most powerful Force users in the Galaxy

It's possible 6 was the max and one of the Jedi Knight entries didn't exist.

I think this thread has at least shown us – if not the book itself – at least what the F&D forum will look like.

I think this thread has at least shown us – if not the book itself – at least what the F&D forum will look like.

Well... I suspect those... other recurring...annoying threads will be there too. You know, the ones that come back every single time.

Problem characters are the result of problem players and are a social problem not a game mechanic one and have nothing to do with the force. I can build a munchkin blaster user way easier than a munchkin force user. Now, I could see them putting in a mechanical system to cater to the "lowest common denominator" as it were. But why? Donate a few pages to keeping a player or group from becoming disfunctional and let the more mature gamers explore the depths of their character. It's a much better solution than having someones narrow moral code enforced on everyone.

My support for a dark side tracking system isn't because of it's use for balancing characters, I ran a dark side campaign with Saga edition and there was only one talent that was broken enough by not keeping track of the dark side that I had to ban it. They were very powerful, yes, but that was half of the fun.

I support such a system because it's a major part of the lore. If a powerful force-user is doing dubious things, they should gain a stronger alignment to the dark side. I've said this a few times and I'll say it again, a dark side point or whatever it ends up being, does not have to be a punishment for a character. It doesn't limit exploring the depths of your character but can instead emphasize their traits. A grey jedi struggling to find a balance between being a good person and the awful things he or she must do in the name of justice will almost always be more interesting than a goody two-shoes Jedi or mustache twirling evil Sith. Having a dark side mechanic can potentially make that struggle more tangible.

It's a much better solution than having someones narrow moral code enforced on everyone.

The problem is when that "someones narrow moral code" is considered canon...

I think this thread has at least shown us – if not the book itself – at least what the F&D forum will look like.

Hey now, as long as this doesn't end up like one of the Comic Book Resources threads where someone went "Cover was dull, though. So, Capullo, if you're out there: Do better on covers. I ain't afraid of you like these other little Yes-men are. I pump iron too and would say it to your face... after I ask for your autograph"... we'll be OOOOOOOOkay.

It's a much better solution than having someones narrow moral code enforced on everyone.

The problem is when that "someones narrow moral code" is considered canon...

But what is considered canon is highly debatable and fluid. It depends on what sorces you have been exposed to. Someone, like me, who only has the movies and the old republic games has a very different view than someone who has read every single novel, which is again different from someone who's deeply immersed in the RPG books. That's why I don't think it should be a character affecting mechanic. I wouldn't object to a tracking system at all, as long as there were no mechanical repercusions. Let the game handle it narritively through the story elements.

The problem with any kind of mechanic that depends on arbitration is the same one that has been around for years with alignment systems and such. Problem players and problem DMs/GMs. Either problem players try to rationalize their behavior or problem GMs try to dictate that behavior. I don't mind some help put in the book as long as it isn't conflicting. And I am not a fan of taking away characters.

Using damaging powers might cost. Powers like choke and lightning that cause injury may be only usable with dark pips with the comiserate strain cost if you are considered "light". Something to show the strain of using such abilities, but also a control so they don't try to Force lightning someone to death.

It was the beta book and was removed from further releases. But I think 7 was the absolute max. It was something like;

1- Force sensitive

2- Self-trained, padawan

3- Young Jedi Knight

4- Jedi Knight

5- Experienced Jedi Knight

6- Jedi Master, Sith Lord

7- The most powerful Force users in the Galaxy

It's possible 6 was the max and one of the Jedi Knight entries didn't exist.

Those numbers, if they reintroduce them in F&D where a reference. They used another word in each rank to determine the Force potential name, and those ranks (Jedi Knight, Padawan) where a guide to say what probably would be the Rating for someone like that.

I didn't remember the names but as a example, someone with Force Rating 4 has a Formidable Force Rating. The list also mentions that a common Jedi Knight uses to have a Rank 4 Formidable Force Ratio.

Probably not all Knights have the same potential just for become Knights or Masters.

I have to say that I liked a lot that table

The problem with any kind of mechanic that depends on arbitration is the same one that has been around for years with alignment systems and such. Problem players and problem DMs/GMs. Either problem players try to rationalize their behavior or problem GMs try to dictate that behavior. I don't mind some help put in the book as long as it isn't conflicting. And I am not a fan of taking away characters.

Force Ratings

Rating Magnitude Examples

0 No affinity Common populace

1 Sensitive Jedi Initiate

2 Tenuous A self-taught exile, Padawan

3 Moderate A young Jedi Knight

4 Strong A well-trained Jedi Knight

5 Potent A veteran Jedi Knight

6 Formidable Jedi master, Sith Lord

7 Legendary The most truly heroic Jedi or the most villainous Sith Lords

This is why I think Force careers will give a starting Force Rating of 2. They should have a little more oomph with the Force for having a Force career over some unispec.

It's a much better solution than having someones narrow moral code enforced on everyone.

The problem is when that "someones narrow moral code" is considered canon...

But what is considered canon is highly debatable and fluid. It depends on what sorces you have been exposed to. Someone, like me, who only has the movies and the old republic games has a very different view than someone who has read every single novel, which is again different from someone who's deeply immersed in the RPG books. That's why I don't think it should be a character affecting mechanic. I wouldn't object to a tracking system at all, as long as there were no mechanical repercusions. Let the game handle it narritively through the story elements.

Actually, the canon is pretty clearly laid out, if one bothers to take the time to do a bit of research into the matter.

Prior to the announcement of the "story team", the canon level was pretty clear:

G-level: Anything from the movies, direct statements by Lucas, the novelizations of the movies, and the radio dramas of the original trilogy.

T-level: Stuff from the Clone Wars TV series and the possible live-action TV series that was proposed.

C-level: The bulk of the EU that doesn't directly contradict the two prior levels.

S-level: Used or ignored by authors as needed, and comprises a lot of the older material, such as the Marvel comic series

N-level: Not canon; generally "What If?" types of stories and any older material that directly contradicts one of the higher levels of canon.

Go to Wookieepedia, search using the word "canon", and you'll get a link to the article that pretty much spells out the existing system. Other people have already done the heavy lifting in terms of researching and compiling this stuff, so the only reason to not get informed about this is simply one of laziness.

As for the Force and "enforcing someone else's morality"... you've pretty much got G-level cannon giving a pretty good guideline of what good and evil is where the Force is concerned (note his remarks on what "bringing balance to the Force" actually meant in contrast to all the fan wankery that got tossed around). In other words, the guy that created the setting has laid out the basic structure of how the Force operates in this setting. Whether someone likes it or not on a personal level is pretty **** irrelevant. It'd be very much like telling Jay Little that a particular part of this game's dice mechanics don't operate the way he says it does.

For those in the camp that thinking Force-users won't be that much more powerful than muggles, take another look at those Force Power trees, and then consider the effect that can be had once those various upgrades are purchased and the Force-user is rolling enough Force Dice that they're assured of the ability to activate the majority of them. During the EotE Beta, an example was made of the Move power being able to one shot a major villain like Boba Fett with a Silhouette 2 object. With Force & Destiny and the option to have Force Ratings above a 4 (particularly if they start with Force Rating 2 as mouthymerc suggests), the door is opened much sooner for Force-users to be able to dominate encounters if they are allowed to simply use their powers willy-nilly. The D6 system had the very same issue, with Force-users starting of as "no big deal" until they became the dominant force in the game simply because they could do all sorts of things with the Force that mundanes couldn't hope to match. As things stand, the only real balance to a Force-user's power is the XP costs of buying the various powers and upgrades and being limited to Force Rating 2 (3 if AoR's Force-Sensitive Emergent is available), and the XP gate only lasts for so long, as the d6 system demonstrated. Sadly, given multiple player antics and utter GM tyranny, as demonstrated by the numerous instances of Paladin Screw-Jobs throughout D&D's history, there's going to need to be some form of mechanical means to gauge just how far down the dark path a PC has gone. Otherwise, you run the high risk of the game breaking down as player and GM wind up bickering over whether that player's character has fallen to the dark side, or even committed an evil action; I wouldn't be surprised if there were folks who thought Superman did a heroic deed in the example I listed a couple pages back.

What the ultimate consequence of falling to the dark side will be, that I don't know. I think taking away the character is a bit extreme, but that's how WEG and Saga Edition handled it, wanting the game to focus on the PCs as heroes instead of the PCs as remorseless monsters. Again, the general tone that FFG seems to be pushing is much the same; even if EotE is just "Firefly with stromtroopers," you didn't see the crew of the Serenity routinely commit horrible acts. Jayne was the Token Evil team member, and even he had limits on what he'd do (yeah, he sold out Simon and River, but that was before he found what the Alliance had done to River, and he certainly wasn't shy about making amends for that action, even before Mal put him in the airlock). But there should be something in the system to provide some degree of mechanical reinforcement that going evil is not a good thing, and that certain actions are going to push you closer to the dark side no matter what the intent behind them was.

This is why I think Force careers will give a starting Force Rating of 2. They should have a little more oomph with the Force for having a Force career over some unispec.

Actually, even with beginning at Force Rating 1, the F&D characters would already have a head start over those relying on either the Exile or Emergent to become Force-sensitive. That head start is simply not having to pay 20 XP out of their starting budget to purchase the universal specialization to get that Force Rating 1, as they'd get it automatically from their starting in-career specialization, which in turn gives them more XP to be used towards raising a Characteristic or purchasing skill ranks, talents, or Force powers.

In the grand scheme of a character's career, 20 XP may not seem like a lot, but for a starting PC, that extra 20 XP can make quite a difference in how capable a character is when the campaign starts. Having played a Force-user that needed to buy a universal spec to become a Force-user, I'd have killed (not literally) to be able to pocket that 20 XP and spend on something other than purchasing that universal spec, and I'm sure anyone else that's played a Force-user under the current set-up would feel very much the same.

Actually, the canon is pretty clearly laid out, if one bothers to take the time to do a bit of research into the matter.

Prior to the announcement of the "story team", the canon level was pretty clear:

G-level: Anything from the movies, direct statements by Lucas, the novelizations of the movies, and the radio dramas of the original trilogy.

T-level: Stuff from the Clone Wars TV series and the possible live-action TV series that was proposed.

C-level: The bulk of the EU that doesn't directly contradict the two prior levels.

S-level: Used or ignored by authors as needed, and comprises a lot of the older material, such as the Marvel comic series

N-level: Not canon; generally "What If?" types of stories and any older material that directly contradicts one of the higher levels of canon.

But how many people are going to know about that? I'd put that rating scale in the die-hard fan knowledge area. I consider myself an avid star wars fan and I've never heard of it. I've never heard of anyone mention it until now. It's certainly not in any of FFGs or WotC's books that I've read.

You have to realize, that you are a minority in your star wars knowledge. The majority (70%-90% IMO) are coming into this game with just the movies and maybe a few extra books and/or video games. So, I'd say that no, the cannon is not clearly laid out.

From my experience, the mechanical means are the Paladin screw-jobs. It doesn't matter if the GM just says you commited an evil act and loose your paladin hood or if they tell you to take 10 points on the evil-o-meter and you loose your paladin hood. Your still basing a mechanical effect on the GMs perception of what is evil or not. If you are using palaidn screw-jobs to refer to someone playing a sociopathic paladin with no repercussions, then that falls right back into a social problem between the player and GM and no amount of rules will fix it.

I don't want to see a hard, character affecting mechanic in the books as the default, but I would be ok with it being an optional rule. And having a good page or two on different interpretations of how much gray is between the light and dark for a group to choose would be awesome too. That way we can all play what and how we want.

From my experience, the mechanical means are the Paladin screw-jobs. It doesn't matter if the GM just says you commited an evil act and loose your paladin hood or if they tell you to take 10 points on the evil-o-meter and you loose your paladin hood. Your still basing a mechanical effect on the GMs perception of what is evil or not. If you are using palaidn screw-jobs to refer to someone playing a sociopathic paladin with no repercussions, then that falls right back into a social problem between the player and GM and no amount of rules will fix it.

I don't want to see a hard, character affecting mechanic in the books as the default, but I would be ok with it being an optional rule. And having a good page or two on different interpretations of how much gray is between the light and dark for a group to choose would be awesome too. That way we can all play what and how we want.

I think in here we're seeing the fundamental disagreement, boldfaced by myself...

This is why I think Force careers will give a starting Force Rating of 2. They should have a little more oomph with the Force for having a Force career over some unispec.

Actually, even with beginning at Force Rating 1, the F&D characters would already have a head start over those relying on either the Exile or Emergent to become Force-sensitive. That head start is simply not having to pay 20 XP out of their starting budget to purchase the universal specialization to get that Force Rating 1, as they'd get it automatically from their starting in-career specialization, which in turn gives them more XP to be used towards raising a Characteristic or purchasing skill ranks, talents, or Force powers.

In the grand scheme of a character's career, 20 XP may not seem like a lot, but for a starting PC, that extra 20 XP can make quite a difference in how capable a character is when the campaign starts. Having played a Force-user that needed to buy a universal spec to become a Force-user, I'd have killed (not literally) to be able to pocket that 20 XP and spend on something other than purchasing that universal spec, and I'm sure anyone else that's played a Force-user under the current set-up would feel very much the same.

If you're using a F&D career and specialization (presumably) your character's main focus is going to be "being a Jedi/Force User/whatever", whereas if you're playing as a Smuggler from EotE or an Ace from AoR, that's your main focus. Buying into a Force Sensitive Exile or Emergent as a second specialization means that in mechanical and roleplay terms alike that being Force Sensitive is a secondary thing. You're a Pilot that happens to be Force Sensitive, or a Politico that happens to be Force Sensitive. Of course a Jedi Sentinal or a Dathomir Witch or a Grey Paladin or whatever ends up in F&D is going to have a "head start" on being a force user. It would be silly if they didn't.

Six force rating?! Can you imagine how much xp that's going to take? Even without force powers we are surely into the thousands. With that much xp I could make an Ori'ramikad death machine! I would grab the sharpshooter spec just for the increased range bands in case I came across someone with a lightsaber.

And the wound threshold! You would be leaning close to 40 wounds by that point. Grab armor master, some ranks in enduring and some Beskar and you will be able to laugh at a lightsabers attempts to kill you. But even without cortosis your soak is going to be closing on ten, so what would breach really matter? Thats if you let it hit you. That deep in the trees you could have six or more ranks in dodge and the strain to back it up

Between deadly accuracy, true aim, sniper shot, and stacks of lethal blows, your shots are going to hit harder and from farther and that first crit is going to 40 or more stacked on top of it.

Yep Jedi are going to be so OP they break the game

I can show you what force and destiny will look like.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-trWT6ZP3jUg/UA_kndW_ElI/AAAAAAAAAYA/HmtQ9skWYtY/s1600/rainbow-unicorn.jpg