I'm guessing it'll be a PC usable power but it'll be a top tier one and it will have "Destiny" implications (F&D's likely version of Obligation).

Samophlange,

Let's be honest, the Jedi are going to be the biggest draw for this book, bar none. The other Force Traditions are nice for the EU fans, but when it comes to Star Wars, you're pretty much looking at Jedi first and foremost, with Sith coming in second thanks to the prequels (regardless of what one might think of their quality). Mouthymerc and I were just speculating on what some of the possible specializations might be should FFG opt to go the route of making the Consular, Guardian, and Sentinel into separate careers. As much as I'd love to see a plethora of Force Traditions get their own specializations in the core rulebook, FFG is going to go with what sells more books, and multiple Jedi careers and specializations will have more draw than specs for Force Traditions that most folks probably have never heard about.

As for lightsaber usage, all that's really needed are some defensive talents to cover things like blaster deflection, and those are talents that can easily be provided to not only the Jedi specializations, but also some of the Sith specs (if any are included) as well as the Jensaarai specialization. In fact, I'd suspect the Jensaarai would be a mix of lightsaber-based combat talents but also including the Armor Master and Improved Armor Master talents as well. I've managed to come up with a pretty decent talent that covers blaster deflection, and Awayputyrwpn has his own version (though they're pretty similar due to using competitive checks as the basis for the talent), and it'd be very easy to transplant FFG's own take on such a talent from whichever Jedi specs have it to the Jensaarai.

Another point on the "Force Rating 1 provided by specializations, not careers" is that FFG is looking at F&D as being the third part of a greater system, much like Return of the King was the third part of the Lord of the Rings trilogy (yes, I know that LotR is really just one book according to the Tolkien purists, but it's been marketed as a trilogy to the masses since it was published, so deal with it). Again, you can't change your character's career, and there are bound to be EotE and AoR PCs that will want to branch out into various F&D specializations, so it makes zero sense to screw those PCs out of getting Force Rating 1 because they didn't select a F&D career. FFG's pretty big on trying to avoid deliberately screwing the PCs over, so I'd count that as a major strike against the "gain FR 1 from career" school of thought.

I think all the specs in F&D will include the verbage that FSEx and FSEm both have. "You gain Force Rating 1 when you take this spec unless you already have a Force Rating of 1 or more." So characters taking a Jedi spec initially will gain that Force Rating if they don't already have it. Beyond that, I think the Force careers will start characters with Force Rating 2.

I think all the specs in F&D will include the verbage that FSEx and FSEm both have. "You gain Force Rating 1 when you take this spec unless you already have a Force Rating of 1 or more." So characters taking a Jedi spec initially will gain that Force Rating if they don't already have it. Beyond that, I think the Force careers will start characters with Force Rating 2.

I'm not convinced on having PCs from F&D start with Force Rating 2. The only reason it seems that folks assume that is the Force Rating chart from the EotE Beta that said Force Rating 2 was either an experienced F/S Exile or a Jedi Padawan (which is generally the skill bracket that the Jedi Order let students leave the temple, though still under at least nominal adult supervision from their master).

If anything, I suspect that increasing one's Force Rating will be a bit easier for F&D PCs, since those careers and specs reflect someone that's actually trained in the Force, to the point that it may even be possible to hit Force Rating 3 just from your initial specialization. So you may not start out much more capable than a F/S Exile or F/S Emergent, but you'd outpace them in terms of power before long, particularly since you didn't have to shell out any additional XP to get your Force Rating 1 like they had to.

From my own observations, a Force Rating of 2 is a significant leap in power for a Force-user, as they are no longer as reliant upon converting Dark Side points into usable Force Points to get at least the basic effect, which for powers like Enhance (the bulk of the Control Upgrades simply add more skills to what gets affected) or Move (can still attack or disarm with just 1 FP if you've bought the appropriate Control Upgrades) is pretty potent. This also means the Force-user won't have to keep flipping the party's Destiny Points, which is another means of "balance" for inexperienced Force-users in comparison to PC mundanes.

Don't know if this has been brought up, and I probably won't get it, but I'd like to see the various lightsaber form as talents.

Like the Soresu Talent giving you something defensive against ranged attacked. If they have different Jedi specializations, the forms could be split between then, so you'd have to take all the specs to be a lightsaber master.

Or a group of talents, Lightsaber Form I-V or something, and each talent you have to choose a form. This way no one person can know all forms.

Don't know if this has been brought up, and I probably won't get it, but I'd like to see the various lightsaber form as talents.

Like the Soresu Talent giving you something defensive against ranged attacked. If they have different Jedi specializations, the forms could be split between then, so you'd have to take all the specs to be a lightsaber master.

Or a group of talents, Lightsaber Form I-V or something, and each talent you have to choose a form. This way no one person can know all forms.

Based on the way they've essentially given a tree to each Force power, I kind of think that's precisely what they'll do with the light saber disciplines as well. I don't expect Jedi careers actually, I think the trees will be like exile and emergent probably somewhat generic with the addition of skills to the trees, and then each player will really personalize their Jedi by selecting Force power trees and light saber trees. Just my opinion.

Truthbetold I'd prefer other options that weren't "explicitly" based on the forms (because I honestly believe that the idea of the Forms is an utter crock to begin with, and talents explicitly tied to a form pay excessive deference to the idea of the Forms...

Rather, something along the lines of -- or outright reusing some of -- the talents in EotE and AoR, with the FaD text instead suggesting specific talents to people who want to model their characters after the Forms.

Don't know if this has been brought up, and I probably won't get it, but I'd like to see the various lightsaber form as talents.

Like the Soresu Talent giving you something defensive against ranged attacked. If they have different Jedi specializations, the forms could be split between then, so you'd have to take all the specs to be a lightsaber master.

Or a group of talents, Lightsaber Form I-V or something, and each talent you have to choose a form. This way no one person can know all forms.

I don't think this will be terribly likely, given that the post-Endor EU seems to spell out Luke's unwillingness to train his students in those forms. Partly because of the lack of information being available, partly because it doesn't scan with his goals on training a new generation of Jedi, and partly because I think such rules would clutter up the book.

(Don't quote me on that, though. My command of EU knowledge, particularly Jedi EU knowledge, is only passable at best.)

Some of the talents might be named after the different forms, but I don't think they'll be the basis of the talent trees themselves. Now, if FFG were to release a Clone Wars-era sourcebook, then I might expect it.

Plus of course, we also had the "fast style"/"medium style"/"strong style" concepts from those Jedi Academy games... which I actually found way more palatable than the Forms. Speaking of which, more-and-more trappings of prequel-era Jedi upon the New Jedi Order versus the more hard-and-fast take of the early years of the Skywalker-led rebuilding is basically one of the things I hold most against the EU with regards to the post-Endor Jedi.

Even though FFG is taking their inspiration from the original trilogy, it is unlikely they will limit themselves to "What Luke can do" in F&D. It is much more likely they will give recognizable options like the guardian/consular/sentinel careers and let you decide whether more or less is right for you. Just because Luke didn't start out as a Jedi doesn't mean they will drop such options or homogenize them. Those careers have been quantified a great deal at this stage and are very recognizable. Why reinvent the wheel? They fit the design of the game and are names that are already recognizable.

Those careers have been quantified a great deal at this stage and are very recognizable. Why reinvent the wheel? They fit the design of the game and are names that are already recognizable.

I would argue those careers were, in fact, re-inventing the wheel themselves, knowing what we did about Jedi before the Prequels came out.

However, I will accede the point that the Guardian/Consular/Sentinel careers might appear in some form, since the book is supposed to be about Jedi who survived Order 66 and were driven into hiding. I imagine they might be specializations within a career based on Old Republic Jedi who survived, with another Career or two focused on the new era Jedi trained by Luke.

However, I will accede the point that the Guardian/Consular/Sentinel careers might appear in some form, since the book is supposed to be about Jedi who survived Order 66 and were driven into hiding. I imagine they might be specializations within a career based on Old Republic Jedi who survived, with another Career or two focused on the new era Jedi trained by Luke.

Again, to be clear, a career based on the "birth-trained" Jedi is the only way that a Jedi career makes sense to me, because "the crunchy bits" would be in specializations (which can be bought into by characters who've already had adventures enough to have had a non-Jedi career), but if any of them are career specializations for the Jedi, then of course such a Jedi PC would actually be getting one of them for free.

Something to consider on the idea of Lightsaber Forms is that in the scale of the FFG "structured" narrative combat system the difference between any of the forms wouldn't be significant enough to make much of a difference mechanically. This is why we don't see Brawling and SpaceFu or any of a myriad of potential types of martial arts, they just aren't different enough to require a different skill at this scale. Now I can see individual Talents that will cover offensive or defensive techniques that could be attributed to a "form" (and even named as such if they so chose) but I don't see them breaking out forms as more than that.

The WEG SW had all these Lightsaber forms available for combat and it was interesting to read but in practice it just bogged sh*t down, so I'd be happy if it was left to a few Talents and fluff.

Something to consider on the idea of Lightsaber Forms is that in the scale of the FFG "structured" narrative combat system the difference between any of the forms wouldn't be significant enough to make much of a difference mechanically. This is why we don't see Brawling and SpaceFu or any of a myriad of potential types of martial arts, they just aren't different enough to require a different skill at this scale. Now I can see individual Talents that will cover offensive or defensive techniques that could be attributed to a "form" (and even named as such if they so chose) but I don't see them breaking out forms as more than that.

The WEG SW had all these Lightsaber forms available for combat and it was interesting to read but in practice it just bogged sh*t down, so I'd be happy if it was left to a few Talents and fluff.

I agreed with you up until they released the "Pin" talent in archaeologist. No I am far less sure. It seems that they are building martial arts talents for some reason. I suspect that reason will be some sort of martial artist.

The WEG SW had all these Lightsaber forms available for combat and it was interesting to read but in practice it just bogged sh*t down

Pretty much what I think of the Forms themselves.

The more I think about it, the more I think it will be a unispec. They could do a spec that could incorporate a strong path and an agile path. Talents could be named for forms and/or maneuvers associated with them.

The more I think about it, the more I think it will be a unispec. They could do a spec that could incorporate a strong path and an agile path. Talents could be named for forms and/or maneuvers associated with them.

DarthGM did this for his Edge of the Jedi stuff. It works really well and lightsaber combat is a lot of fun. My wife and I have built several characters all of which are fun to play.

I agreed with you up until they released the "Pin" talent in archaeologist. No I am far less sure. It seems that they are building martial arts talents for some reason. I suspect that reason will be some sort of martial artist.

I haven't seen this yet so I can't comment on it specifically. I'm not so sure I mind individual Talents unless they start taking over combat by forcing you to take a Talent to do an action. I've seen (I can't remember the name off hand) that Talent that allows you to knock someone down while doing damage instead of a normal Talent-less Knockdown without damage and I'm fine with this kind of thing. If this Pin action is like that it's okay by me.

I have found that unless RPG designers are very careful they can fall into the same sort of Michael Bay Baysplosions! kind of thing when developing new abilities. New stuff must be bigger and badder than ever before. FFG has been pretty good at avoiding this so far with AoR and I hope F&D will be of the same philosophy but I think we will inevitably see some one-upmanship in the supplementary materials. I can live with that because the Core RAW is the important part, the rest is very much optional.

Donovan,

I think it boils down to me having a different idea of when it comes to Jedi. I dont feel that a Jedi career is a good idea. I am hoping that they do away with the guardian, consular and sentinel crap. I never liked it. All Jedi were mediators, not just the consulars. Guardians were the great warriors, yet Yoda says that wars don't make one great. It felt a very tacked on classification that was created for the d20 version (except for the sentinel, that came from the abysmal kotor). Why would you send to warriors to settle a dispute? Doesn't work for me.

As to additional force traditions and them being EU, well, the whole rpg is EU. I do agree Jedi will be a big focus, but I hope Jedi won't be a career. Jedi are in hiding and rare.

I feel that the things that make up the cire of what Jedi are can be distilled diwn to: Force use, lightsaber use and a philosophy. The first two are not exclusive, the last is and it is, I honestly feel, a purely roleplaying part.

I hoping we will get a game that is less about the knights in hiding skulking around and more about those knights trying to keep their dying tradition alive by training the next generation of pseudo Jedi.

As to career vs specialty providing the initial force rating one, perhaps all force using specializations will be universal.

My thought is this game will be built for characters from different walks of life discovering their force potential and going from there. Perhaps none of the careers will be geared specifically towards particilar force groups.

As a sidenote: edge of the empire gave groups a ship, age of rebellion expanded on that by having a base as an option. Perhaps force and destiny will provide neither and offer up a mentor to teach these characters.

There will need to be Jedi and Force careers as people will want to build Jedi from the ground up at that point. This isbnot a book about becoming a Jedi the "Luke Skywalker" way. This is a book about Force using character. Doing the whole thing with with unispecs like the two we have would mean FFg is predicating it on the basis that you have bought one of the previous core books. This goes against their design intent of making each book a stand alone core book. There will be careers. How they shake out remains to be seen.

There will need to be Jedi and Force careers as people will want to build Jedi from the ground up at that point. This isbnot a book about becoming a Jedi the "Luke Skywalker" way. This is a book about Force using character. Doing the whole thing with with unispecs like the two we have would mean FFg is predicating it on the basis that you have bought one of the previous core books. This goes against their design intent of making each book a stand alone core book. There will be careers. How they shake out remains to be seen.

Maybe, but the game(s) are based on the Rebellion Era Force users and they've been pretty good about handling the Force as we see it in the films (IV, V, VI). Plus even though there are some survivors of Order 66 out there to learn from the more codified training doesn't really start (as far as I'm aware) until 20 or so years later with the New Jedi Order. So I stick by my guess that Force users in F&D will be somewhat generic as far as careers go with the flavour being in the Specializations and Talents. Then later we'll get more detailed other career stuff etc. choices after the Ep. 7.

If we see any mention of the Lightsaber Forms at all, I suspect it will be as names of talents rather than each Form being a separate specialization or power. Not unlike how WotC initially handled the Forms in Saga Edition, with each one being a prestige class talent that provided a specific benefit. Coincidentally, there was an excellent series of Fragments from the Rim during tail end of the Saga Edition version of the Order 66 podcast that discussed how to build a Jedi PC to be in tune with a given Form, ranging from what talents, feats, and even Force Powers to select to emulate a true 'master' of a given Form.

I also think DarthGM did a pretty good job with taking the notion Fast/Medium/Strong Styles and applying it to the various Classical Forms in his Edge of the Jedi fan supplement, with Ataru/Soresu/Makashi = Fast, Shii-Cho/Niman/Jar'kai = Medium, and Shien/Djem So/Juyo = Strong (Vaapad got left out as that's pretty much a Mace Windu creation that died with him). So for folks that want the Forms for their games, it's a viable option worth checking out. Granted, it will undoubtedly need some tweaking once Phil gets his hands on the Force & Destiny Beta, but it might be a viable house rule option.

But seeing as how that sort of information was "lost" until well after Luke had established the New Jedi Order, if such things do get covered in extensive detail, I'd suspect it'd be in a sourcebook down the line rather than in the corebook.

Now I can see individual Talents that will cover offensive or defensive techniques that could be attributed to a "form" (and even named as such if they so chose) but I don't see them breaking out forms as more than that.

IF they incorporate forms, this is how I'd expect to see one; just a name and some "when wielding a lightsaber, do this" description.

If they even do Jedi specs, I expect to only see two: Padawan and Knight. They're more recognizable than the "classic" three.

Just because they are taking their inspiration from the original trilogy doesn't mean they are slaves to it. It doesn't matter when Jedi trainiing was codified after Yavin or whatever. They may go the generic route with careers and specs. I doubt it though. The other games have been light on Force use because of their themes. This is going to be a book on Force use. No point in going generic or half way. This is going to be your goto book to play Force users, so they will at least do Jedi pretty well along with some popular Force traditions. Characters progressing through all three books have the option to expand into Force specs from F&D, much like Luke's journey. Others will want Force careers from the getgo once it comes out. Why go a generic route when you have popular recognizable options for careers and specs right now?

I do feel that a Jedi career would be a horrible design move - due to the fact that unless you create your character in Force & Destiny, you can't be a Jedi. While the game is designed primarily as a stand alone, they do want to have that cross over. Making careers base on Jedi means you can never add that to your character sheet. Yes, you can take the specialties, but never the career. Some people will NEED to have Jedi written on your character. Also, there is so much EU material that has characters from other walks of life (from Mercenaries and other force using traditions) becoming Jedi.

The reason I recommend generic is that it allows for more customization for characters - and when I say generic, I mean no Jedi, Sith, or Witch of Dathomir Career. We can have a warrior type, a more force power or sorcerer type etc. With a more generic (or less codified) design scheme, you can create far more, whether known force traditions or ones the GM's and Players come up with. Also, a Jedi career could present some problems. Say the craptacular Guardian, Consular and Sentinel get used as Specialties for a Jedi Career, well if they do a career book for Jedi (such as the Dangerous Covenants, and Enter the Unkown) what will they add? Will they add pilot? Jedi Librarian? Will they be making force using versions of existing specialties? The librarian is the same as scholar except it gives force rating 1 at creation?

I think we will get repeated specializations, much as we saw with Age of Rebellion reusing some of the specializations from Edge of the Empire. There are many examples of force using pilots, mercenary soldiers, etc in the EU. Why recreate these for the new book when you can reuse them - and if you reuse them how do you reconcile that the pilot specializations doesn't provide force rating 1 where the other specializations for a career may?

This means I expect that we will see universal specializations continue and that we get reprints of the Force Sensitive Exile and Force Sensitive Emergent, along with several new universal. I still maintain that a Jedi is best represented less by a class, and by the Force & Destiny equivalent to obligation and duty - which I refer to as Commitment. This way a character progressing through all three RPG's, could conceivably have an Obligation such as a Bounty, A Duty to aid the Rebellion, and also a Commitment to the Jedi path. Offers a lot of interesting options, much like Luke abandonging his training to help save Han and Leia.