Yes. Jedi should be interesting characters THAT use the Force and lightsabers, not BECAUSE they use the Force and lightsabers.

Like I say, I think they should make a game Jedi fanboys will love, not one that people who find Jedi fanboys really annoying won't hate as much as they would if they made a game Jedi fanboys would love.

I have a question; ErikB.

You seem to want to play powerful seasoned force users, such as Kyle Katarn, Starkiller, or a number of the Jedi from the prequel trilogy, correct?

I'm a little new to this system, but couldn't you solve your problem by just starting your campaign at a higher level? Between Ways of the Force and the available printed books, all the basic powers seem to be covered. If you start the game with enough Exp to be like 25% to 1/3 the way through like, 3 force power trees, would that not suit your needs?

Edge of the Empire is designed to start at a lower power level, sure, but if you just had all the players start at a higher power level (more exp, and maybe give the players some restrictions on how much exp can be dumped into a single area), would you not be able to play the sort of over the top action jedi that you're interested in? If not, what would be missing?

Then the non-jedi would be able to keep up, because they's all be playing boba-fett instead of typical rebel fighter pilots.

Yes. Jedi should be interesting characters THAT use the Force and lightsabers, not BECAUSE they use the Force and lightsabers.

Like I say, I think they should make a game Jedi fanboys will love, not one that people who find Jedi fanboys really annoying won't hate as much as they would if they made a game Jedi fanboys would love.

I have a question; ErikB.

You seem to want to play powerful seasoned force users, such as Kyle Katarn, Starkiller, or a number of the Jedi from the prequel trilogy, correct?

I'm a little new to this system, but couldn't you solve your problem by just starting your campaign at a higher level? Between Ways of the Force and the available printed books, all the basic powers seem to be covered. If you start the game with enough Exp to be like 25% to 1/3 the way through like, 3 force power trees, would that not suit your needs?

Edge of the Empire is designed to start at a lower power level, sure, but if you just had all the players start at a higher power level (more exp, and maybe give the players some restrictions on how much exp can be dumped into a single area), would you not be able to play the sort of over the top action jedi that you're interested in? If not, what would be missing?

Then the non-jedi would be able to keep up, because they's all be playing boba-fett instead of typical rebel fighter pilots.

Starting at a higher XP does allow for much of what I would be looking at in high-power Jedi action. There would still need to be a few things added (lightsaber-specific talents, trees for Force-based Careers, some additional Force powers, etc.), but I really hope that the starting Jedi is equal in capability to the starting Bounty Hunter. Many of the Jedi we see on film are not super (look how many died on Geonosis or when the Temple was attacked), but the focal characters are exceptional whether Jedi or not.

I will say though that if this is the intent, I'd like there to be a faster way to make a higher level character than to ask a player to plop down 750 XP at character creation. Some games offer quick start packages that can be taken to represent such characters, and it wouldn't hurt if such was available for this game too.

It's so cute when the noobs think they can have a conversation with the jester.

750 xp goes faster than you think, even for a force user.

So the Empire's trapped inside with psychopathic killer willing to do any criminal act? I've never thought of it that way. Kind of goes against your normal, altruistic viewpoint that the Rebels are the good guys doesn't it? Makes them out to be more like terrorists.

To most of the people living in the empire, the Rebels ARE terrorists. Unless you had a direct run in with Vader or the Emperor, or happened to be on a planet they destroyed to make a point/as retribution for supporting anti-government extremists, things weren't so bad living under the empire.

There were almost no wars, the police were cracking down on crime, and you probably thought you lived in a really stable galactic empire. People start becoming storm troopers because they want to make the galaxy a better place, help make things safer for their families, etc. Unlike with the republic, who would squabble and sit on their hands while your people were getting massacred, the empire would actually show up with an army on the planets they ruled.

Then those **** rebels started attacking the government, and everything goes to Sh*t. The rebels topple the government, and suddenly there's no overarching government, and the entire godd*amn galaxy is thrown into anarchy!

It's so cute when the noobs think they can have a conversation with the jester.

Are you trying to be condescending?

Eh. I'm not offended. I've seen some of ErikB's posts. I see why he bugs people (he wants high powered jedi, and people assume that means jedi have to completely outshine non-force users).

I wouldn't mind having a super high action jedi game, but I don't see why that's got to be the only way to play Jedi. I would think the game should fairly easily support both once F&D comes out, and right now (with the species menagerie, the two jedi career paths, and the ways of the force fan supplements I think it could do a passable but not great job of it already).

So I'm legitimately curious:

Couldn't you get the sort of over the top action gameplay ErikB is looking for by saying:

"Create your characters, have 1000exp, don't spend more than 300 of it on a single force power, and I'll be giving exp at triple the normal rate" or some such?

I'd think he's mostly missing a good set of higher level character creation guidelines telling him how many points they get, and what they can spend them on, and what sort of tone/power level would be granted by having those more powerful character creation guidelines. Am I missing something here?

It's so cute when the noobs think they can have a conversation with the jester.

Are you trying to be condescending?

To who?

It's so cute when the noobs think they can have a conversation with the jester.

Are you trying to be condescending?

To who?

When I saw "so cute" and "noobs" in your sentence, it looked to me like you were belittling the new poster that was trying to have a discussion with ErikB.

Eh. I'm not offended. I've seen some of ErikB's posts. I see why he bugs people (he wants high powered jedi, and people assume that means jedi have to completely outshine non-force users).

It's not an assumption.

Am I missing something here?

Heh heh. Oh so much.

And we've had the Rebels are terrorists conversation. Head over to the AoR beta forum for that one.

It's so cute when the noobs think they can have a conversation with the jester.

Are you trying to be condescending?

To who?

When I saw "so cute" and "noobs" in your sentence, it looked to me like you were belittling the new poster that was trying to have a discussion with ErikB.

Yup because it is so cute.

I'm a little new to this system, but couldn't you solve your problem by just starting your campaign at a higher level?

Most roleplaying systems tend not to work very well at high levels.

Certainly that approach could work, but making a game that works as well at high level as it does at low level is, like, a holy grail of game design that no one has ever achieved, not something you can do a sidebar on and then forget about.

And the how the evil of the Empire expresses itself in the daily lives of its victims is certainly another thread, but I think this piece of Rebels concept art shows how to play it:-

So, on that art, are the darker buildings supposed to be the 'new' Imperial additions to the city or are the white buildings an added modernization?

It's so cute when the noobs think they can have a conversation with the jester.

Are you trying to be condescending?

To who?

When I saw "so cute" and "noobs" in your sentence, it looked to me like you were belittling the new poster that was trying to have a discussion with ErikB.

Yup because it is so cute.

Okay, so you are being deliberately unpleasant.

So, on that art, are the darker buildings supposed to be the 'new' Imperial additions to the city or are the white buildings an added modernization?

Do you wanna take a guess? :-)

The idea is the characters on the shows homeworld initially welcomes the Empire thinking it will bring prosperity, but shortly after they arrive the Empire starts acting like, yknow, The Evil Galactic Empire and soon everyone is slaving in factories to build the Emperors war machines, the planet is being strip mined and turned in to a polluted hell hole, fear and repression takes hold and generally the jackboot is stamping on the beings face forever.

Eh. I'm not offended. I've seen some of ErikB's posts. I see why he bugs people (he wants high powered jedi, and people assume that means jedi have to completely outshine non-force users).

It's not an assumption.

How not? You start out with low powered jedi, and in the high powered game you have high powered jedi and high powered non-jedi. Take boba-fett up to 11. Let the non jedi have other special talents that allow them to make use of tech to the degree that they are basically Iron Man, let people ride around piloting souped up battle-droids, and just make being a jedi *One* of the paths to over the top awesomeness.

I'm not saying that's how this game works at high level, I have no idea how it's it works out in play at low levels. Thus far I've only been reading the books and collecting all the options I can find.

But I dont see any reason why (in theory) a non force user can't keep up if he has the same number of Exp. If that's not the case, perhaps force powers should cost more. I suppose if they're not balanced in the main book, the only way they get to be balanced is if people start houseruling and numbercrunching and playtesting different prices until they get them to the point that they match up.

And then you can do a clone wars campaign without feeling useless as a non-jedi.

One thing that you could do to control power levels a bit more, is have a limit on how high you can take options based on how much exp you have, and if you want to have force users be more versatile, you could make those options cheaper without allowing people to dump all their points into one power.

I'm sure it could be done, though it may require some houseruling of character creation/advancement, if FFG didn't balance high level play well enough or if you want some characters to be more versatile without the option of being straight up more powerful.

I'm a little new to this system, but couldn't you solve your problem by just starting your campaign at a higher level?

Most roleplaying systems tend not to work very well at high levels.

Certainly that approach could work, but making a game that works as well at high level as it does at low level is, like, a holy grail of game design that no one has ever achieved, not something you can do a sidebar on and then forget about.

For high level games, I wasn't thinking a sidebar, I was thinking multiple pages - like 8 to 10. I've seen it work pretty well in a bunch of games. It doesn't have to work out all the way to the end, just up to the area you're playing in. For instance, Runequest handles it pretty well all the way up, in my experience, Mutants and Masterminds works out okay until around PL 12, but it breaks down if you go far past that. Shadowrun 4e worked out pretty well at high levels for most character types. Pathfinder/D&D 3e works out pretty well from level 4 to level 14 or so IMO (but sucks at level 1-3, and casters in a 15+ game outshine noncasters due to much greater versatility). NWOD Changeling works out pretty well at high levels, particularly with the rules rebalance in God Machine Chronicles that fixes how offensive options scaled way faster than defensive ones.

Have people played any high level EotE games? how did it work out?

I would think a section in F&D on playing games at varying higher power levels would do a good job supporting prequel jedi. You would just need to make sure you make all the supporting powers they'd want that haven't been covered yet.

How not? You start out with low powered jedi, and in the high powered game you have high powered jedi and high powered non-jedi. Take boba-fett up to 11. Let the non jedi have other special talents that allow them to make use of tech to the degree that they are basically Iron Man, let people ride around piloting souped up battle-droids, and just make being a jedi *One* of the paths to over the top awesomeness.

That is not the assumption I refer to. Most people around here want a game where different characters of the same XP value are of equivilant ability. Erik wants Buffy and the Scoobies. He wants Superman and the rest of the JLA. Yes he wants powerful Jedi and they should eclipse everyone else.

Personally I think all archetypes can play together barring mechanical issues that push Force-users into being over-powered. An issue with past versions of the Star Wars game. Some feel differently for various reasons.

Erik wants Buffy and the Scoobies.

I really don't.

But I would like the game to be able to do Buffy. For those games when the party consists of Buffy, Faith, Angel and Spike. I don't want to be unable to play Buffy because someone out there on a different continent refuses to play anything other than Xander!

So what's to stop you once F&D releases, Erik? It is very easy to power up characters in this game. Just create characters with more XP. What many people do not want is for characters of the same XP level to be quantatively better than others. Many people want to play games combining archetypes and look forward to FFG putting out the game they have said from the beginning would do that. No one is saying you can't play uber-Jedi.

Well, here's my point of view about Buffy and the Scoobies Theory (that seems a Big Bang Theory chapter name XD)

Roleplaying ISN'T a competition about who kills more minions.

Player must (or should) interpretate a role, their own role in te story. Of course, because its or uses to be an action/adventure focused game, tha camera uses to focus the "cooler" and most powerful characters, but, there uses to be a few or tons of episodes where the other not-so-cooler characters are the main plot.

In my personal experience in the Lord of the Rings I used to be a normal (but highly skilled warrior) and whent with another player (a magician) and an important GM NPC. At a tower she went to confront the "evil magic guy" while I was focused on stop the attack from orcs and a troll to a small seaside village.

The "two-speeds game" way like the Padme vs Droids and Obi vs Maul isn't a bad resolution.

I use to think that there aren't "uber" Jedis, just Jedis because this is Spart... Star Wars XD

The idea Jedi is someone normal +1000 EXP doesn't fit with my Jedi idea. Sometimes Jedi in story lack off experiencie due to their clausure in the Temple, but there skills where simply "superior".

I mean, a Jedi (or strong Force user) CAN but not necessarely have it, acces to talents or powers that just are better that the no-Jedi/Force ones. If a Scoudrel has Reflexes +1 (?) a Jedi would have Reflexes +4, just because its training with the Force gives him/her more powers because thats the reallity on SW Universe.

But another important fact to consider is the AWESOME social disavantage that Jedi/Force Users has. Every time they use a Move Object or draw a lightsaber on Imperial Era, tons of ewok-haters-not-so-good white armored shooters come like hordes to hunt them.

Thinking the same or the opposite, I hope that this vision helps anyone of you

PS: And without appointing anyone in special (no one get offended please), try to do more "friendly posts" and respect other ones ideas please. Thank you!

The 1000 XP only quantifies the abilities a character has. Not how much life experience they have. A 1000 XP Jedi could be a character that's been around the block a few times or a very strong noob depending on how you want to play the character. That experience is just fluffy description. And not everyone is going to be playing during the reign of the Empire so a fluff restriction like "using your abilities will attract Empire attention" is just that, fluff and story. Not to say it's wrong, just that it isn't a balancing factor.

As an aside, have you played the Buffy RPG?

The Buffy & The Scoobies mechanic worked out pretty well. The trick was that they closed the gap between them quite a bit by giving the scoobies notably more action/drama/hero/edge/luck points.

So if you built a Buffy, or Faith, you got more points at character creation, but you didn't have nearly as large a pool of luck points, and IIRC luck points cost more for you to improve.

In the Angel RPG it was basically the same, but everyone was more competent, because all the characters are supposed to be professionals instead of teenagers.

--

And splitting the party so that the weak guys do a weak fight and the strong guys do a strong fight doesn't work as well in a game as in a movie. In a game you're much more interested in what your character is doing, in a movie you're interested in all of them. And frequently splitting it like that means the players frequently having to sit and just watch the other players play for a while. That takes away from the fun for many groups.

Off course there is a mixture between talent and experience. Some people are more "naturally talented" that uses to mean from my point of view, that in character design progress they get more base stats.

But with time and experience they adquire EXP and buy "Yellow dice". Not every Jedi/Force User its awesome, but has a lot of more possibilities to become just incredible just because this is Star Wars.

I understand your XP interpretations, but I thought that XP was linked to life experiences that, naturally, improves each one skills. Maybe I didn't understand FFG designers XP idea or simply there isn't an official response and both are correct in our affirmations?

About the "Empire Force Beacon" yep, you are right, and some players and GM's don't care about social problems that beeing an alien or Force Sensitive have. Before my players pick up on of those options I use to warn them about problems just because their simple nature.

Thanks for the reply

PS: Sylrae I was one pseudo-Scoobie in Lord of the Rings XD Hey but I fight trolls, uruks and hordes of orcs!

And splitting the party so that the weak guys do a weak fight and the strong guys do a strong fight doesn't work as well in a game as in a movie. In a game you're much more interested in what your character is doing, in a movie you're interested in all of them. And frequently splitting it like that means the players frequently having to sit and just watch the other players play for a while. That takes away from the fun for many groups.

Probably, I tried a few times and not always uses to go well. But it happened mostly on my first games. Its delicated but its possible to achieve. Mantain a balance tensions between to important scenes its hard but a really nice experiece. Its like, Obi-face-Ani and Yoda-Palpatine. The dual combat wat just incredible! Hard, but possible

As an aside, have you played the Buffy RPG?

The Buffy & The Scoobies mechanic worked out pretty well. The trick was that they closed the gap between them quite a bit by giving the scoobies notably more action/drama/hero/edge/luck points.

So if you built a Buffy, or Faith, you got more points at character creation, but you didn't have nearly as large a pool of luck points, and IIRC luck points cost more for you to improve.

My experience is that it didn't work out that well. Since Drama Points were a limited resource that could only be refreshed by spending XP, the White Hats ended up being relatively stagnant as they had to keep filling thier tank on what made them special (or at least survivable). OTOH, the Heroes made minimal use of Drama Points and just kept upping Attributes, Skills, and Edges (or Merits or whatever) - permanent improvements that just kept widening the gap between them and the White Hats. This in turn made the White Hats have to spend their Drama Points more quickly just to keep up, and the vicious cycle continues.