I'm sure the adventure in the F&D will promote said core book, much like the adventures in the other core books promote them. I am also sure that someone will be able to create characters from EotE and AoR which will be able to run with F&D characters if they so choose. Just as they can use careers from EotE in AoR games using Duty or vice versa, so too will you be able to make a bounty hunter using "Commitment" (or whatever mechanic call it in F&D). Personally if you think characters from each game can not play together then I think you lack imagination. I look forward to being able to mix and match once all three books are complete or I get my hands on the F&D beta anyways.

I'm sure the adventure in the F&D will promote said core book, much like the adventures in the other core books promote them. I am also sure that someone will be able to create characters from EotE and AoR which will be able to run with F&D characters if they so choose. Just as they can use careers from EotE in AoR games using Duty or vice versa, so too will you be able to make a bounty hunter using "Commitment" (or whatever mechanic call it in F&D). Personally if you think characters from each game can not play together then I think you lack imagination. I look forward to being able to mix and match once all three books are complete or I get my hands on the F&D beta anyways.

I know, like coming up with a scenario where multiple class types couldn't have a common purpose? I think a Jedi Master used a pair of smugglers to help a princess and his new Padawan in one adventure I seem to recall......

I know, like coming up with a scenario where multiple class types couldn't have a common purpose? I think a Jedi Master used a pair of smugglers to help a princess and his new Padawan in one adventure I seem to recall......

Oh don't be stupid. That would only lead to a plot where the smugglers had to pay off some Obligation and then the Padawan and the Princess would have to go rescue him from his debtor for failing to do so.

I know, like coming up with a scenario where multiple class types couldn't have a common purpose? I think a Jedi Master used a pair of smugglers to help a princess and his new Padawan in one adventure I seem to recall......

Oh don't be stupid. That would only lead to a plot where the smugglers had to pay off some Obligation and then the Padawan and the Princess would have to go rescue him from his debtor for failing to do so.

There you go Dess, bringing in all that EU again.

For better or worse we are stuck with crystals. I would be rather shocked if they didn't make an appearance with a strong showing in EU. Yeah I just threw some options out there for LS modification but most of what I suggested is stuff you can get by modifying melee weapons. Whats the problem? It's a lightsaber, not a weapon of planetary destruction. Yeah its an awesome minion broom but against rivals and nemesis their effect is halted due to the adversary talent.

The biggest reason I'm for this is because of the awesome hero quest it can be. Searching the forgotten places of the earth with the Force as your guide and companion, deal with hazards and hostiles, and after all is said and done you take a memento that actually improves you.

Shrug. Wait till they have adventures out for the other two games. I suspect they will be remarkably different in feel.

I believe that you're correct, and I hope that they do have different feels. Since they went through with the idea of separate but compatible game lines, I hope that they cover considerably different themes even though the mechanics are compatible. .That means that I do believe that most EE characters and FD characters, while mechanically compatible, will be unlikely to find the adventures for the other game lines very appropriate for them. Sure, your Jedi might call upon a smuggler to get him to the site of his mission, but that smuggler is likely to feel like a fish out of water (even though he's mechanically able to contribute). Likewise, if there's a mission that the smuggler and his crew are interested in on the way back, that Jedi might find little in it for him (even though, again, he's mechanically able to participate).

We started the second chapter of our Beyond The Rim session last week and the best part, by far, was our politico being completely out of his element trekking through the jungle complaining about mud, rain and mosquitos and eventually using his light pistol to save the day by give a Nexus his final 2 wounds. That is roleplaying as far as I'm concerned, not a group of people doing what they are trained to do, no, a band of completely different types having an adventure together.

Something else on the subject of lightsabers: the Forsaken Jedi in the EotE Adversary list has a saber with the Defensive 1 and Deflection 2 characteristics, which the normal profile for the saber doesn't have, presumably because the Forsaken is more able to use it with the Force. Do you think basic sabers in F&D will have these qualities?

Lightsabers had those qualities way back in the EotE beta but they were dropped when it was very apparent that those qualities made lightsabers entirely too uber. They are only in the NPC stats because they need to account for abilities that haven't been covered yet. Lightsabers will, in all likelihood, appear as they are now.

According to Jay Little's response during an Order 66 appearance around the time the EotE core rulebook came out, the Forsaken Jedi has the benefit of "hidden talents" that PCs in that game don't have access to. So lightsabers in F&D are probably going to have the same stats as they do in EotE & AoR, but PCs will at that point have access to those previously hidden talents, presumably allowing them to add ranks of Defensive and Deflection to their lightsaber.

For better or worse we are stuck with crystals. I would be rather shocked if they didn't make an appearance with a strong showing in EU. Yeah I just threw some options out there for LS modification but most of what I suggested is stuff you can get by modifying melee weapons. Whats the problem? It's a lightsaber, not a weapon of planetary destruction. Yeah its an awesome minion broom but against rivals and nemesis their effect is halted due to the adversary talent.

The biggest reason I'm for this is because of the awesome hero quest it can be. Searching the forgotten places of the earth with the Force as your guide and companion, deal with hazards and hostiles, and after all is said and done you take a memento that actually improves you.

Have you actually run combat encounters where one or more PCs were using ligthsabers with some degree of skill? I did, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that a base lightsaber is freaking deadly in the hands of a competent user, which F&D will enable. Given the sheer damage output thanks to the Breach 1 quality, most Rivals are going to dropped in a single hit as they generally lack the ranks in Adversary that would make hitting them more difficult, enabling the lightsaber wielder to either roll enough successes to boost the damage already, or enough Advantage to inflict a doozy of a critical injury, possibly enough to outright kill the Rival if they get a decent roll on their percentile dice. Nemeses are only slightly less vulnerable due to much higher Wound Thresholds and ranks in Adversary, with the Forsaken Jedi taking the cake in terms of defensive abilities (attack difficulties are upgraded five times and setback dice get added).

In case the above hasn't made it clear, lightsabers in this game are far more dangerous weapons than they were in d20 or even D6. They don't need any kind of direct boost to their in-game stats. The only weapons that really rival a lightsaber based on pure stats are rifles with Auto-fire and disruptors due to their high Vicious rating and minimum critical injury result.

And no, we're not "stuck" with lightsaber crystals having various different effects as you seem to believe. As I noted earlier in the thread, the closest the EU has come to addressing the matter is that "yes, different crystals can be used in a lightsaber, but the most they generally do give the lightsaber a different color blade."

Since they went through with the idea of separate but compatible game lines, I hope that they cover considerably different themes even though the mechanics are compatible.

Aye. I'd like to think the triple dipping with core books isn't a total swizz on FFGs part.

Probably won't be though. You are gonna get EotE branded books like this:-

and AoR branded books in red and F&D books with Jedi stuff in, and over time the identities of each game will emerge.

I have run combat with lightsabers and one of those combatants got taken down from long range with a BLASTER RIFLE! Yes it is a dangerous weapon, but its inherent flaw is its range or lack there of. For any character focusing on force powers or lightsabers there is another collecting lethal blows, deadly accuracy, and a tricked out sniper weapon.

In the end I am arguing for customization, not how high the lightsaber pedestal should be. Be it crystals, special emitters, or some concept none of us have considered, i am willing to bet they incorporate some system to make the lightsaber you build unique.

In case the above hasn't made it clear, lightsabers in this game are far more dangerous weapons than they were in d20 or even D6. They don't need any kind of direct boost to their in-game stats. The only weapons that really rival a lightsaber based on pure stats are rifles with Auto-fire and disruptors due to their high Vicious rating and minimum critical injury result.

Oh, so much this.

It's interesting the game gives you the stats, but NOT the skill for them. It's kinda saying; 'look, here it is for those who absolutely must have Jedi, but we're warning you it will totally unbalance your game'.

Now imagine a whole party with them. I'm somehow hoping F&D won't be power-creep, but that's my fear.

You probably missed it, but I remarked that the guys who designed this system, folks that are paid professionals with years of experience at this, are concerned with every player at the table having a fun and satisfying experience. And that means not allowing Jedi PCs to be demi-gods right out the gate, so that the inevitable mixed-party groups combining characters from EotE and AoR won't have those PCs feeling like they're just the supporting cast to the Force-users.

Huh, I was gonna say something like this, then Donovan goes and says it more eloquently.

But... yeah. Some of us were drawn back to Star Wars by EoE because of the emphasis on the classic era, and we like our Jedi subtle like they were in this era.

Before midichlorians, before Jedi Town, before Clown Wars or Farce Unleashed and all those other anime/manga influences that have crept into the EU since we've been away.

Nothing wrong if you wanna play these things, Erik (assuming you ARE playing) but those of us who want balanced Jedi should get them by default.

I really think this concern over mods in misplaced. The reason I don't think there will be any is because with no HPs the devs are saying this is as good as a lightsaber gets in the hands of a non Jedi. Jedi I'm sure will have all manner of ways to spend FPs to buff the attack roll, buff the damage output, enable the ability to deflect, etc. The concerns over mods are misplaced and overblown.

It's interesting the game gives you the stats, but NOT the skill for them. It's kinda saying; 'look, here it is for those who absolutely must have Jedi, but we're warning you it will totally unbalance your game'.

It has always rather implied to me that they made up the stats for the lightsaber without investing an awful lot of thought in to considering that they were later going to have to make a game that consisted largely of skilled swordsmen whacking each other with them.

But... yeah. Some of us were drawn back to Star Wars by EoE because of the emphasis on the classic era, and we like our Jedi subtle like they were in this era.

Before midichlorians, before Jedi Town, before Clown Wars or Farce Unleashed and all those other anime/manga influences that have crept into the EU since we've been away.

If F&D turns out not to be to your taste Is there any really pressing reason you couldn't keep buying and enjoying the EotE line and add Farce and Destiny branded books to your naughty list?

If F&D turns out not to be to your taste Is there any really pressing reason you couldn't keep buying and enjoying the EotE line and add Farce and Destiny branded books to your naughty list?

That's true.

But I get the feeling it's people who want overpowered Jedi who will be disappointed. Everything I've read from FFG R&D seems to suggest they did Jedi last because they have been unbalancing in previous SW games, and they really wanted to get them 'right' this time.

Also, with the discontent from the 40K games that are not compatible with each other, they have indicated that it is their design intention that these versions of their game are balanced with each other.

So while it's possible that they may do a complete 'bait & switch' and have overpowered anime Jedi, I'm thinking that it's more likely they will at least make an attempt to balance the various games. How successful that will be is anyone's guess.

Bear in mind that it's much, much easier for players to add munchkin rules to a balanced game than it is to try to balance an overpowered game. If you want anime Jedi it's far easier for you to just make characters with a dozen Force dice and maxed-out skill trees than it is to strip those elements from an unbalanced game.

Shrug. Wait till they have adventures out for the other two games. I suspect they will be remarkably different in feel.

I believe that you're correct, and I hope that they do have different feels. Since they went through with the idea of separate but compatible game lines, I hope that they cover considerably different themes even though the mechanics are compatible. .That means that I do believe that most EE characters and FD characters, while mechanically compatible, will be unlikely to find the adventures for the other game lines very appropriate for them. Sure, your Jedi might call upon a smuggler to get him to the site of his mission, but that smuggler is likely to feel like a fish out of water (even though he's mechanically able to contribute). Likewise, if there's a mission that the smuggler and his crew are interested in on the way back, that Jedi might find little in it for him (even though, again, he's mechanically able to participate).

Huh? Isn't that what Star Wars is and has been from the get go? All these different types sharing adventures in a Galaxy Far Away? You talk about fish out of water moments as if they are a bad thing, while I have come to find they make for the most enjoyable roleplaying you can have at your table.

We started the second chapter of our Beyond The Rim session last week and the best part, by far, was our politico being completely out of his element trekking through the jungle complaining about mud, rain and mosquitos and eventually using his light pistol to save the day by give a Nexus his final 2 wounds. That is roleplaying as far as I'm concerned, not a group of people doing what they are trained to do, no, a band of completely different types having an adventure together.

The band of misfits stumbling into situations beyond their expectations is certainly one type of story, but one that can get tiresome if repeated over and over. Sometimes people want to play a team united in doing what they are expecting to do.

It's interesting the game gives you the stats, but NOT the skill for them. It's kinda saying; 'look, here it is for those who absolutely must have Jedi, but we're warning you it will totally unbalance your game'.

As Donovan took care to note though, from what's attributed to Jay Little, the "hidden talents" suggests that "further lightsaber buffing" would be done through character abilities/talents, since "for-now NPC-exclusive abilities/talents" is a known propensity of EotE/AoR design. It does seem to me though, considering how powerful certain melee weapons can be when customized, that the "power potential" of the lightsaber is front-loaded in EotE/AoR in the sense of "hilariously powerful melee weapon but no ability to buff it" whereas a customized melee weapon such as a jury-rigged Superior vibro-axe can be almost as or theoretically even more powerful with the right upgrades/rolls.

As Logan Ambrose added though, it's a melee weapon, all of which have only range Engaged, with all that that implies...

Shrug. Wait till they have adventures out for the other two games. I suspect they will be remarkably different in feel.

I believe that you're correct, and I hope that they do have different feels. Since they went through with the idea of separate but compatible game lines, I hope that they cover considerably different themes even though the mechanics are compatible. .That means that I do believe that most EE characters and FD characters, while mechanically compatible, will be unlikely to find the adventures for the other game lines very appropriate for them. Sure, your Jedi might call upon a smuggler to get him to the site of his mission, but that smuggler is likely to feel like a fish out of water (even though he's mechanically able to contribute). Likewise, if there's a mission that the smuggler and his crew are interested in on the way back, that Jedi might find little in it for him (even though, again, he's mechanically able to participate).

Huh? Isn't that what Star Wars is and has been from the get go? All these different types sharing adventures in a Galaxy Far Away? You talk about fish out of water moments as if they are a bad thing, while I have come to find they make for the most enjoyable roleplaying you can have at your table.

We started the second chapter of our Beyond The Rim session last week and the best part, by far, was our politico being completely out of his element trekking through the jungle complaining about mud, rain and mosquitos and eventually using his light pistol to save the day by give a Nexus his final 2 wounds. That is roleplaying as far as I'm concerned, not a group of people doing what they are trained to do, no, a band of completely different types having an adventure together.

The band of misfits stumbling into situations beyond their expectations is certainly one type of story, but one that can get tiresome if repeated over and over. Sometimes people want to play a team united in doing what they are expecting to do.

All stories get tiresome if they get repeated over and over. Not the best of points if you ask me.

The Legacy Era comic book line is an excellent example of diverse character archetypes working together. It is why it is one of the few EU stories that I enjoy. And I only have four of WEG's Adventure Journals, but from those four they gave the impression that Star Wars universe could be played with a diverse group often. As I said before, maybe if you lack imagination you can't, but I can see much offered in these books both individually and all together.

And a majority of stories have been told at this point. Everyone everywhere is rehashing them. It is in the delivery, though, that determines your success. If your group is having fun then you are doing it right. Even if you are running Halcyonmane and the Three Wookies or the Story of the Three Hutts.

Sometimes all you need is a good story, well told. It doesn't have to be complicated or original, just a simple, enjoyable experience. Even the Holy Trilogy wasn't all original; it borrowed heavily from pulp fiction that came before it.

And that's okay. If we could only enjoy stories that had never been told before, we never would have gotten past The Epic of Gilgamesh.

I have run combat with lightsabers and one of those combatants got taken down from long range with a BLASTER RIFLE! Yes it is a dangerous weapon, but its inherent flaw is its range or lack there of. For any character focusing on force powers or lightsabers there is another collecting lethal blows, deadly accuracy, and a tricked out sniper weapon.

But did that person with the lightsaber have any of the defensive abilities that Jedi are known for having, such as the ability to deflect blaster fire? Otherwise, that person is no different than someone wielding a force pike or a vibro-ax. There's a reason some of the earliest lessons that Jedi-in-training are taught is how to use a lightsaber to defend against blaster fire.

2P51 has pretty much hit the nail on the head. With zero hard points to work from, the design team has pretty much said "you're not going to be able to modify these weapons the way you can most other weapons." Considering that the bulk of the Jedi in the EU don't have tricked out lightsabers (about the only notable exception is modifying the core design to allow the weapon to function underwater). Even the electrum plating that Mace Windu and Sidious used on their lightsabers was purely a cosmetic alteration. The only real source for "extensive modifications" are from video games, and as I noted above, video games and table-top RPGs have two very different design goals.

Forsaken Jedi right out of the EotE core book. The groups sniper took him down in one shot

Regardless of if they will have modifications or not, I'm still hoping they will.

Bear in mind that it's much, much easier for players to add munchkin rules to a balanced game than it is to try to balance an overpowered game. If you want anime Jedi it's far easier for you to just make characters with a dozen Force dice and maxed-out skill trees than it is to strip those elements from an unbalanced game.

I'll vouch for that. I intentionally wrote-up "munchkin rules" for Jedi/Force-users for the RCR and Saga Edition games, in large part inspired by the stuff seen in the Clone Wars animated series that was released prior to Episode III. It was an option, one that I clearly advised would break the balance of the respective games. And GM Chris said it best during an Order 66 segment when commenting on them, that he'd never let those rules near his table, but they'd be great for emulating Starkiller if that's what a GM wanted. I played in a Dawn of Defiance campaign using a Jedi that made use of those same rules, and the only thing keeping my character from utterly dominating the game was myself, as the character had largely adopted Spider-Man's and Superman's approach of "only use as much force as necessary" when dealing with adversaries. And I'd never play that character again as by campaign's end he was simply too powerful to have been allowed in the first place (though a large portion of that was the uncanny knack I had of rolling natural 20's on Use the Force checks, ensuring maximum effect on powers and a steady stream of temporary Force Points to work with).

As for having "super anime Jedi" in this system, it's already very easy to accomplish. Simply change the requirement of spending extra Force Points to activate Upgrades (much as the EotE Beta didn't include that requirement in the first place) to only needing to spend additional Force Points if you want to activate an Upgrade more than once. If that's not quite enough, then drop the XP costs of those Upgrades by five, to a minimum of 5 XP per Upgrade. Before the GM knows it, they've got Force-users that simply dominate the game, particularly those that focused on the Move and Influence powers.

But your right, in that the FFG design team want to provide a balanced experience for as many folks as possible. And as you've noted, a large part of the buzz around EotE was that Jedi weren't center-stage, a much-needed breath of fresh air in the wake of recent media that all but shoved Jedi characters down one's throat. I can't imagine the system would have gotten the same attention if Force-users were front and center rather than being pushed to the wings.

I don't think FFG hate Jedi and Jedi fans. I think they just wanted to have a big new release for Gencon each year.

It's almost like FFG has a plan for how they want to put out their game.